1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:03,960 Chris Rutkowski: conversation will come up again, you know, I 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,780 didn't see something but, you know, on both so on so it 3 00:00:09,780 --> 00:00:11,160 certainly saw some. 4 00:00:11,730 --> 00:00:15,180 John Greenewald: When it comes to Canada, one man has arguably 5 00:00:15,180 --> 00:00:19,230 spent more time than anyone digging through that country's 6 00:00:19,230 --> 00:00:27,690 UFO files. And his name is Chris Rutkoski. He became so well 7 00:00:27,690 --> 00:00:31,470 known with investigating the unknown, the Canadian government 8 00:00:31,470 --> 00:00:37,830 enlisted his help to be their official consultant on UFOs. And 9 00:00:37,830 --> 00:00:41,790 that's exactly what he did. For more than 20 years, 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,850 Chris Rutkowski: we have a continuous record of UFO 11 00:00:44,850 --> 00:00:48,360 investigations at one level or another in some depth or 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,350 another, right from the dawn of the early beginning of flying 13 00:00:52,350 --> 00:00:53,940 saucers to now 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,900 John Greenewald: join meters as Chris steps into the vault, to 15 00:00:57,900 --> 00:01:01,260 explore what the current situation is with Canada and 16 00:01:01,260 --> 00:01:06,300 UFOs. And what has he discovered in the nearly five decades he's 17 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:10,920 been looking into the phenomenon. Stay tuned, you're 18 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,860 about to journey inside the black vault. 19 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:42,420 That's right, everybody. As always, thank you so much for 20 00:01:42,420 --> 00:01:45,570 tuning in and making this your live stream or your podcast of 21 00:01:45,570 --> 00:01:48,240 choice. I'm your host, John Greenewald, Jr, owner and 22 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,330 founder, creator of the black vault.com. And I'm always 23 00:01:51,330 --> 00:01:54,690 excited about shows where I get to number one, speak to a 24 00:01:54,690 --> 00:01:57,930 friend. But number two speak to somebody incredibly 25 00:01:57,930 --> 00:02:03,390 knowledgeable. And of course, about documents. And what we're 26 00:02:03,390 --> 00:02:05,790 going to be diving into, we're kind of traveling back to 27 00:02:05,790 --> 00:02:08,760 Canada. We've talked about it on this channel, a little bit in 28 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,080 the past. But now this is the man in my view, the top 29 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,080 researcher from that country, Canada, Chris road. kowski. 30 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,920 Chris, thank you so much for taking some time and joining us 31 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:24,660 today. Glad to be here. It's an honor to have you your name 32 00:02:24,660 --> 00:02:28,950 comes up obviously all the time. Well, last time I talked about 33 00:02:28,950 --> 00:02:32,340 Canada, we talked about your last time I've seen documents 34 00:02:32,370 --> 00:02:37,770 we've talked about. The audience saw it in the introduction, but 35 00:02:37,770 --> 00:02:42,330 your newest Canada's UFOs declassified this book is 36 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,200 available for ordering now I highly recommend it just got my 37 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,430 copy myself, literally just hours ago before the show as 38 00:02:50,430 --> 00:02:53,940 fate would have it. So pretty excited about that. So everybody 39 00:02:53,940 --> 00:02:56,790 make sure that you check that out. Chris, you've been on the 40 00:02:56,790 --> 00:03:01,650 program before but I if memory serves, I think it was before I 41 00:03:01,650 --> 00:03:06,090 even started doing a video broadcast. So I'm just going to 42 00:03:06,090 --> 00:03:09,270 treat this like you've never been on the show before. And 43 00:03:09,270 --> 00:03:13,620 that way my audience which has been growing considerably since 44 00:03:13,620 --> 00:03:16,950 then get to know you a little bit. So can I start with you 45 00:03:16,950 --> 00:03:20,520 having a little bit of your background and go through about 46 00:03:20,610 --> 00:03:24,060 how you got into UFOs? And what is it exactly that you do? 47 00:03:25,530 --> 00:03:29,250 Chris Rutkowski: Sure. I'm a science writer. And I have 48 00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:35,490 degrees in astronomy and education. I started into the 49 00:03:35,490 --> 00:03:41,370 UFO thing back in the 70s. So yeah, I'm I'm that old. And my 50 00:03:41,370 --> 00:03:45,510 mentors actually included both Allen Hynek and Stan Friedman 51 00:03:46,620 --> 00:03:51,630 met them both in the 70s. And I was absolutely fascinated to 52 00:03:51,780 --> 00:03:56,220 listen to them. back then. I was just starting into university. 53 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:01,800 And getting into astronomy and my astronomy prof was really 54 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,000 upset that people were calling in to report UFOs. And he 55 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,310 thought the whole thing was nonsense, nothing to worry 56 00:04:08,310 --> 00:04:11,820 about. And yet these people were calling interrupting his 57 00:04:11,820 --> 00:04:14,700 research. So I said I happened to be in his office one day, I 58 00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:17,520 said, Why don't you just let me take the phone calls for you. My 59 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,030 my own little desk is right around the corner. And he said, 60 00:04:21,030 --> 00:04:24,000 Sure. So I ended up taking the calls from people and I ended up 61 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,080 talking with people and listening to their stories. I 62 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,830 would travel out to their home though to the farm houses, 63 00:04:32,070 --> 00:04:35,400 listen to their stories. I could explain, of course, most of what 64 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,940 they were reporting as stars and planets and planes and whatnot. 65 00:04:38,940 --> 00:04:43,230 But there were some cases that were a bit puzzling. And I just 66 00:04:43,230 --> 00:04:45,330 sort of shrugged my shoulders and thought, Well, I'm not sure 67 00:04:45,330 --> 00:04:48,540 what these were. But there had been some flaps and waves going 68 00:04:48,540 --> 00:04:53,790 on in Canada in the 70s. And both Hynek and Friedman had come 69 00:04:53,790 --> 00:04:59,850 up and the media has sort of latched on to them to get more 70 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:03,510 into permission. And the media is had asked if there was 71 00:05:03,510 --> 00:05:06,930 somebody locally who was doing it. And my, my prophets sort of 72 00:05:06,930 --> 00:05:10,800 pushed me out in front of the, the media by having the lecture 73 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,490 to the largest in the lecture to the largest Hall in the 74 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,820 university, which is like 500 people about what I had heard 75 00:05:17,820 --> 00:05:22,860 from all the witnesses. And I've sort of became overnight the the 76 00:05:22,860 --> 00:05:27,000 UFO guy. And it's been quite an interesting ride a little bit 77 00:05:27,030 --> 00:05:32,910 after that I published my first book in the, in the early 90s. 78 00:05:33,330 --> 00:05:37,410 And I know I've done some TV shows, you know, like yourself. 79 00:05:38,610 --> 00:05:42,300 I, you know, I was actually on the original Unsolved Mysteries, 80 00:05:42,990 --> 00:05:47,160 talking about some Canadian reports and cases. So I sort of 81 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,820 been involved in immersed and I'm fascinated with the UFO 82 00:05:50,820 --> 00:05:54,300 phenomenon and my background in astronomy, and comes from a 83 00:05:54,330 --> 00:05:57,060 scientific perspective that, you know, I don't think we have any 84 00:05:57,060 --> 00:06:00,000 proof that the aliens are here, there's some interesting 85 00:06:00,060 --> 00:06:03,840 evidence that suggests that something unusual is going on. 86 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,320 I'm a bit of a doubting Thomas, but I call a spade a spade, if 87 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,680 something seems to have an explanation, I will say, Hey, 88 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,610 that's a good explanation or a bad explanation. But at the same 89 00:06:14,610 --> 00:06:21,270 time, there are cases that are unusual in about the 1988 89. I 90 00:06:21,270 --> 00:06:25,440 took it upon myself to create what I call the Canadian UFO 91 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:30,120 survey. And I worked with researchers across Canada to 92 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,420 combine all the data that had been reported to various groups 93 00:06:33,420 --> 00:06:37,020 and organizations. So I had a snapshot of what really was 94 00:06:37,020 --> 00:06:41,550 being reported as UFOs. And you know, we've ever stuff that was 95 00:06:41,550 --> 00:06:46,020 on in on TV and radio and and tabloids, and magazines and 96 00:06:46,020 --> 00:06:49,020 books. But what were people really seeing what was really 97 00:06:49,020 --> 00:06:53,280 being reported. So I gathered up the data, and we started 98 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:56,580 publishing the Canadian UFO survey, which is now in its 99 00:06:56,580 --> 00:07:02,220 33rd, year, 32nd year, something like that. And we've amassed 100 00:07:02,730 --> 00:07:07,920 something like 25,000 separate UFO reports from Canada over 101 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,640 that 30 year period. And it's not just reports from the 102 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:18,780 average person, the person on the street, but going into the 103 00:07:18,780 --> 00:07:22,110 government documents a little bit. Canada, the good Canadian 104 00:07:22,110 --> 00:07:24,720 government has a quite an interesting record of 105 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:31,410 investigating and recording UFO reports. You know, there Canada 106 00:07:31,410 --> 00:07:36,810 actually had two UFO projects itself, your listeners might 107 00:07:36,810 --> 00:07:40,050 know of them project magnate and project second story, they were 108 00:07:40,050 --> 00:07:45,840 concurrent with the early blue book in the 50s. And in about 109 00:07:45,870 --> 00:07:52,830 the 1966 ish period, the Royal Canadian Air Force, which had 110 00:07:52,830 --> 00:07:57,000 been the main body that was investigating UFOs at the time, 111 00:07:58,410 --> 00:08:01,020 they had to sort of sided with Bluebook, and saying that there 112 00:08:01,020 --> 00:08:06,030 really isn't anything of defense interest or security interest in 113 00:08:06,030 --> 00:08:09,090 the UFOs. So they sort of wanted to shuffle it off on to 114 00:08:09,090 --> 00:08:12,060 somebody. So they, they convinced something called the 115 00:08:12,060 --> 00:08:15,900 National Research Council of Canada, which is kind of the 116 00:08:15,990 --> 00:08:20,070 equivalent of the Smithsonian, I suppose, a scientific body that 117 00:08:20,070 --> 00:08:23,490 was very national. And the National Research Council took 118 00:08:23,490 --> 00:08:27,570 on the task of taking the UFO reports, having things reported 119 00:08:27,570 --> 00:08:30,690 to them. They're interested primarily in looking for 120 00:08:30,870 --> 00:08:33,480 meteorites. And the idea was that a lot of the lights in the 121 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,810 sky that were called UFOs, are actually meteors. And if you had 122 00:08:36,810 --> 00:08:40,020 enough triangulation of points, you can find the meteorites on 123 00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:43,650 the ground. That's why they were investigating UFOs. And what's 124 00:08:43,650 --> 00:08:47,280 curious is, the National Research Council of Canada 125 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:53,610 itself, didn't really have a lot of scientists. On board, they 126 00:08:53,610 --> 00:08:57,120 had some, but you know, Canada is pretty large, just like the 127 