John Greenewald: Some call it the UFO leak of the century.
Others refer to it as the Wilson Davis documents. And some just
call it a downright hoax. These 15 pages, which were uploaded by
an anonymous account to a popular image sharing site,
Chronicle a secret meeting in Las Vegas, where a massive cover
up was revealed by a former high ranking military intelligence
official. As the story goes, Admiral Thomas Wilson met with
physicist Dr. Eric W. Davis. And it was during this meeting that
the admiral revealed secret alien technology being tested
within the private sector. We do Wilson, a former j to director
for intelligence and the Joint Chiefs of Staff said that
although he verified that the alien tech was real, and hidden
within the private sector, he was denied access to it. And his
career was threatened if he continued to pursue it. At least
that's the story as revealed in these notes. But is any of it
real? Or is this all an elaborate work of fiction,
concocted by an unknown hoax arias. My guest today believes
this document leak represents an extremely important and
potentially groundbreaking situation that was never
supposed to be seen by the public. His name is Jay. And he
runs project unity. Jay aims to build what he calls an
intellectual space for the free flow of ideas on disruptive
issues, from physics to metaphysics, theology, and
philosophy. And it is within this platform where he has spent
hours upon hours creating video content on all sorts of topics,
including the Wilson Davis documents, and he believes they
very well may be real. What evidence is there that makes him
think that's a possibility? Well, we're about to find out
together. Stay tuned. You're about to journey inside the
black vault.
That's right, everybody. As always, thank you so much for
tuning in and making this your podcast or your live stream of
choice. I'm your host, john Greenwald, Jr, founder and
creator of the black vault calm. And today, I'm revisiting a
topic that I've done a couple videos on, talked to a couple
guests about, and well, I kind of lean towards maybe these
documents just aren't genuine. But my guest today, I think it's
safe to say, feels quite differently than I do. Now. Jay,
from project unity, thank you so much for taking the time joining
me in my audience. I'm always always always eager to challenge
what I put out there. And I want to make sure my audience has all
of the information. So thank you for taking the time today.
Jay: Oh, thank you for inviting me, john, you know, I, I really
do appreciate an opportunity to have a sensible conversation
about this. And, you know, I think some of your listeners
will be aware of the fact that you and I have had some
disagreements on the Wilson documents in the past in a
public format. And, and I'll be the first to admit that I didn't
always keep my call on Twitter, which is difficult. But I just
want to say that, you know, regardless of differences
between us with the the Wilson documents, I've always respected
what you've done with the black vault. It's an incredible
library of information, you know, really is and yeah, I'm
looking forward to this, I think we're gonna have a productive
conversation. So again, thank you for inviting me.
John Greenewald: It's my pleasure. And thankfully, I
always keep my cool on Twitter. So I know I'm kidding.
Obviously, I have fallen in the trenches. I've fallen into those
trenches too, so I get it No worries. But what where I where
I want to start is obviously a little bit of your background
what I must say up front is that I truly appreciate and which is
why I wanted to invite Yon to talk about this topic is that
you seem so genuine and passionate about what you do and
and really digging in which I can appreciate and that's where
I felt that we would have a great conversation so that's
where I want to start is your background you started project
unity. Tell everybody who is not aware of it. What exactly is
that?
Jay: Yeah, well, I mean, it all just, you know, I could have
never predicted that I would end up doing this to be honest. You
know, I just kind of fell into this because and there's a
there's a long backstory really to me starting project unity and
a lot of it does come down to the more Consciousness related
issues of the phenomenon. And, you know, I have had my own
experiences I haven't ever had, you know, communications or
downloads, but I have had experiences that have seen
things in the sky and and that really did actually catalyze my
interest in wanting to dive into this subject. And I've only been
around for a few years, I started paying attention around
2017, like a lot of people, you know, when the New York Times
story came out, and things started to pick up the pace, so
I've only been invested in this for a short period of time. But
within that time, I've been very fortunate, you know, I put out a
couple of it was actually funnily enough the Wilson
documents that springboarded me into having an ability to
network with a few different people. Because before then I
was just uploading random things that I felt were important. And
I was doing a few different little videos just me basically
in the forest far away from civilization talking about this
stuff to a camera, because I just didn't want to be overheard
talking about this kind of issue at the beginning. But it
evolved, you know, I was lucky enough to get interested in the
Wilson documents. And I actually put out a little trailer for for
kind of a project that I was thinking of doing, which I'm
actually still in the plans of making. And it's starting to
develop and adapt a little more than when I first decided to
make it but I put out this trailer and Richard Dolan and a
few other people to notice that. And weirdly enough, that was
where I managed to get my foot in the door of connecting with a
few different people. And, sorry, let me just get a drink
of water. Because I'm talking very quickly, no worries, I just
want to make sure I don't fall over my words, no worries. So
always the same when I start off whenever I'm interviewing
someone or being interviewed, I always find that I'm talking too
quickly. Now you're doing great. But I'm yet to get back to it.