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,870 United States. They needed an organization or a body that, you 128 00:09:00,870 --> 00:09:04,050 know, had offices pretty well everywhere. So they actually 129 00:09:04,050 --> 00:09:08,550 enlisted the help of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, because 130 00:09:08,550 --> 00:09:11,820 there are detachments right across the country and in many, 131 00:09:11,820 --> 00:09:15,090 many towns and cities. And so the Royal Canadian amount of 132 00:09:15,090 --> 00:09:21,480 police investigated UFO reports from the citizens and also some 133 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,840 professionals and fed them through the National Research 134 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:29,610 Council. And so they're this body of documented UFO reports 135 00:09:29,610 --> 00:09:32,250 from the from the investigations of the Royal Canadian Mounted 136 00:09:32,250 --> 00:09:35,940 Police, and from the analysis of the National Research Council, 137 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:42,120 to about 1995 When things changed, and I'll get to that a 138 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,980 little bit later. But, you know, from after Bluebook died, 139 00:09:47,010 --> 00:09:49,980 they're still where these reports are being investigated 140 00:09:49,980 --> 00:09:52,590 by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and National Research 141 00:09:52,590 --> 00:09:55,200 Council. And as a matter of fact, the the Royal Canadian Air 142 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,680 Force was still involved, because there were reports from 143 00:09:58,710 --> 00:10:01,350 military personnel that were finding their way through to. 144 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:07,590 So. And we have these documents, as a matter of fact, the Library 145 00:10:07,590 --> 00:10:10,320 and Archives Canada, which is the equivalent, again of I 146 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:16,140 suppose, the National Archives and in Washington, you know, 147 00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:20,580 collected these these papers and reports, and they digitized 148 00:10:20,970 --> 00:10:25,650 about 9000 of them and made them available to the public and 149 00:10:25,650 --> 00:10:28,740 Canada. And so a lot of people, including you, I noticed you 150 00:10:28,740 --> 00:10:31,500 have them on your site, and a few other people have them. So 151 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:37,110 there's like 9000 documents, which, you know, herald the UFO 152 00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:41,700 investigation era of Canada, from 1947. And I think the 153 00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:46,350 digitization stopped in about 1981 82. But of course, the 154 00:10:46,350 --> 00:10:49,170 investigations and the documentation continued after 155 00:10:49,170 --> 00:10:53,010 that point. But, you know, think about it 9000 pages of documents 156 00:10:53,220 --> 00:10:57,120 on UFOs for in government files is nothing to sneeze at. Really. 157 00:10:57,570 --> 00:10:59,700 John Greenewald: Yeah. And I know what documents are talking 158 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:01,860 about. And I want to jump in really quick, just to clarify 159 00:11:01,860 --> 00:11:06,660 something. So post project Bluebook. They mean, in Canada 160 00:11:06,660 --> 00:11:10,500 continued the investigations. Was there a reason why was there 161 00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:14,340 a scope that they publicly would announce? Was it a national 162 00:11:14,340 --> 00:11:18,780 security interest? Was it a, you know, was it something else? I 163 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:22,200 mean, what was the reason? Because after 22 years, the US 164 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,830 has not wasted time, there's nothing there. Whether that's a 165 00:11:25,830 --> 00:11:30,660 lie, or real or not. And regardless of that, what was 166 00:11:30,660 --> 00:11:33,570 Canada's mindset? Did they feel that there was much more to 167 00:11:33,570 --> 00:11:34,020 this? 168 00:11:35,550 --> 00:11:37,800 Chris Rutkowski: Well, because the National Research Council 169 00:11:37,980 --> 00:11:41,790 was the body investigating, they looked at UFOs as a scientific 170 00:11:41,790 --> 00:11:45,480 problem, not the defense problem that the Royal Canadian Air 171 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,900 Force was looking at. So because they're treating it in a 172 00:11:49,170 --> 00:11:53,880 slightly different way. They're trying to come up with other 173 00:11:53,880 --> 00:12:01,230 explanations. There was some studies of that were done by the 174 00:12:01,230 --> 00:12:04,230 University of Toronto Institute for Aerospace studies, for 175 00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:08,310 example, in from space science perspective. So there were there 176 00:12:08,310 --> 00:12:11,340 was a different perspective. And it wasn't from defense, it was 177 00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:14,730 from a scientific viewpoint. And that is pretty different 178 00:12:14,850 --> 00:12:18,060 approach when you think about it between the blue book approach 179 00:12:18,060 --> 00:12:20,880 and then something later, as a matter of fact, I'd have to say 180 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,630 that the scientific approach is more akin to what we're seeing 181 00:12:24,630 --> 00:12:27,480 now from, for example, the Galileo Project, getting 182 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,570 scientists involved. And yet scientists had been involved in 183 00:12:30,570 --> 00:12:35,100 Canada, throughout the 60s into the mid 1990s. 184 00:12:35,999 --> 00:12:39,569 John Greenewald: So what was keeping them involved in this 185 00:12:39,569 --> 00:12:42,479 from that scientific perspective? What what are you 186 00:12:42,479 --> 00:12:46,139 seeing in the documents? Or maybe hearing from, from those 187 00:12:46,139 --> 00:12:49,679 scientists? What was it that kept them going? 188 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,710 Chris Rutkowski: Well, they considered it a scientific 189 00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:57,120 problem. And they were convinced that if they could educate the 190 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:02,850 public enough about what these UFOs were, and certainly many of 191 00:13:02,850 --> 00:13:05,100 them were turning out to be stars and planets and 192 00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:09,390 satellites, and whatever, that they were doing a service to the 193 00:13:09,390 --> 00:13:14,100 Canadian public by educating the population. So it was kind of a 194 00:13:14,190 --> 00:13:19,290 an education approach. And that's what kept many of them 195 00:13:19,290 --> 00:13:23,280 going. But they got really jaded towards the end. And by the 196 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,960 1980s. There, the amount of investigation that was actually 197 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,310 occurring had dropped off quite considerably. And by looking 198 00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:34,710 through some of the documents, some of the exchanges between 199 00:13:35,580 --> 00:13:39,030 the investigating scientists and the researchers and the public, 200 00:13:40,140 --> 00:13:42,960 you could tell that there was some sort of a little bit of 201 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,820 snarkiness, a little bit of discord brewing. And as a matter 202 00:13:47,820 --> 00:13:52,050 of fact, some of the public sort of rose up and said, What's the 203 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,440 what's wrong with these government officials telling us 204 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,600 that what we're seeing is nothing more than stars and 205 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,020 planets, we know what we've seen. We know stars and planets 206 00:14:01,020 --> 00:14:04,320 when we when we see them. As matter of fact, they're probably 207 00:14:04,410 --> 00:14:08,370 trying to cover something up. And this actually was a source 208 00:14:08,370 --> 00:14:12,840 or one of the origins of the conspiracy theories. And 209 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,210 unfortunately, some of it came from Canada. 210 00:14:16,710 --> 00:14:18,960 John Greenewald: I know that you said that you obviously have a 211 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,040 scientific background, or the same reasonings applying to you 212 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,790 meaning that you felt that there was maybe an educational aspect 213 00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:30,870 to this to help the people. What what kept Chris going since the 214 00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:33,360 1970s to today? Well, that's 215 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,300 Chris Rutkowski: a good question. I find the UFO 216 00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:40,590 phenomenon fascinating. And when I say that, I mean not just the 217 00:14:40,590 --> 00:14:45,570 reports, but the books, the ziens the conferences, the 218 00:14:45,870 --> 00:14:49,560 everything from the average person on the street witness to 219 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,970 the contactees to the way that the scientific establishment is 220 00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:58,950 treating the UFO phenomenon. I find it as a as a social issue, 221 00:14:59,130 --> 00:15:03,630 a psychologic Galicia, in fact, I've said in one of my books, 222 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,940 that if UFOs are not ultimately a physical phenomenon, they are 223 00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:13,230 at the very least a social or a psychological phenomenon. And in 224 00:15:13,260 --> 00:15:18,000 any of those cases, it's worth investing some research and some 225 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,910 money to study it more carefully, because it really 226 00:15:20,910 --> 00:15:24,630 affects a lot of people. When you think about it, the polls 227 00:15:24,630 --> 00:15:28,710 have shown that about 10% of the North American population, 228 00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:31,830 Canada and the United States believe they've seen a UFO, 229 00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:37,380 that's a significant number. And that suggests that, you know, if 230 00:15:37,380 --> 00:15:40,500 there's something going on, we should be looking at it a little 231 00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:41,190 more carefully. 232 00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:44,400 John Greenewald: So I have to ask the million dollar question 233 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,130 comes up all the time, you know, in chat rooms, and social media 234 00:15:47,130 --> 00:15:50,790 and so on, especially those that aren't acquainted with UFOs. As 235 00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:54,900 much as maybe you and I are. The question mark Always leans 236 00:15:54,900 --> 00:15:58,500 towards, Hey, is it alien? You know, is there that extra 237 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:04,410 terrestrial route to the cause of these phenomena? I use plural 238 00:16:04,410 --> 00:16:09,720 or the phenomenon? Let me ask you, before we kind of dive 239 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,950 deeper into the evidence, and what you've seen, is, is that 240 00:16:13,950 --> 00:16:16,740 still a possibility to you? Are you convinced of that 241 00:16:16,740 --> 00:16:19,920 possibility? Or do you feel that there are a lot of fascinating 242 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,030 aspects to this? But aliens is probably last on the list? Hmm. 243 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,720 Chris Rutkowski: Well, I'm certainly a doubting Thomas, 244 00:16:27,810 --> 00:16:31,440 there's no question of that. But at the same time, my astronomy 245 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,670 background, you know, talking with other my colleagues, you 246 00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:38,610 know, the the usual argument stars are so far away, if they 247 00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:41,670 have planets with life, you know, it's hard to get here from 248 00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:44,190 there. We don't have any evidence that interstellar 249 00:16:44,190 --> 00:16:48,060 travel is possible. But you know, I side with the the group 250 00:16:48,060 --> 00:16:52,380 that says yes, but our son is an average star. And if there is a 251 00:16:52,380 --> 00:16:56,610 star that's maybe a little bit older than our Sun, let's say, 252 00:16:57,270 --> 00:17:01,350 you know, let's be conservative and save 500,000 years or two, a 253 00:17:01,350 --> 00:17:06,060 million years, a planet orbiting that, that star might have a 254 00:17:06,120 --> 00:17:08,490 little bit of a jump on us. And perhaps if there's a 255 00:17:08,490 --> 00:17:11,970 civilization on that planet, it's not that they will have 256 00:17:12,060 --> 00:17:14,790 been able to break the laws of physics, but they might be able 257 00:17:14,790 --> 00:17:17,700 to bend them in ways that we can't quite conceive of at this 258 00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:21,330 point, and be able to travel between the stars. So it's a 259 00:17:21,330 --> 00:17:28,290 possibility. But I don't see any, you know, real strong 260 00:17:28,290 --> 00:17:30,960 evidence that they're here. There's no question that some of 261 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:36,120 the UFO reports and some of the cases are very puzzling. But 262 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:39,120 that doesn't automatically mean that the aliens are here. And 263 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:41,790 I've you know, I've talked to many abductees, I actually had a 264 00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:48,990 abductee support group for a while, during the the 80s and 265 00:17:48,990 --> 00:17:55,560 into the 90s. And, you know, I understand I've sat and listened 266 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,440 to many people tell me their stories. I understand the 267 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,880 implications. I understand the the arguments either way, but I 268 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,670 just don't think we have the absolute proof yet to make that 269 00:18:05,670 --> 00:18:09,540 quantum leap and say that the aliens are definitely here. 270 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,930 John Greenewald: But I got a project a little bit over 40 271 00:18:12,930 --> 00:18:16,260 years, what do you know, the exact count, I was just kind of 272 00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:20,760 rough estimating from the I don't know when in the 70s. But, 273 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,550 you know, we're over 40 years you've been in this field, 274 00:18:23,550 --> 00:18:31,560 right? Something has to, I mean, I'm curious too, and I totally 275 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,730 get that aspect of it. And I'm only 26 years I'm approaching 26 276 00:18:35,730 --> 00:18:42,150 years in this and researching it. What would you say is 277 00:18:42,150 --> 00:18:45,780 keeping you here that long? I mean, Curiosity can only take 278 00:18:45,780 --> 00:18:47,670 you so far. Is it truly only that? 279 00:18:48,990 --> 00:18:52,590 Chris Rutkowski: Well, only curiosity? I'm fascinated by it. 280 00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:59,100 I I take it as a personal challenge to look at cases that 281 00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:02,370 come my way. I'm interested in the statistics. I guess one of 282 00:19:02,370 --> 00:19:09,240 the things that keeps me going is that I try to cut through a 283 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,290 lot of the nonsense that's out there. Be like I said at the 284 00:19:13,290 --> 00:19:17,460 beginning, I'm a science writer, my day job is actually writing 285 00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:22,740 science articles and digesting and you know, simmering down 286 00:19:22,740 --> 00:19:25,620 some scientific concepts that might be published in Nature, 287 00:19:25,620 --> 00:19:29,910 New Scientist or Scientific American, and making them a 288 00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:32,970 little more palatable to the average layperson so that they 289 00:19:32,970 --> 00:19:38,550 have a better understanding of science. So I'd like to try and 290 00:19:38,550 --> 00:19:42,150 present and liaise with the scientific community that there 291 00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:46,410 is something interesting going on with regard to UFOs. I've 292 00:19:46,410 --> 00:19:50,130 actually published a number of articles in peer reviewed 293 00:19:50,130 --> 00:19:53,370 journals. That seems to be what, what some people are interested 294 00:19:53,370 --> 00:19:58,650 in these days. So I've actually already done that. And I've been 295 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,550 trying to look at the actual data. And I've been working with 296 00:20:02,550 --> 00:20:05,610 individuals, such as Jeff Dettman, here in Canada, 297 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,150 crunching the data to try and find is there anything really 298 00:20:09,150 --> 00:20:13,770 meaty in the UFO phenomenon, reports. And there are some 299 00:20:13,770 --> 00:20:16,860 interesting cases, as I mentioned, and the Canadian us 300 00:20:16,890 --> 00:20:23,160 UFO survey by itself. There's something like 750, to about 301 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,380 1000 UFO reports in Canada alone every year. And a small 302 00:20:28,380 --> 00:20:33,450 percentage of those are unexplained, let's say one or 303 00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:36,540 two or 5%, something like that. But when you're looking at a 304 00:20:36,540 --> 00:20:42,060 body of 30 years worth 25,000 reports, you're looking at a few 305 00:20:42,060 --> 00:20:44,940 100 reports now that are interesting enough to take a 306 00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:49,380 closer look at some of them are well documented. And what I 307 00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:52,620 found is that when I look into some of the documents, stuff, 308 00:20:52,620 --> 00:20:56,430 those are the research that's been done and the investigations 309 00:20:56,610 --> 00:20:59,940 that have been done previously, there's some meat in there. And, 310 00:21:01,140 --> 00:21:04,590 you know, it's, there are some intriguing questions. And so 311 00:21:04,590 --> 00:21:09,360 from a scientific standpoint, I want to know, what was seen what 312 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:12,360 was reported, how did the scientific community approach 313 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:17,550 this? And, you know, is is there a way to present this material 314 00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:22,590 to that greater scientific community, so that, you know, 315 00:21:22,590 --> 00:21:25,260 they can embrace it and understand it a little bit more. 316 00:21:26,220 --> 00:21:29,130 John Greenewald: I know the audience kind of perked up when 317 00:21:29,130 --> 00:21:32,340 you said peer review, would you mind giving a brief overview? Is 318 00:21:32,340 --> 00:21:34,800 that is that the survey that you've been talking about? 319 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,610 That's peer reviewed? Or was it another paper or papers? No, 320 00:21:38,609 --> 00:21:40,229 Chris Rutkowski: I've actually published in peer reviewed 321 00:21:40,229 --> 00:21:45,209 journals. A couple of them as a matter of fact, the there's a 322 00:21:45,239 --> 00:21:48,569 journal called perceptual motor skills, which is a psychology 323 00:21:48,569 --> 00:21:55,229 journal. And I've also had a letter published in a medical 324 00:21:55,229 --> 00:22:01,109 journal about UFO experiences. And I've actually published in 325 00:22:01,109 --> 00:22:05,249 astronomy journals on on topics related to UFO is doing or 326 00:22:05,249 --> 00:22:08,939 transient phenomena and things like that. So, you know, I've 327 00:22:08,969 --> 00:22:12,629 been trying to look at the UFO phenomena from a scientific 328 00:22:12,629 --> 00:22:15,749 perspective, and putting my money where my mouth is saying, 329 00:22:15,749 --> 00:22:19,559 Okay, here's scientific community, this is what you 330 00:22:19,559 --> 00:22:23,009 know, you should be taking a look at and studying a little 331 00:22:23,009 --> 00:22:23,519 bit more. 332 00:22:24,510 --> 00:22:27,180 John Greenewald: So let's zero in on that. What should they be 333 00:22:27,180 --> 00:22:30,570 looking at? Is this based on documents that you've received 334 00:22:30,570 --> 00:22:32,130 from the Canadian government? 335 00:22:34,410 --> 00:22:36,900 Chris Rutkowski: Some of it is related to Canadian government 336 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:42,810 documents, absolutely. Some new developments and your viewers 337 00:22:42,810 --> 00:22:46,650 and listeners might know that some Canadian politicians have 338 00:22:46,650 --> 00:22:50,070 recently come out of the closet, so to speak with regard to UFOs 339 00:22:50,790 --> 00:22:55,560 have made presentations and stood up and parliamentary 340 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,860 committees, the Canadian Parliament version of Congress 341 00:23:00,270 --> 00:23:05,160 and said that we're concerned about UAPs. And that there 342 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,700 should be, you know, a concerted effort to understand what, how 343 00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:12,420 many ufps there are, what's the nature of them, and you know, 344 00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:18,600 considering what, what is being done to study them, and to 345 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,810 approach them from a more rigorous manner. And the 346 00:23:21,810 --> 00:23:24,780 Canadian government turns out to actually be taking things 347 00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:30,510 seriously. Quite recently, just last year, as a matter of fact, 348 00:23:31,950 --> 00:23:37,170 there was a briefing made to the Canadian Defence Minister on 349 00:23:37,170 --> 00:23:40,200 what the Canadian government was doing with regard to UFOs. And 350 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,870 this actually spun out of what was going on the United States 351 00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:46,920 with regard to you the UMP Taskforce, there had been 352 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,370 obviously some questions among the Canadian military and 353 00:23:50,370 --> 00:23:54,720 politicians about what was going on. and Canadian ministers of 354 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,920 defense are kind of like the Secretary of Defense. And they 355 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,010 come and go a little bit faster than the Secretaries of Defense, 356 00:24:02,010 --> 00:24:06,930 so and there was a new one that was just coming into power in 357 00:24:07,050 --> 00:24:14,910 2021. And his staff was asked to give him a briefing on the state 358 00:24:14,910 --> 00:24:20,820 of UFO investigations and UFO research in Canada. And I had 359 00:24:20,820 --> 00:24:26,400 actually been contacted by the Canadian Forces in the Ministry 360 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,980 of Defense. For information about this, because I had been 361 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,640 keeping track of the UFO phenomena for some time, I had 362 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,850 actually been at the National Research Council, working with 363 00:24:38,850 --> 00:24:42,630 some of the astronomers. So my name I had been associated with 364 00:24:42,630 --> 00:24:48,060 UFOs. And so they they quoted me in this briefing, and I actually 365 00:24:48,060 --> 00:24:52,680 had never seen this briefing until somebody filed an access 366 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,350 to information request and in Canada, they're out called 367 00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:58,500 access to information in the United States their freedom of 368 00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:02,910 information, requests. And they had filed for the briefing and 369 00:25:02,910 --> 00:25:07,590 they didn't get the briefing, they got the PowerPoint slides 370 00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:11,070 from the briefing. And I was actually mentioned on one of the 371 00:25:11,070 --> 00:25:17,370 PowerPoint slides by the, by the Defense Department, you know, 372 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,680 briefing, the Ministry of Defense, which was kind of cool, 373 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,750 I suppose. And they talked about how that how many cases there 374 00:25:24,750 --> 00:25:28,020 were, what the the history of the investigations had been. And 375 00:25:28,050 --> 00:25:32,640 basically what I told you earlier in this podcast, and 376 00:25:32,670 --> 00:25:39,270 that was the status as of June 2021. And since then, you know, 377 00:25:39,270 --> 00:25:44,250 the some additional politicians have come out. And in Canada 378 00:25:44,250 --> 00:25:49,230 have to also note that the UAPs are still called UFOs. In 379 00:25:49,230 --> 00:25:49,860 Canada. 