Essentially, I was I was able to get in contact with Ralph
Blumenthal and Leslie Kane. And that's because of a colleague of
mine that Richard Dolan introduced me to, who had a lot
of knowledge on the Wilson documents. And we put together
this kind of big breakdown. And literally within 24 hours of
doing that breakdown, we got contacted by Ralph and Leslie
and they were very interested so that there was a few different
things that happened from that, that allowed me to basically
secure the first interview with Ralph and Leslie, when they put
out their latest. I can't remember which article it was,
it wasn't obviously the first article, it was one in 2018. But
they gave me permission to have the first interview. And that
kind of put me on the map for a few different people. It was the
most viewed interview I've ever had, like I had had, like, you
know, 1000 views on my videos, or maybe just over 1000 views,
and this one got 20,000 within like, you know, a few weeks, so
it was a big uptick for me. And, and that's where people became
aware of my channel a little bit more. But yeah, I kind of try.
And I really try and broaden the conversation to involve
consciousness and nuts and bolts, because I think these are
very important things that should be maybe more
symbiotically approached and not necessarily seen as
bifurcations. And you know, two different subjects that should
be ignored from each other. I think that there's a very
complimentary aspect to the physical and the non physical
aspects of this conversation. So I try and bring it all together
as much as I can by just having different people on, you know,
talk about the nuts and bolts, talk about the consciousness,
talk about all the different issues that I find to be
interesting. And, and so I'm just trying to provide a
platform so that I can learn and through that other people can
learn because I don't pretend to be an authority on any of this,
especially the Wilson leaks. I don't pretend to be an authority
on it. But I've just been fortunate enough to have
conversations with people, network of people. And yeah,
I've been able to solidify myself as a member of the UFO
community in terms of as a researcher as a platform as a
channel. And yeah, if you'd if you'd gone back in time and
asked me a few years ago, if I'd be doing this, I would have said
absolutely not. But here I am. And and I'm happy to be here
tonight,
John Greenewald: I think, and I'm happy to have you. I think
we all feel that way. You know, we can all comfortably say yeah,
if you asked me 10 years ago. Now, I have to say if you asked
me 25 years ago, you know, I'm getting up there in age, but I
think we all feel that way we never expected but that's what
happens to us. One really interesting note for for the
audience, which was a very cool little tidbit of synchronicity
was doing research for all shows that I do, but I always love to
kind of see what the guest likes, you know, gear interviews
towards their interests. Obviously, we have a pretty
tight niche of what we're dealing with here. But I wanted
to really get in to project unity to what you did. And not
only do you do interviews, you do videos, you do audio only
stuff. So you have a wide array. So I would recommend everybody
check it out. Links are in the description below directly to
project unity, make sure that you subscribe. But one of the
videos you had was a show that I had produced for history channel
about Hitler and the occult. And I was like wait a minute, why?
Because again, with our you know, kind of rough start to our
history a couple years back, I thought what is that? What is it
so I have To say like, Oh my god, that was my, that was my
baby for a while and forgive me I misspoke. It was National
Geographic Channel, not history. But but it was a amazing little
thing of synchronicity there that you had pulled that clip.