380 00:25:51,210 --> 00:25:53,100 John Greenewald: As matter of fact, labeled correctly, it's 381 00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:55,260 what you're saying the Canadians are doing, the Canadians are 382 00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:56,010 very proper. 383 00:25:56,010 --> 00:26:04,260 Chris Rutkowski: Yeah, this is good. And, yeah, in 1985, the 384 00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:07,950 National Research Council itself got out of the UFO business, 385 00:26:08,460 --> 00:26:11,850 because it was going to be a line item in their budget. And 386 00:26:11,850 --> 00:26:15,300 they didn't want to see UFO investigations as part of their 387 00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:18,240 budget. So they figured what are we going to do? So I'd have 388 00:26:18,270 --> 00:26:20,640 actually had been in the National Research Council in 389 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,500 Ottawa, visiting with some astronomy colleagues. And they 390 00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:27,990 were mentioning that what are they going to do about the UFOs? 391 00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:30,570 And I said, Well, you can always send them to me, I'm interested 392 00:26:30,570 --> 00:26:34,110 in the subject. And that was the last I heard of it, until about 393 00:26:34,110 --> 00:26:39,180 1999, when I started getting the UFO reports. And these were 394 00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:44,490 reports, sent to military bases, some from military personnel 395 00:26:44,490 --> 00:26:48,510 themselves, some from the general public, and documenting, 396 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,460 you know, what people have been seeing. And I included them as a 397 00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:59,490 matter of course, in my Canadian UFO survey. So since I began the 398 00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:02,520 Canadian UFO survey, I've actually been including the 399 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,430 National Research Council, UFO reports, and then the ones that 400 00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:09,030 have been coming to me directly. So we actually have a complete 401 00:27:09,030 --> 00:27:17,100 record of UFO reports in Canada from 1947, to now, many of them 402 00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:20,460 coming from government documents from the National Research 403 00:27:20,460 --> 00:27:25,680 Council, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. And then, in 404 00:27:25,710 --> 00:27:29,280 2000, another organization called Transport Canada, which 405 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,840 is the equivalent of the FAA started being responsible for 406 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:40,140 the UFOs. And there's actually a form that pilots can fill out in 407 00:27:40,140 --> 00:27:42,930 Canada, where it says, If you see a basically, if you see a 408 00:27:42,930 --> 00:27:46,410 UFO, you know, tell us about it, and it's filed as an incident 409 00:27:46,410 --> 00:27:50,880 report. And so those reports are, are available as well. So 410 00:27:50,910 --> 00:27:53,490 we it's interesting that, you know, throughout these 411 00:27:53,490 --> 00:27:56,250 iterations of various organizations and government 412 00:27:56,250 --> 00:28:00,120 departments, we have a continuous record of UFO 413 00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:03,630 investigations at one level or another in some depth or 414 00:28:03,630 --> 00:28:07,620 another, right from the dawn of the early beginning of flying 415 00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:11,640 saucers to now. And I've made this point and people have 416 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,920 criticized me for it that I think Canada has sort of been 417 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,970 ahead of the curve in terms of the United States on this 418 00:28:17,970 --> 00:28:21,870 because we have these documents. And they are available. And 419 00:28:21,870 --> 00:28:26,130 we've been analyzing the data all along. And what do we know 420 00:28:26,130 --> 00:28:29,460 about what's been happening in United States after blue book, I 421 00:28:29,460 --> 00:28:32,370 mean, people like Paul Dean, and yourself and a few others have 422 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,400 found some documents here and there. But we don't have a 423 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,630 continuous record up until, you know, some of the revelations 424 00:28:40,110 --> 00:28:44,310 that came out just a few years ago, when it was discovered that 425 00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:48,540 there was a project between 2007 and 2012. That ran, but we don't 426 00:28:48,540 --> 00:28:51,570 know exactly the details. We don't know the cases. Even the 427 00:28:51,570 --> 00:28:54,840 UAP taskforce report that came out last year. We don't know 428 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,940 what those reports actually were, we don't know what was 429 00:28:56,940 --> 00:29:01,350 seen. We don't know where they were seen from. And, and yet, we 430 00:29:01,350 --> 00:29:04,560 have here in Canada, and it's pretty substantial record of 431 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,780 cases. And Canada does share responsibility in NORAD, of 432 00:29:09,780 --> 00:29:12,570 course, with the United States. So there's some bleeding back 433 00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:16,350 and forth. And I, I suspect that NORAD, you know, it has full 434 00:29:16,350 --> 00:29:19,410 access to what the Canadians have, if so, that must mean that 435 00:29:19,410 --> 00:29:24,210 the Americans must have what has been coming through Canada, and 436 00:29:24,210 --> 00:29:27,300 we don't have don't have that information at all. 437 00:29:27,809 --> 00:29:29,909 John Greenewald: I want to go back when you were saying and 438 00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:32,399 correct me if I'm paraphrasing this wrong, but essentially that 439 00:29:32,399 --> 00:29:35,699 the Canadian government was sharing the UFO reports they 440 00:29:35,699 --> 00:29:40,859 were getting directly with you. Right. And and is that still 441 00:29:40,859 --> 00:29:45,119 going on? Or are they kind of shifting how they're 442 00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:47,819 investigating these things here in 2022? 443 00:29:49,410 --> 00:29:52,770 Chris Rutkowski: Yeah, as a matter of fact, once it came out 444 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,880 that I had been receiving the Canadian or the UFO reports 445 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:02,460 through national defense bill might have It rang off somewhere 446 00:30:02,460 --> 00:30:06,900 in Ottawa and somebody said, Exactly why are we giving a 447 00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:13,230 civilian access to some of these reports? And so I would say that 448 00:30:13,260 --> 00:30:19,410 most of the the cases that I've received, dried up about about 449 00:30:19,410 --> 00:30:21,240 that time, so 450 00:30:21,270 --> 00:30:23,370 John Greenewald: And when was that? When did that dry up when 451 00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:23,760 they 452 00:30:24,089 --> 00:30:27,749 Chris Rutkowski: probably in the mid 90s, mid 2021? 453 00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:30,000 John Greenewald: I gotcha. Oh, wow. You know, somewhat 454 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,960 recently, somewhat recently. Yeah. So how many cases? Do you 455 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,410 think prior to the dry up? Did they send over to you? 456 00:30:38,910 --> 00:30:45,060 Chris Rutkowski: Oh, well? Well, there's several levels. The 457 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,690 Transport Canada files themselves, have somewhere 458 00:30:48,690 --> 00:30:58,230 around 500 cases between 2005 and 2020. And I have probably 459 00:31:00,780 --> 00:31:13,140 another 500 600, between mid 1995 Until now, and there's 460 00:31:13,140 --> 00:31:16,080 probably some overlap in there. So it's one of the projects that 461 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,250 I'm working on, is trying to take a good look at these scan 462 00:31:20,250 --> 00:31:22,020 them. And I'm trying to make them available. As a matter of 463 00:31:22,020 --> 00:31:26,970 fact, I had hoped that by today, I would be able to announce that 464 00:31:27,690 --> 00:31:30,840 at least some of the missing years of the National Research 465 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,290 Council files that hadn't been made public yet might be 466 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,470 uploaded. And I've been going through it doing things like 467 00:31:37,470 --> 00:31:41,310 taking witnesses names and phone numbers and things like that, so 468 00:31:41,310 --> 00:31:44,640 that everybody can have access to these. And it's quite a slow 469 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:50,550 process. concurrently with all this. I was asked by the 470 00:31:50,550 --> 00:31:55,860 University of Manitoba, about five years ago, what I was going 471 00:31:55,860 --> 00:31:58,950 to be doing with all my UFO files and my collection of UFO 472 00:31:58,950 --> 00:32:04,290 books, and zines and whatnot. And I said, I'm not sure exactly 473 00:32:04,410 --> 00:32:08,220 what would you consider donating them to the archives. And this 474 00:32:08,220 --> 00:32:11,220 was all about the same time when, you know, the the 475 00:32:11,220 --> 00:32:14,670 acquisition of archives of of UFO materials was really 476 00:32:14,670 --> 00:32:19,950 starting to go into high gear. Certainly, Jen Aldrich, and a 477 00:32:19,950 --> 00:32:22,230 very Greenwood and people like that have been doing this for 478 00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:30,810 some time. Recently. Marla, David Marler has been doing some 479 00:32:30,810 --> 00:32:34,440 of this and collecting vast materials and it's sending, you 480 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,590 know, sending a lot of them to Sweden to their collections out 481 00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:41,430 there. But the University of Manitoba had asked me for mine, 482 00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:47,160 and so I have actually been donating all of my UFO files, 483 00:32:47,610 --> 00:32:51,150 and all of my books and zines. As a matter of fact, you can see 484 00:32:51,150 --> 00:32:53,640 behind me there's not very many books on these bookcases. 485 00:32:54,150 --> 00:33:00,180 Because just two days ago, I donated the last of my UFO books 486 00:33:00,180 --> 00:33:06,780 to the university archives. And so they have all my documents 487 00:33:06,810 --> 00:33:12,450 and UFO reports and books and zines and so forth. And they're 488 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,350 going to be digitizing it slowly. I mean, Stan Friedman's 489 00:33:17,070 --> 00:33:21,030 collection has been donated to the government of New Brunswick, 490 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,260 their archives, and the archivists sit there said that 491 00:33:25,260 --> 00:33:28,260 it's probably going to take 10 to 15 years just to index what 492 00:33:28,260 --> 00:33:32,070 Stan Friedman has. I have no idea how much how long it's 493 00:33:32,070 --> 00:33:34,170 going to take for the University of Manitoba to do mine. I have a 494 00:33:34,170 --> 00:33:36,960 lot less than Stan's, but it's pretty substantial. 495 00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:39,930 John Greenewald: Wow. That's good to hear, though that that 496 00:33:39,930 --> 00:33:43,470 eventually this stuff will be digitized, or that's the the 497 00:33:43,470 --> 00:33:46,470 aim. So that's good. I want to take you back to the files a 498 00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:49,980 little bit. Obviously, you've collected quite a bit over the 499 00:33:49,980 --> 00:33:53,040 years, and I want to kind of hone in on either something 500 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,470 you've covered in the book. I'll let you take the lead here. But 501 00:33:55,770 --> 00:34:01,590 when it comes to the government files, do you have a top one, 502 00:34:01,590 --> 00:34:05,070 two or three cases that make you go? Wow 503 00:34:06,750 --> 00:34:10,920 Chris Rutkowski: Hmm. Well, I'm gonna have to talk about Falcon 504 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,780 Lake. No question is that for people who don't know it, you 505 00:34:15,780 --> 00:34:22,590 should google google of Falcon Lake UFO report. In 1967, it was 506 00:34:22,590 --> 00:34:26,070 actually the the reason I was actually on Unsolved Mysteries 507 00:34:26,070 --> 00:34:30,750 the first time. They recreated it. And the idea was back in 508 00:34:30,750 --> 00:34:33,840 1967, a fella was doing some amateur prospecting was a bit of 509 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:40,470 a rock hound. And he went into the bush and this was May of 510 00:34:40,470 --> 00:34:47,700 1967 he encountered a Hollywood style flying saucer, for lack of 511 00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:51,300 a better description. And I had landed he touched the sight of 512 00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:55,050 it a blast of hot gas came up out of the sight of it when it 513 00:34:55,050 --> 00:34:59,460 took off. Set his clothes on fire. left marks on the ground 514 00:34:59,460 --> 00:35:03,630 the usual Will you know trace case that type of thing. This 515 00:35:03,630 --> 00:35:08,580 fellow was examined, he was at an emergency room in a hospital. 516 00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:13,740 The Royal Canadian Mounted Police investigated the Royal 517 00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:19,230 Canadian Air Force investigated. And their investigations 518 00:35:19,740 --> 00:35:23,880 amounted to something like three or 400 pages that we now have. 519 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,780 And we have all those documents, ranging from interrogation of 520 00:35:27,780 --> 00:35:33,030 the witness to discussion with where he's where he worked, 521 00:35:33,210 --> 00:35:37,080 interviews with the family analysis, there are site visits 522 00:35:37,530 --> 00:35:40,620 out to this place. And what's curious do you have it has 523 00:35:40,620 --> 00:35:44,430 basically all the things you would want in a UFO case, a 524 00:35:44,430 --> 00:35:47,700 witness who could talk about what happened, there was 525 00:35:47,730 --> 00:35:51,120 materials found at the site. As a matter of fact, radioactivity 526 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,450 was found at the site and the material was analyzed by the 527 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,050 Canadian government, the site and the investigation was was 528 00:35:58,050 --> 00:36:00,450 done by the Canadian military, the Royal Canadian Mounted 529 00:36:00,450 --> 00:36:03,870 Police, the documents are available. This fellow was 530 00:36:03,870 --> 00:36:08,100 physically injured, we have the medical records from from the 531 00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:12,360 studies of this fellow. And in addition, a year later, he went 532 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:17,400 back to visit the site kind of for old times sake, and dug down 533 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,850 a little bit in the rock over which this UFO had hovered, and 534 00:36:20,850 --> 00:36:25,950 found some radioactive metal that he brought back and that 535 00:36:25,950 --> 00:36:30,360 radioactive metal was analyzed by the University of Chicago, I 536 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,610 think Arizona looked at it certainly some Canadian 537 00:36:32,610 --> 00:36:36,810 institutions. And that metal is also radioactive. And that a 538 00:36:36,810 --> 00:36:39,930 piece of that metal is still in existence has never been 539 00:36:39,930 --> 00:36:43,650 mentioned in any of the discussions of, you know, crash 540 00:36:43,650 --> 00:36:47,820 retrievals, from UFOs. And yet, the analysis was done starting 541 00:36:47,820 --> 00:36:50,640 in 1968. And there have been a number of analyses done over the 542 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,870 years, and has been investigated and studied three ways from 543 00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:58,890 Sunday. And everybody should know about this case, because it 544 00:36:58,890 --> 00:37:02,400 has all the details that you would want in a in a really good 545 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:03,330 UFO case. 546 00:37:03,539 --> 00:37:05,369 John Greenewald: I'm not very familiar with it. So if you 547 00:37:05,369 --> 00:37:08,489 don't mind the potentially ignorant question when they did 548 00:37:08,489 --> 00:37:12,899 the analysis on the material beyond the radioactivity, what 549 00:37:12,899 --> 00:37:17,309 was the makeup of the was it aluminum? Was it? What like, 550 00:37:17,309 --> 00:37:19,889 what what what was it? Did it match anything? 551 00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:23,579 Chris Rutkowski: Yeah, it's a very strange thing. It's almost 552 00:37:23,579 --> 00:37:28,859 pure silver. And when I say pure silver, I mean, pure silver, 553 00:37:29,009 --> 00:37:31,199 people have said, well, you know, there's silver veins and 554 00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:33,509 stuff like that in this particular area, because it's 555 00:37:33,509 --> 00:37:37,109 the Canadian Shield and so forth. No, this wasn't silver, 556 00:37:37,109 --> 00:37:44,489 or this was pure silver, that is radioactive. And the site is 557 00:37:44,489 --> 00:37:50,609 actually fairly isolated. In fact, the easiest way to get to 558 00:37:50,609 --> 00:37:55,109 the site, believe it or not, is by horseback. Sort of mini mule 559 00:37:55,109 --> 00:37:58,319 train. It's accessible to the public. As a matter of fact, you 560 00:37:58,319 --> 00:38:01,709 can take a horseback ride with our Canadian Canada's mini 561 00:38:01,709 --> 00:38:05,219 Roswell, there's some souvenir stands, that you can get T 562 00:38:05,219 --> 00:38:07,739 shirts and whatnot, you can take a horseback right to the site. 563 00:38:09,569 --> 00:38:15,059 But the material is very, very puzzling and why there would be 564 00:38:15,779 --> 00:38:21,659 melted silver, radioactive silver in a crack in a rock, you 565 00:38:21,659 --> 00:38:27,179 know, a mile from civilization? I don't know. Now, does the case 566 00:38:27,179 --> 00:38:32,579 prove that aliens exist? No. Is there evidence that it's a hoax? 567 00:38:32,579 --> 00:38:38,039 Well, no, because the fellow never made any money. He wasn't 568 00:38:38,039 --> 00:38:40,079 trying to get famous. As matter of fact, he's shutting the 569 00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:43,529 publicity. And the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the 570 00:38:43,979 --> 00:38:47,369 Royal Canadian Air Force both said in their final reports that 571 00:38:47,369 --> 00:38:51,329 they could not explain the case. It's also included, by the way, 572 00:38:51,689 --> 00:38:58,589 in the Condon report. And but Condon report had a different 573 00:38:58,589 --> 00:39:01,799 take on it. They were fairly convinced it was a hoax, simply 574 00:39:01,799 --> 00:39:03,299 because well, what else could 575 00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:07,410 John Greenewald: it be? That's the easy fallback. Yeah. But so 576 00:39:07,410 --> 00:39:07,650 there's a 577 00:39:07,650 --> 00:39:09,180 Chris Rutkowski: difference of opinion between the Canadians 578 00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:12,750 and Americans. I have decided with Canada, of course. But it's 579 00:39:12,750 --> 00:39:16,140 in a very strange case, those documents and I mentioned 580 00:39:16,140 --> 00:39:22,380 there's three or 400 pages of these documents. And it's it's 581 00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:25,230 certainly one of the best documented UFO cases. That's 582 00:39:25,230 --> 00:39:30,330 just one of the cases that we've looked at over the years. There 583 00:39:30,330 --> 00:39:34,080 are many, many others are in fact in my will before 584 00:39:34,140 --> 00:39:35,550 John Greenewald: and I don't mean to interrupt you, I 585 00:39:35,550 --> 00:39:38,820 apologize. But one last question before we do move on to another 586 00:39:38,820 --> 00:39:45,930 case. Where's the piece now? Where can you say my Well, yeah, 587 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,500 is it behind you on that? Is it on the bookcase as it were? 588 00:39:49,950 --> 00:39:52,440 Chris Rutkowski: It's not on this bookcase? Let me just say 589 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,630 that. Okay. All right, the 590 00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:58,650 John Greenewald: next room Gotcha. Yeah. But is it so so 591 00:39:58,650 --> 00:40:02,370 Joking aside, can you say I'd like it, do you? Well, again, 592 00:40:02,370 --> 00:40:04,710 I'm not trying to push too much. We can't say you can't say but 593 00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:06,900 you haven't or is it at a university, 594 00:40:06,930 --> 00:40:09,690 Chris Rutkowski: we do have as matter of fact, some of the 595 00:40:09,690 --> 00:40:13,560 artifacts from this particular case have already been given to 596 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:19,320 the archives, the actual undershirt, that this fellow had 597 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:24,570 been worrying when it got blasted by the by the UFO that 598 00:40:24,570 --> 00:40:28,830 was retrieved, it's still intact, well, kind of intact as 599 00:40:28,830 --> 00:40:33,000 as undershirts from 1967. I have undershirts that older, fine, 600 00:40:33,270 --> 00:40:37,620 but 1967, they're a little it's a little tattered. But you can 601 00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:42,450 see the burn marks on it, his cap that he was wearing, and a 602 00:40:42,450 --> 00:40:45,660 few other artifacts, plus the metal and you know, that's all 603 00:40:45,660 --> 00:40:49,650 going to be going to, to archives, the metal was studied, 604 00:40:50,130 --> 00:40:53,160 was put through an electron microscope, trying to remember 605 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,240 whether it was two years ago, it was, yeah, just before the 606 00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:02,880 pandemic, so I guess three years ago? And there's no question, 607 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,840 you know, it's it's definitely silver, and it's certainly 608 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:07,560 radioactive. 