And I remember writing that segment, I remember the actor, I
was friends with him for years, who played who actually played
Adolf Hitler in that show, and it was an amazing thing. So it's
fun to kind of see that synchronicity that I think we
have a lot more in common than we might have imagined
originally. So let me take you. Let me take you back to the the
Wilson Davis documents because you have done a lot of work,
doing the videos and researching, and I would
respectfully disagree, I think you are an authority. When I
asked on Twitter, who out there, you know, is somebody we should
talk to about this because I wanted to revisit, most of the
people said you there was a short list of people. You know,
you were you were on that list. So you're you're definitely in
authority. No pressure, no pressure. So, so don't mess
Don't mess this up, Jay. No, I but I wanted to say that just
simply because you have done that research. And that even
though we may not agree at the end, but who knows? By the end
of this, you've done that work so that I can appreciate. But
what made you look at the Wilson Davis documents. I mean, if you
walked up to somebody on the street, and they go, what's the
Wilson Davis documents? Why have you Why do you want to bring
attention to that? What would you say? Um,
Jay: well, I came across it. I think I think the main thing
that I saw first of all was actually Richard Dolan's video,
when he put out that first the leak of the century
presentation, I'm pretty sure that was my first time being
exposed to the notes maybe slightly before then maybe
someone has sent me a link to where it was hosted on on Imgur
or mg or whatever you call it. Yeah. But yeah, that was when I
first became aware of the documents. And, you know, I just
I downloaded them, I was reading through them. And I think what
interested me was that I, before I properly embedded myself in
the UFO conversation, like I said, I started in
consciousness. And one of the things I started in was kind of
going through, I think you'll appreciate this the CIA freedom
of information, that library is just trying to find anything I
can on, you know, mysterious physics, exotic concepts. And
you know, and I was finding a lot of this remote viewing stuff
in Stanford Research Institute, and how put off and so I was
hearing mention of these people. And I had seen interviews of
people like Edgar Mitchell, when he was first talking about this
issue. But I hadn't had that time before I was, you know,
before I saw the nodes, I hadn't threaded these people together
in that way. So when I saw the notes, and they were all being
mentioned within it, and you had, you know, Greer, and you
have Miller and Mitchell, I was just like, Okay, I'm interested
in this. And I at the time, like I said, I just kind of wanted
to, I think what what I was planning to do at the beginning,
once I decided that this was interesting enough to go through
was I was going to do like a dramatized reading of the notes.
So I was kind of writing out like a script, almost where I
fleshed out a script.
John Greenewald: I'm just trying to
Jay: me all along, john, it's my years ago, I'm I'm older than I
look. Now, but it's a serious seriously, I was looking at
writing, like kind of like a more fleshed out version of it,
so that I could read it in a in a dramatize way, but still have
all of the necessary, you know, components of the notes
included. And I never really got around to doing that. And it's
evolved into something else that I'm looking to do now. But um,
yeah, that's where my interest started. And so I put out this
little promotional video for those notes. And like I said, I
got connected to Richard Dolan and a few other people. And now
I'm, you know, very good friends with James Rigby and Ross
Coltart and a few of the others who've been involved in this in
this research effort. And I just, I just think that's it,
it's worthy. It's, I honestly think it's worthy of trying to
keep this within the conversation and not let it
gather dust in the attic and just become a long forgotten
story. I would never say that everything in that document is
100%. Real. And I know that as a fact, because that would be
really arrogant. And it's not true. I don't know that I just
don't. But I do think that this represents a potential situation
where you've got a very clear indication of subversion of
standardized governmental oversight on programs. You've
got very, you know, compelling information about the idea that
they are keeping very sensitive technologies and materials away
from the public in relation to UFOs and potentially
extraterrestrials we don't know. So I just think that when you
look at other areas of this research effort, it's not like
this is the only example that is hinting towards hidden programs
and black programs and reverse engineering. We've got you know,
quite a few different examples, one that I would like to
highlight because it was actually in my recent interview
with Ross co And I think a lot of people now know about this
example is, is the former director of the US Navy Science
and Technology Division Nat ko bits. And he was interviewed by
Ross who met him the man was unfortunately dying of cancer.