609 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:09,450 John Greenewald: Was there anything unique about the burn 610 00:41:09,450 --> 00:41:12,900 marks? I don't know if those were analyzed. And yeah, the 611 00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:13,740 birthmarks are quite 612 00:41:13,740 --> 00:41:18,090 Chris Rutkowski: interesting, because on the side of the, this 613 00:41:18,090 --> 00:41:21,450 craft, there's kind of an exhaust vent, like you would 614 00:41:21,450 --> 00:41:26,730 find, you know, with, with, with holes in it, and whatever. And 615 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,780 when this gas was blasted out of this exhaust vent, when the 616 00:41:30,780 --> 00:41:36,360 thing took off, the pattern of the burns on his body, and on 617 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:42,060 the shirt matched fairly well. And it's, people have said, 618 00:41:42,060 --> 00:41:44,370 well, he was burned by radiation. Well, no, he wasn't 619 00:41:44,370 --> 00:41:48,870 burned by the radiation factor, radiation is very unusual to 620 00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:52,920 find, because, you know, he was actually taken for a full body 621 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:59,580 count to a nuclear facility here in Canada, where he was, you 622 00:41:59,580 --> 00:42:04,710 know, not radioactive. But the some of the soil and material 623 00:42:04,710 --> 00:42:07,380 from the site had been radioactive. As a matter of 624 00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:14,970 fact, some of the documents that we've found, show that the Royal 625 00:42:14,970 --> 00:42:22,740 Canadian Air Force's laboratory was unable to ship the material 626 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,590 from one part of the country to the other because it was so 627 00:42:25,590 --> 00:42:30,120 radioactive. And that is another document that shows that there 628 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,080 had been some discussion about cordoning off this entire area, 629 00:42:34,110 --> 00:42:39,030 which happens to be in kind of a, a resort area, not where he 630 00:42:39,060 --> 00:42:41,280 where he was, but to get to it, you'd have to go through a 631 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,780 resort area. And they were going to close off the resort area for 632 00:42:45,780 --> 00:42:50,430 the entire summer to protect the population of a concern for 633 00:42:50,430 --> 00:42:54,810 safety. So, you know, the the radiation is a significant part 634 00:42:54,810 --> 00:42:58,740 of the story. But he himself was not burned by radiation. 635 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,410 John Greenewald: And before we move on, because I want to ask 636 00:43:01,410 --> 00:43:07,170 you about other cases as well. But after 50 plus years, nothing 637 00:43:07,170 --> 00:43:12,240 like a classified platform piece of technology, something either 638 00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:16,020 American, Canadian or whatever, has ever been presented as 639 00:43:16,020 --> 00:43:19,920 something that could take kind of credit for this incident. I 640 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,590 mean, is there anything that's come along that makes sense to 641 00:43:22,590 --> 00:43:26,490 you? From a skeptical standpoint? Like, oh, okay, 642 00:43:26,580 --> 00:43:27,600 maybe this is it? 643 00:43:28,470 --> 00:43:31,290 Chris Rutkowski: Well, yeah, I mean, one of the, this fellow 644 00:43:31,290 --> 00:43:35,820 was was quite unique in terms of UFO experiences, because he 645 00:43:35,820 --> 00:43:40,140 never talked in terms of aliens. He had a military background 646 00:43:40,140 --> 00:43:46,110 himself. And he was convinced that he had seen some kind of 647 00:43:46,110 --> 00:43:52,320 secret military landing vertical takeoff craft. And this was 67. 648 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,680 So this was just at the beginning of Apollo. In fact, I 649 00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,300 think the tragic. Apollo one accident wasn't called Apollo 650 00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:02,880 one, of course, but as I think the accident occurred, just 651 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,770 previous to this. And so it was in the news that NASA was going 652 00:44:07,770 --> 00:44:10,710 to the moon. And so you know, he thought that's what this thing 653 00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:14,100 was because he said, you know, what else could it be? It's some 654 00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:18,900 sort of metallic craft. He said, it certainly looked like the 655 00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:22,320 side was sort of some sort of burnished metal, couldn't see 656 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,350 any rivets. There were lights coming out of it. So he said it 657 00:44:25,350 --> 00:44:30,690 must be some sort of a, an American craft of some sort. And 658 00:44:30,690 --> 00:44:35,250 yet, nothing matching the description has been seen before 659 00:44:35,250 --> 00:44:38,760 since the argument is if NASA could do this, why did they 660 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,080 waste too much time on Saturn V's that type of thing. There 661 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,070 was something called the Avro car, which was produced in 662 00:44:47,070 --> 00:44:53,190 Canada. And some viewers might be familiar with it. It was it 663 00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:56,940 was the flying pancake that had been developed, 664 00:44:57,209 --> 00:44:59,969 John Greenewald: but it got more than three feet off the ground. 665 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,910 Chris Rutkowski: Did it Yeah, it really didn't work very well. 666 00:45:02,910 --> 00:45:05,310 Some people have suggested there might have been a secret program 667 00:45:05,310 --> 00:45:08,970 that continued developing it. And that's what we were seeing. 668 00:45:08,970 --> 00:45:11,280 But, you know, there hadn't been another sighting of anything 669 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:16,470 like this, of this description of this configuration. So, if it 670 00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:21,060 was a secret craft, we simply don't know what kind it was. We 671 00:45:21,060 --> 00:45:25,170 don't have any proof that it was Aliens. And the, the possibility 672 00:45:25,170 --> 00:45:29,880 of a hoax is always there. But we you know, it would be of the 673 00:45:30,390 --> 00:45:36,330 caliber of of Barnum and Bailey because it's certainly one of 674 00:45:36,330 --> 00:45:39,210 the most elaborate contrived on record and the fellow certainly 675 00:45:39,210 --> 00:45:43,710 didn't profit from any of this. So it's a it's one of those that 676 00:45:43,710 --> 00:45:46,980 we simply have to classify as unexplained at this time. 677 00:45:47,310 --> 00:45:50,640 John Greenewald: It's also intriguing if the hopes comes up 678 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,830 in the discussion that you didn't jump to aliens or 679 00:45:52,830 --> 00:45:56,430 something fantastic like that. And extraordinary that he 680 00:45:56,430 --> 00:45:59,520 rather's tried to stay a little bit close to Earth, pardon the 681 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:04,350 pun, but explanation. So that's always an intriguing part of any 682 00:46:04,350 --> 00:46:08,670 story, but let alone that one. But with that fascinating case, 683 00:46:09,180 --> 00:46:12,210 is there any others that stick out in your mind that that 684 00:46:12,210 --> 00:46:17,010 really kind of show you that this phenomenon is worth 685 00:46:17,010 --> 00:46:17,580 setting? 686 00:46:18,330 --> 00:46:21,210 Chris Rutkowski: Well, the fact that the Canadian government 687 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:26,670 itself thought that cases were worth studying is worth noting. 688 00:46:27,660 --> 00:46:33,990 And one set of documents that we found in the in the archives was 689 00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:39,000 something called the Robertson briefing, not the Robertson 690 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,210 report. People in the fall, as you know, it's something called 691 00:46:42,210 --> 00:46:46,650 the Robertson briefing, there's a military personnel named 692 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:52,230 Robertson. And he was asked to prepare a document very similar 693 00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:56,880 to what happened with me in 2021. But he'd been asked to 694 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:01,770 prepare a briefing for the chief of defense staff, which was the 695 00:47:02,070 --> 00:47:05,310 person who's directly in contact with the Ministry of Defense 696 00:47:05,460 --> 00:47:08,460 gives him all the information tells him what's going on in in 697 00:47:08,460 --> 00:47:12,030 Canada. And the minister of defense at that time was a fella 698 00:47:12,030 --> 00:47:17,070 named Leo Kaddu, who had just taken over from somebody that 699 00:47:17,100 --> 00:47:22,140 UFO fans will know Paul Hellyer, who was Minister of Defense up 700 00:47:22,140 --> 00:47:26,700 until that time, but Hellyer had left and Kegel had come in, and 701 00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:31,350 the chief of defense staff wanted to brief Leo Kavya on 702 00:47:31,380 --> 00:47:36,090 what the military knew about UFOs. And so he produced a 28 703 00:47:36,090 --> 00:47:41,820 page briefing document describing the what Canada knew 704 00:47:41,820 --> 00:47:45,030 about UFOs describes what was going on in the States, and then 705 00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:47,910 described the number of cases that had been reported in 706 00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:50,760 Canada, the number of cases that they thought were really good. 707 00:47:51,330 --> 00:47:56,250 And listed six reports and six cases that Canadian military had 708 00:47:56,250 --> 00:48:02,040 investigated that they could not explain. That's in this 709 00:48:02,130 --> 00:48:06,150 particular document. One of them was the one that was the case 710 00:48:06,150 --> 00:48:10,020 that I just mentioned, the Falcon Lake case. And there were 711 00:48:10,140 --> 00:48:15,900 five others, including a radar case, that that came from a 712 00:48:16,590 --> 00:48:20,070 radar base here in Manitoba, oddly enough. But there are a 713 00:48:20,070 --> 00:48:24,510 number of other cases that were evaluated and found that they 714 00:48:24,510 --> 00:48:27,720 they couldn't explain this was the Canadian government couldn't 715 00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:32,040 explain out of all the cases that they had been receiving. 716 00:48:32,550 --> 00:48:35,790 And so that went into this briefing document and the 717 00:48:35,790 --> 00:48:40,290 reverse of the 2021. We have the briefing document, but not the 718 00:48:40,290 --> 00:48:46,860 slides that went with them. So it's, and we've tried to locate 719 00:48:46,860 --> 00:48:49,380 them, we failed to try and get the slides because among them 720 00:48:49,380 --> 00:48:52,770 were maps and photos and that type of thing. But they've been 721 00:48:52,980 --> 00:48:56,430 they haven't found them. But we have the briefing document. It's 722 00:48:56,430 --> 00:49:00,840 very curious that, you know, we that the Canadian government had 723 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,980 been doing some pretty intense investigations back in, in the 724 00:49:04,980 --> 00:49:08,730 1960s, into the 70s. And, and certainly after that, 725 00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:14,430 John Greenewald: in the last 1015 minutes or so that I have 726 00:49:14,430 --> 00:49:17,370 with you. I want to make sure that I get into kind of the 727 00:49:17,370 --> 00:49:20,940 present day you fall ology we've established you've got an 728 00:49:20,940 --> 00:49:24,570 amazing background to yourself, and you've been around a long 729 00:49:24,570 --> 00:49:29,760 time. When it comes to the overall conversation right now. 730 00:49:30,090 --> 00:49:36,180 How do you feel about it? Do you feel that that this topic is 731 00:49:36,180 --> 00:49:38,820 moving forward in a good direction or bad? 732 00:49:41,550 --> 00:49:46,860 Chris Rutkowski: Well, I find it intriguing that there's a lot of 733 00:49:46,860 --> 00:49:50,550 interest in now from in the United States regarding a 734 00:49:50,550 --> 00:49:55,470 congressional investigation. Now, I caution people that 735 00:49:55,710 --> 00:49:59,190 Gerald Ford lobbied for a congressional investigation into 736 00:49:59,190 --> 00:50:04,260 UFOs before He was president, he went back in 1966. The 737 00:50:04,260 --> 00:50:07,560 investigation occurred in 1968. And then the following year Blue 738 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,760 Book was cancelled. So be careful what you wish for, first 739 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:17,610 of all. Secondly, what we've heard so far is that there, you 740 00:50:17,610 --> 00:50:23,130 know, there appears to be some desire to investigate UAPs. And 741 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:28,140 for some make an allowance for military personnel to come 742 00:50:28,140 --> 00:50:33,660 forward without any stigma. And, as we understand it, no, they 743 00:50:33,690 --> 00:50:37,890 there's like 400 cases now that have been presented. But a lot 744 00:50:37,890 --> 00:50:41,280 of them are historical people sort of, had been hanging on to 745 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,270 and couldn't tell anybody. And so we don't actually have the 746 00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:47,880 really good data that people are looking for. I mean, there's a 747 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,170 push now for instrumented observations, whether you're 748 00:50:52,170 --> 00:50:58,080 looking at nightcaps made our nodes or to whatever Avi Loeb 749 00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,640 is, at his group are planning to do. And certainly MUFON has 750 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,090 some, you know, instrumented work that's being worked on 751 00:51:06,090 --> 00:51:10,380 right now to whether those will actually be insufficient number 752 00:51:10,620 --> 00:51:15,600 to actually allow some instrumented observations of 753 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,500 UFOs. I'm not sure there's certainly all sky cameras that 754 00:51:19,500 --> 00:51:22,740 have been going for many, many years, throughout North America 755 00:51:22,740 --> 00:51:26,430 and around the world. And there have been some odd lights that 756 00:51:26,430 --> 00:51:29,490 have been detected on those, as well kind of already have 757 00:51:29,490 --> 00:51:33,300 instrumented detections, but I understand the need for for more 758 00:51:33,300 --> 00:51:36,870 instrumental detection. But I'm, I'm concerned that there would 759 00:51:36,870 --> 00:51:41,340 be some view of throwing the baby out with the bathwater that 760 00:51:41,610 --> 00:51:47,580 we have, well, just Canada 25,000 reports from both 761 00:51:47,580 --> 00:51:53,400 military personnel and civilians, of UFOs. And if 762 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,720 that's not considered valid data for, you know, for science to 763 00:51:57,750 --> 00:52:02,490 examine, that's a concern because, you know, it is data, 764 00:52:03,450 --> 00:52:07,860 one has to only go back a few years relatively, to note that 765 00:52:07,890 --> 00:52:13,470 when Sputnik was launched, the United States relied on civilian 766 00:52:13,470 --> 00:52:17,730 observers to keep track of what and when Sputnik was flying 767 00:52:17,730 --> 00:52:21,750 overhead and using amateur radar with amateur radio operators to 768 00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:24,360 keep track of its beeping. So civilians played a very 769 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:29,070 important role in that. And certainly, with regard to 770 00:52:29,100 --> 00:52:34,560 aerospace, with the development of the pumpkin seed, and other 771 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:39,510 stealth aircraft, civilian aircraft spotters, were 772 00:52:39,540 --> 00:52:44,490 providing valuable data with regard to how these aircraft are 773 00:52:44,490 --> 00:52:48,750 flying. And you know, the civilians play a very important 774 00:52:48,750 --> 00:52:53,430 part in the nature of observations of unusual objects 775 00:52:53,700 --> 00:52:59,670 in our airspace. In the case of Transport Canada, and I've made 776 00:52:59,670 --> 00:53:04,860 the case a number of times, that they're asking pilots to report 777 00:53:04,860 --> 00:53:08,430 UFOs. And there are many reports of pilots seeing lights moving 778 00:53:08,430 --> 00:53:12,810 around their aircraft, structured objects that may or 779 00:53:12,810 --> 00:53:17,010 may not be drones, or who knows what, but things that appear on 780 00:53:17,010 --> 00:53:21,180 radar that shouldn't be there and things that that aren't on 781 00:53:21,180 --> 00:53:26,940 radar that should be there. And, you know, whether the traffic 782 00:53:26,940 --> 00:53:29,850 collision avoidance systems are going off, when there's nothing 783 00:53:29,850 --> 00:53:34,140 around, does that mean that there's some problem with the 784 00:53:34,140 --> 00:53:38,850 technology? Or is there a problem with the pilots? If so, 785 00:53:38,850 --> 00:53:42,510 you know, these are aircraft and commercial aircraft are flying 786 00:53:42,540 --> 00:53:45,960 hundreds and hundreds of people on every flight? Is there a 787 00:53:45,990 --> 00:53:48,660 safety factor? Are people in danger, because there's 788 00:53:48,660 --> 00:53:51,960 something wrong with the pilots, if they're reporting UFOs that 789 00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:56,850 aren't there, or the the devices themselves are malfunctioning? I 790 00:53:56,850 --> 00:54:02,460 think this argues that there should be a greater attempt for 791 00:54:02,460 --> 00:54:10,170 science and other other faculties to investigate and 792 00:54:10,170 --> 00:54:14,790 study the UFO phenomenon. So I'm hoping that with an increased 793 00:54:14,790 --> 00:54:17,520 interest and an attempt from the United States military, and 794 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,130 hopefully from the Canadian military and other military 795 00:54:21,780 --> 00:54:25,140 organizations around the world, that we'll be gathering enough 796 00:54:25,140 --> 00:54:28,560 data that perhaps we can come to some better understanding of the 797 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:34,710 UFO phenomenon. So that's where I'd like to go. And I'm hoping 798 00:54:34,710 --> 00:54:37,500 that the civilian aspect is going to be part of it. 799 00:54:38,670 --> 00:54:40,860 John Greenewald: I hope so too. The one thing that I talked a 800 00:54:40,860 --> 00:54:44,280 lot about on my my channel and I kind of want to juxtapose it 801 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:48,480 with your thoughts about what's going on in Canada, is despite 802 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,470 what the general public thinks, that even though Congress is is 803 00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:55,920 uttering the words UAP or the acronym UAP and the words on 804 00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,480 identified flying object or so on, all of that is great. But 805 00:55:00,510 --> 00:55:03,030 we've established that we're really not going to get a lot of 806 00:55:03,030 --> 00:55:07,620 data us the general public. The public report last year was kind 807 00:55:07,620 --> 00:55:10,470 of silly. There was still some gems here and there. But we 808 00:55:10,470 --> 00:55:13,230 really didn't learn much of what was already being bantered 809 00:55:13,230 --> 00:55:16,620 about. We just got a couple of statistics. And we don't know 810 00:55:16,620 --> 00:55:19,230 what these things are. And there's some cool attributes 811 00:55:19,230 --> 00:55:22,110 that we can't explain. That's pretty much it. Right? We don't 812 00:55:22,110 --> 00:55:25,500 have anything more than that. But I think the general public 813 00:55:25,500 --> 00:55:30,900 thinks this is some new path to a disclosure that there's a 814 00:55:30,900 --> 00:55:35,370 newfound transparency to this conversation. And I guess in a 815 00:55:35,370 --> 00:55:39,360 way, you can argue that but for me, I see it deepening the 816 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,900 security classification. Gaiden, here in America, pretty much 817 00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:45,810 shows that anything related to UAP is going to be classified 818 00:55:45,810 --> 00:55:49,920 secret and top secret right off the bat. So the secrecy in my 819 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:55,080 opinion, is strengthening its deepening. And even though we're 820 00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,980 hearing UFO and UAP, more, doesn't necessarily mean there's 821 00:55:58,980 --> 00:56:02,640 transparency. I don't think we've had the conversation. 822 00:56:02,850 --> 00:56:07,770 Before today, we're the mid 2021, you kind of saw those 823 00:56:07,770 --> 00:56:11,940 reports, stop. I was always encouraged by that level of 824 00:56:11,940 --> 00:56:16,410 transparency in Canada, that they were taking in reports from 825 00:56:16,410 --> 00:56:19,590 a government and or military level, and giving it to somebody 826 00:56:19,770 --> 00:56:23,430 like you that was in the private sector or civilian, and somebody 827 00:56:23,430 --> 00:56:27,060 who would actually do something with it, and could contribute to 828 00:56:27,060 --> 00:56:27,810 the conversation. 829 00:56:28,650 --> 00:56:32,040 Chris Rutkowski: Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. Sorry. No, no. And 830 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:33,600 John Greenewald: that's where I wanted to throw it back to you 831 00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:37,950 is, can you juxtapose Canada's stance right now to America's 832 00:56:37,950 --> 00:56:41,130 which, and this is just my opinion, is deepening secrecy? 833 00:56:41,130 --> 00:56:43,020 Is Canada doing the same thing? 834 00:56:44,070 --> 00:56:46,560 Chris Rutkowski: Well, again, because Canada shares NORAD or 835 00:56:46,650 --> 00:56:49,020 partners with NORAD with the United States, I think there's 836 00:56:49,050 --> 00:56:52,470 there's going to be some, some overflow from one side to the 837 00:56:52,470 --> 00:56:58,170 other. And it is interesting that, you know, up until 2021, I 838 00:56:58,170 --> 00:57:04,170 was getting these, these confidential reports, and doing 839 00:57:04,170 --> 00:57:06,930 something with them, because in the private sector, I think 840 00:57:06,930 --> 00:57:09,870 that's, that's the advantage of the private sector, we can do 841 00:57:09,870 --> 00:57:14,520 things we have many, many resources. And by conferring 842 00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:18,120 with colleagues, we can certainly advance the knowledge 843 00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:25,650 in this particular field. And I'm, I suspect, that even though 844 00:57:27,990 --> 00:57:32,400 you know, my, my source of, of UAP, and UFO information has 845 00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:37,140 dried up from one aspect. There's no question that because 846 00:57:37,140 --> 00:57:41,310 Canadian politicians are now moving forward on this as well, 847 00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,060 that there's going to be some pressure on the Canadian 848 00:57:45,060 --> 00:57:51,120 government to do something. And something not necessarily, in 849 00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,190 conjunction with the United States, I think there's 850 00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:55,860 certainly some national pride that has to be involved here. 851 00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:01,170 It's a matter of fact, one of the Canadian politicians has, 852 00:58:01,530 --> 00:58:05,850 has agreed to make a public statement at my book launch in 853 00:58:05,850 --> 00:58:10,110 September. And that's, and I don't know what he's going to 854 00:58:10,230 --> 00:58:14,010 going to say. But it's going to be something about, you know, 855 00:58:14,010 --> 00:58:16,800 the government's position on UFOs, or an encouragement of the 856 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:21,720 government position on UFOs. And I suspect that in the coming 857 00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:26,610 weeks, months years, there'll be some more information. And 858 00:58:26,670 --> 00:58:31,890 matter of fact, there have been, I think, five or six times just 859 00:58:31,890 --> 00:58:35,820 over the past year, when Canadian politicians have given 860 00:58:35,820 --> 00:58:38,910 presentations or asked questions in parliamentary committees, 861 00:58:39,270 --> 00:58:44,610 about UFOs. I haven't heard that in Congress. Congress seems to 862 00:58:44,610 --> 00:58:47,400 be busy with other things these these days. I don't know what, 863 00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:52,440 but at least in Canada, there have been some questions of the 864 00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:54,750 minister in charge of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the 865 00:58:54,750 --> 00:58:57,300 minister in charge of the Canadian Security Intelligence 866 00:58:57,300 --> 00:59:03,930 Agency, and the minister in charge of transport, and 867 00:59:03,930 --> 00:59:07,380 therefore, you know, and also involved in nuclear capability, 868 00:59:07,380 --> 00:59:10,200 because there has been some questions about are there UAPs 869 00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:14,280 over Canadian nuclear facilities? I was asked to 870 00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:21,360 provide a list of UFOs from my 25,000 database, from Canadian 871 00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:25,890 Nuclear plants for that particular politician, and I 872 00:59:25,890 --> 00:59:30,450 found 50 Just concerning one particular nuclear facility. 