And and he he did confirm to Ross on the you know, when he
was speaking with him that he had been involved, he'd been
read into and briefed on retrieval and re engineering
programs that he was shown very anomalous metals, because he
kind of you know, was, he was the head honcho of the science
and tech division of the US Navy had a lot of bone a few days in
that in that kind of subject matter. So we've got lots of
different converging possibilities, this stuff's
real. And I just think that the admiral Wilson leaks is one of
those areas, which should perhaps be scrutinized more, and
just, I just don't want to see it left alone and fade away from
memory. I, you know, it's not like we can break the door open
with this right now. But I think that developments are still
possible in the future with this, if we keep it going, if we
keep asking questions, if we keep bringing it up and going,
Hey, but what about this? Can you answer this question about
these leaks? Maybe one day, we'll get an another notch up on
the development ladder. But yeah, I just don't want to see
it stay as a static situation in the shadows of UFO ology, you
John Greenewald: know, sure. Yeah, no, I understand that. We
don't have to go through every, like bullet point of the Wilson
Davis documents, just because you have done an extensive
overview of it. On my channel, I've done you know, minus the
theory, which we'll get into later, in extensive overview. So
I kind of want to move forward with the understanding the
audience who's watching this probably has a rough overview of
what the notes are. But let me ask you, though, what do you
feel out of the notes, is the most important part that you
feel shouldn't be lost, you know, to history. But what what
is that one thing that you take away from the notes?
Jay: Unfortunately, there isn't. It's not about one thing, it's
about a coalescing of data is about a compounding of
information. It's about chronological, historical
context of statements made by various people involved. So I
mean, I can't give you one smoking gun, the actual document
itself I would consider to be a smoking gun, but that's because
of all of the information outside of it. It's not just ink
on paper, there are statements from people involved. Edgar
Mitchell, Eric Davis, help put off you know, there were, there
were interesting comments and interesting events that
transpired. So I, you know, I, like I said, I've got a lot of
notes here. I don't want to have to take up the whole time going
through every single one. But I do have quite a few different
things I'd like to go through. I mean, three on it. You know, the
first thing that I think is worth mentioning is Edgar
Mitchell, right? So Apollo Apollo 14 astronauts, six months
walk on the moon, you know, incredibly intelligent and
honorable man. And you know what we know about these documents.
We know they came from a reputable source. It's an
absolute fact that these documents were rescued from
Edgar Mitchell's estates by a close friend after Edgar passed
away because his family were looking to get rid of many of
his files, you know, and this friend, who is known to two of
my colleagues, James Rigney, and Ross Coltart discovered the
documents and I think most people who have looked into this
situation know the chronology of the the events from here they
went from the friend of Edgar Mitchell to James Rigney from
James Rigby to Grand Cameron and through a small group connected
to grant eventually they were leaked online. Nothing is also
worth mentioning to be further these were not the only UFO
related documents in Akers files, which is not massive
surprise, but Ross Coulter was permitted to be the primary
Archivist of Edgar's files by his family friend who wishes to
remain anonymous, you know, and there are good reasons for that.
And there is far more in his archives than just the Wilson
documents. But these documents I think, are the most explicit in
relation to potential cover ups and sensitive programs. Right.
So I think that was important to remember is that Edgar Mitchell
was in a key position within Robert Bigelow's research group,
the National Institute of discovery science, better known
as knids. And, you know, Edgar was on the advisory board member
of Ned's alongside both Dr. Eric W. Davis and Dr. help put off.
And so the very idea that this transcript between Eric and the
admiral would be circulated amongst the core group of a high
of highly qualified individuals within the Advisory Board of a,
an institute that was essentially dedicated to
uncovering the truth around paranormal and UFO related
issues. This, you know, the, the Institute of nibs, it's
extremely likely that these individuals would actually
communicate and trust each other on something like this, you
know, they were for the most part, all holding security
clearances, and they knew how to keep a secret. So the idea that
Eric would share this information with the likes of
for example, it can Mitchell or help us off is not outrageous.