873 00:59:30,660 --> 00:59:33,810 Now, does that mean that aliens are fascinated with Canadian 874 00:59:33,810 --> 00:59:37,050 nuclear facilities? No, it simply means that, that, you 875 00:59:37,050 --> 00:59:39,810 know, there are UAP reports concurrent with the locations of 876 00:59:39,810 --> 00:59:44,310 the facilities facilities, but it does raise the issue that, 877 00:59:44,670 --> 00:59:47,880 you know, if if there are some cases that are unexplained, 878 00:59:48,180 --> 00:59:51,720 which, you know, are any of these particular cases, the ones 879 00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:53,850 around nuclear facilities, and that's the ones that the 880 00:59:53,850 --> 00:59:55,200 politicians want to know about. 881 00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,950 John Greenewald: So the 50 over the course of what you've 882 00:59:58,950 --> 01:00:03,450 collected at first didn't sound impressive, but 50 cases at one 883 01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:04,860 nuclear facility? 884 01:00:05,340 --> 01:00:07,470 Chris Rutkowski: Yeah, that are concurrent with one nuclear 885 01:00:07,470 --> 01:00:08,070 facility. 886 01:00:08,460 --> 01:00:12,240 John Greenewald: So do you have a tally of how many overall of 887 01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,210 all the nuclear? I don't know how many nuclear facilities are 888 01:00:15,300 --> 01:00:16,410 are in Canada? So? 889 01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:20,670 Chris Rutkowski: No, there's, I don't know how many there are. 890 01:00:20,670 --> 01:00:25,530 There's, there's, there's three or four alone in the province of 891 01:00:25,530 --> 01:00:28,290 Ontario. And we did a similar one for one of the other 892 01:00:28,290 --> 01:00:32,280 facilities. And there are also, you know, some significant 893 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,340 numbers, you know, 20 3040, something like that over that 894 01:00:35,340 --> 01:00:41,280 one. But it's related to, you know, trees falling in the 895 01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:46,860 forest, that you know, that that population distribution is 896 01:00:46,860 --> 01:00:51,450 related to UFO reports. So the greater population in a 897 01:00:51,450 --> 01:00:55,290 particular area, the more that there will be a potential for 898 01:00:55,290 --> 01:00:57,660 UFO reports, and we get more reports so that there's a 899 01:00:57,660 --> 01:01:01,620 concentration of UFO reports coming from populated centers 900 01:01:01,620 --> 01:01:06,900 like Toronto, and Vancouver. And it turns out that at least one 901 01:01:06,900 --> 01:01:09,990 of the nuclear facilities happens to be quite close to 902 01:01:09,990 --> 01:01:14,490 Toronto. So, you know, it's hard to say, yes, these nuclear 903 01:01:14,490 --> 01:01:18,870 facilities are, are being flown by by UAPs? Or is it that, you 904 01:01:18,870 --> 01:01:21,390 know, people are living nearby the nuclear facility? And that's 905 01:01:21,390 --> 01:01:24,660 why they're seeing UFOs? It's an interesting question. But this 906 01:01:24,660 --> 01:01:28,950 just shows you how much potential there is for private 907 01:01:28,950 --> 01:01:32,490 sector research, and probably military sector is here to into 908 01:01:32,490 --> 01:01:35,700 the UFO phenomena, putting aside the whole alien thing. This is 909 01:01:35,700 --> 01:01:37,740 quite interesting. And I think it's worth studying. 910 01:01:38,430 --> 01:01:40,710 John Greenewald: Just to close up that thought on the nuclear 911 01:01:40,710 --> 01:01:43,620 facilities, it obviously came up with a congressional hearing 912 01:01:43,890 --> 01:01:48,210 here in brief when they were talking about that, in your 913 01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:51,270 expertise and background going through those, you know, 1000s 914 01:01:51,270 --> 01:01:55,860 of reports, do those numbers stick out beyond, you know, 915 01:01:55,860 --> 01:01:59,280 potentially just populated areas? But did they stick out as 916 01:02:00,540 --> 01:02:06,300 weighted to those meaning? Is that a lot? Or if I came to and 917 01:02:06,300 --> 01:02:09,660 said, Chris, I want to know, how many are near a ballpark, you 918 01:02:09,660 --> 01:02:13,770 know, a stadium? And, you know, would you find 10 times as many? 919 01:02:13,770 --> 01:02:17,280 Or would you find a fraction? That's what I'm trying to kind 920 01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:18,120 of gauge is? 921 01:02:18,990 --> 01:02:21,780 Chris Rutkowski: Is it statistically significant? Yeah, 922 01:02:21,810 --> 01:02:23,940 John Greenewald: that's how much more eloquent way to put it than 923 01:02:23,940 --> 01:02:24,360 I did. 924 01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,740 Chris Rutkowski: And we haven't actually done that. I mean, I 925 01:02:28,740 --> 01:02:31,620 simply came up with the list, and now we have to go back and 926 01:02:31,620 --> 01:02:37,200 take a look at them. But and I caution people, you know, when 927 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,510 people say that there's a, in fact, there's a photo that was 928 01:02:39,510 --> 01:02:44,880 published on a on a Facebook page, just the other day, that 929 01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,940 said that there's a, you know, this UFO was hovering over this 930 01:02:47,940 --> 01:02:52,530 nuclear facility. And what they were the the object turned out 931 01:02:52,530 --> 01:02:59,010 to be the planet Saturn. photographed, you know, over the 932 01:02:59,010 --> 01:03:03,390 edge just happen to be that it was the direction of the nuclear 933 01:03:03,390 --> 01:03:07,620 facility from the witness. But the interpretation was that the 934 01:03:07,620 --> 01:03:10,440 UFO was over the nuclear facility, which it wasn't 935 01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:14,280 obviously. But that's the type of thing we have to be careful 936 01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:18,720 of when we hear UFO is seen over nuclear sites. Is it really over 937 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,840 the nuclear sites? Or is it seen in the direction of the nuclear 938 01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:25,830 site? And that is something that really has to be taken a closer 939 01:03:25,830 --> 01:03:26,220 look at? 940 01:03:27,150 --> 01:03:29,070 John Greenewald: Here's my last question for you just out of 941 01:03:29,070 --> 01:03:33,870 everything you've collected, but broadening it a little bit. I 942 01:03:33,870 --> 01:03:37,140 won't hold you to the exact number. But do you have an idea 943 01:03:37,260 --> 01:03:41,010 of those 1000s of cases that you've collected, how many you 944 01:03:41,010 --> 01:03:42,480 would consider unidentified 945 01:03:47,100 --> 01:03:51,690 Chris Rutkowski: out of the 25,000, in the Canadian UFO 946 01:03:51,690 --> 01:03:57,930 survey, and I'll just add, that's just from 1989. Till now, 947 01:03:57,930 --> 01:04:03,570 I also have a body of files from previous to that. But just for 948 01:04:03,570 --> 01:04:08,460 the 25,000. You know, if we're looking at and I think we 949 01:04:08,460 --> 01:04:14,970 calculated, let's use 1%. As a as a value, you know, you're 950 01:04:14,970 --> 01:04:22,680 looking at 250 cases, over 30 years, that are relatively high 951 01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:28,800 quality, perhaps the witnesses were police, or pilots. And 952 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,470 there has been some, you know, additional documentation. 953 01:04:31,470 --> 01:04:34,350 Perhaps this is a file from the National Research Council or 954 01:04:34,350 --> 01:04:37,350 from national defense or something like that, or was 955 01:04:37,350 --> 01:04:43,710 investigated by myself or one of the many colleagues that are UFO 956 01:04:43,710 --> 01:04:48,840 investigators in Canada, that that do a pretty decent job. So, 957 01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,680 you know, top 250 cases, that's still enough to work with. 958 01:04:54,150 --> 01:04:56,880 John Greenewald: That's awesome, Chris, I really enjoyed our 959 01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,790 conversation as I usually do. But thank you so much for taking 960 01:04:59,790 --> 01:05:03,300 the time. I'm for those of you again listening and or watching 961 01:05:03,300 --> 01:05:07,500 here on YouTube. Canada's UFOs declassified that is Chris's 962 01:05:07,500 --> 01:05:11,100 newest. And Chris I had no idea how many books you actually did 963 01:05:11,100 --> 01:05:14,280 right and you wrote quite a few but prepping for the show. I 964 01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:18,780 kind of looked him up and had no idea and they go back 20 years I 965 01:05:18,780 --> 01:05:19,980 think is when you if 966 01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:23,310 Chris Rutkowski: this were, this is number 10. The Canada's UFO 967 01:05:23,310 --> 01:05:24,960 declassified man good 968 01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:28,470 John Greenewald: good for you. i I've written a couple but the 969 01:05:28,470 --> 01:05:32,130 can't even imagine. I have them. They're good. I appreciate that. 970 01:05:32,130 --> 01:05:36,120 Thank you. I'll give you your $10 After thank you okay. No, I 971 01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:39,630 appreciate that. But, yeah, a lot of respect for what you do. 972 01:05:39,630 --> 01:05:44,130 And thank you so much. In closing, is there a website that 973 01:05:44,130 --> 01:05:47,250 you can point people to social media that you prefer? How can 974 01:05:47,250 --> 01:05:48,540 people get in contact with you? 975 01:05:49,650 --> 01:05:52,350 Chris Rutkowski: Sure. I mean, I'm, I'm on Twitter as you 976 01:05:52,350 --> 01:05:59,130 follow as you research on Facebook. I'm an admin for UFO 977 01:05:59,130 --> 01:06:06,270 updates on Facebook. And my website for the Canadian UFO 978 01:06:06,270 --> 01:06:11,790 survey is Canadian UFO report.com. And I have a blog, 979 01:06:11,910 --> 01:06:17,670 which is u forum UFO R U m.blogspot.com. Where I talk 980 01:06:17,670 --> 01:06:21,480 about interesting developments and new phonology and make 981 01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,570 available some hitherto unseen UFO documents. 982 01:06:25,140 --> 01:06:27,300 John Greenewald: Very, very cool. And to make sure that the 983 01:06:27,300 --> 01:06:30,150 audience gets all that I will ensure that it is all in the 984 01:06:30,150 --> 01:06:33,510 show notes. If you're not sure where those are, if you're on 985 01:06:33,510 --> 01:06:36,360 YouTube, just look below in the description. If you are 986 01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,530 listening on any podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, you 987 01:06:40,530 --> 01:06:43,380 name it, it's under the black vault radio. There should be a 988 01:06:43,380 --> 01:06:46,740 description there for you to click on all of Chris's links 989 01:06:46,830 --> 01:06:49,860 and find out more information. Chris, thank you again for your 990 01:06:49,860 --> 01:06:51,540 time. Truly, truly appreciate it. 991 01:06:51,930 --> 01:06:53,040 Chris Rutkowski: Thank you for having me. 992 01:06:53,550 --> 01:06:55,650 John Greenewald: Anytime you're always welcome back and thank 993 01:06:55,650 --> 01:06:58,770 you. And thank you all for watching and listening. This is 994 01:06:58,770 --> 01:07:01,740 John Greenewald, Jr signing off, and we'll see you next time.