You know, in fact, it's extremely likely in my opinion,
that this was even and it's outlined in the notes when
Admiral Wilson asks Eric, what he intends to do with the notes
to which he responds that he'll be using it for private research
efforts to better I think he says understand the signal to
noise ratio within you, ufology. So I think Eric circulating
these documents amongst trusted colleagues within knids is very
likely. But um, yeah, there's a few different points I've got on
Edgar Mitchell. So I wonder if you
John Greenewald: can I can just jump in. I'm you have all the
time you want. But I want to just ask a question on that.
Because this is something I'm curious about. Yeah. Is there
anybody, including the friend that's not named foreword, that
can speak to the context of why Edgar Mitchell had these notes
in his archive?
Jay: Let me just unpack that question. So is there any Is
there anyone who is what come out on the record that can
attest?
John Greenewald: Right, they can say, and this will kind of lead
into other questions, but I don't want to take away from
what you want to go through. So I'm not trying to derail that.
But where I'm going to go where I'm going with this is a this is
a silly example, in my archive, right, I've got a national
enquirer article that was obtained through the Freedom of
Information Act from the National Security Agency. Does
that mean that I believe that that national enquirer article
is real? No, of course not. But the context of why I have it is
the story. That's where I'm curious, like, why did Mitchell
have these I can somebody really say, what Eric Davis gave him?
Jay: The things I think, I think the the best person to refer
back to as Edgar Mitchell himself, because he does confirm
that there was a report generated much later than the
phone calls that they received from Admiral Wilson that
confirmed his denial of access that they received a report much
later than that, that confirmed the legitimacy of the admirals
denial of access. So yeah, I mean, obviously, you don't have
direct Eric said this, but it seems to be implying that there
was some level of extensive report about the admirals
situation that was then given two members of the Ned circle,
which as I highlighted before, they were all in this trusted
network of trying to figure out the truth about this situation.
And then situations like this also, I and I'll acknowledge
that I can't remember the source. But I know that he did
say this. Edgar Mitchell did say that a colleague of his
interviewed Admiral Wilson in Las Vegas, that is an on record
statement that can be found online. I can't remember exactly
where I'd be happy to try and find it after the fact and post
on Twitter for anyone interested. But
John Greenewald: yeah, and I want just not to step on you. I
won't dispute that I believe that it was UFO Joe's blog. And
I believe that the insinuation was that Eric date? And I think
it goes to Well, I actually I don't want to misspeak. I
thought it was how put off saying that one of his
colleagues and interviewed and they felt that how put off had
slipped up when he gave that comment that
Jay: I've got that comment as well here and I'll
John Greenewald: show you're talking about something
different. Okay. And so then I didn't want to misspeak.
Jay: Yeah, I, I'm sure UFO Joe would probably have it on his
fantastic very, very long breakdown of the of the Wilson
notes on his blog, so people can have a look through there, I
will try and find this because I don't want to say something and
then not be able to back it up. But I thought there was a quote
from from Edgar Mitchell, where he did say he didn't say Eric,
but he said a colleague of his went to Las Vegas and
interviewed the Admiral. So, you know, I just think I just think
that usually I wouldn't base it so loosely on just someone
else's statements, but we're talking about Edgar Mitchell,
and he's a special Boy, you know, because he's a very
honorable, honorable man. He's a very, he's had a lot of
integrity, a lot of intelligence, a lot of
patriotism and a lot of passion for this subject. And, and I
just, I just can't envision him saying things like this, if it
wasn't representative of a situation that he was very, very
familiar with, he wouldn't go on record about it. I mean, for you
know, there's, there's actually a good example of this, if he
absolutely knew he shouldn't go on record about something or if
he absolutely felt that it wasn't necessary to do so. He
wouldn't do it. And one example of that, which was actually
recently brought to light is the fact that he's always on record,
as well, not always, but very frequently on record started by
saying, I just want to preface that I myself have never seen a
UFO. That's not true. He did see a UFO and he didn't see it
because of national security restrictions, because he was a
NASA astronaut. And, and so I think that, you know, he's
someone who chooses his words very carefully. And I think that
when it comes to talking about a situation as delicate as this, I
just, I just think that Edgar Mitchell can be relied on as
quite a strong voice of reason. And and he has made some very
significant hints towards Eric being the one who went out and
into George's and so yes, you're right, there's no direct naming,
but I just
John Greenewald: Yeah, I do want to add one thing because I get a
lot of heat from this. And this may have I don't remember, but
it may have been, you know, part of the rift between you and I
regarding Edgar Mitchell. I've met Edgar Mitchell quite a few
times I had dinner with him. speaking at conferences with him
shared stages with him, I believe I was on a panel with
him, if I remember correctly, I could be wrong on the panel
part. But regardless, there's pictures of me on stage with
them. And the reason why I bring that up is I am not attacking
Edgar Mitchell, he is an American hero, you know, the
space program is something that that I'm a huge fan of my father
worked within it. So I'm very sensitive about those types of
things. But in the same respect, and this, that all leads into my
question to you is, you're absolutely right. He's an
honorable man. Right? And and you're absolutely right, his
intentions, I believe, are pure, I had no bad feeling I get bad
feelings about a lot of people, Edgar Mitchell is not one of
them. But my question is, is it possible that he was told that
this was true, and was too trusting by whomever told him?
Jay: I don't believe so. Because this was something that very
clearly seems to have been circulated amongst the core
group of needs. And I do have details about why I believe that
it was absolutely circulated amongst the core group. And
this, this group did not have within their, you know, network,
the possibility for a falsified script about one of their
members to be circulated amongst this group, and then later
spoken about, essentially, by Edgar Mitchell on on TV. So I
don't think that that's the case, because I think that
there's relatively good evidence to suggest that Eric Davis did
indeed write these notes in including, and, you know,
because I like I said, I've got a lot of notes here, but I think
is relevant for what we're talking about right now. How put
off right. He's given some interesting comments in respect
to Admiral Wilson leaks, because whether it was a slip of the
tongue or a deliberate, delicate and cleverly worded response,
how put off confirms that Eric Davis met with an interview with
Admiral Wilson. Now we'll see that how put off has made
comments about this, claiming that he was merely reciting the
question back for the audience. But I don't think his wording
makes this very likely. But he's
John Greenewald: gonna have the quote in front of you that you
can
Jay: hear is what how put off said during the q&a session of
the transition torque conference that took place in February of
2020. He said, this is a question about the Wilson
documents that apparently got leaked on the internet. Admiral
Wilson was one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff interviewed by
my sign his senior scientists colleague, Eric Davis, since it
discusses potentially ongoing programs, I have no comment. Now
that first section this this is a question about the Wilson
documents that apparently got leaked on the internet. That
part's absolutely nothing other than how put off reciting by the
question to the audience. But the next part doesn't read in a
way that sounds like he's reciting it back, help us off,
says Admiral Wilson was one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
interviewed by my senior scientists colleague, not
Admiral Wilson was supposed to be one of his lead literally
says Admiral Wilson was. And it just doesn't seem like he's
reciting here. It sounds like he's telling you that Eric
interview the admiral, and then he finishes off with saying he
won't discuss it because it relates to potentially ongoing
programs. I mean, you know, I kind of feel like he's he's
trying to be as clear as he can. This is not a simple No comment.
This is a linguistically strategized statement that
allows how to acknowledge the fact that this occurred without
directly saying it and therefore negating any breaches and
national security.
John Greenewald: Okay, I mean, what's tough about that is we
are reading into potentially what he could or could not have
meant. And I think that that's what's very challenging, about
statements like that. But I'm glad that you have the quote,
because I wanted to make sure that we had that, you know,
exact. Yeah. Other than that, though, how put off has has
primarily given no comments he gave one to James I, endo Lee,
engaging the phenomenon that was the one that I was able to
source for the the video that I did, but I know he's given that
quite quite a few times. I'm kind of jumping around in my
head on the questions, but since we're on no comments, I just
want to throw this question out.
Jay: I'm sure I'll just want to say real quick. Sorry, john, but
I'm sure that most people are aware that, you know, Richard
Dolan was provided two pages of the notes way back in the early
2000s by someone very closely associated with nids and to the
stars Academy. And when these documents were publicly leaked
this this same individual confirmed to Richard off the
record that the documents are legitimate, so obviously, take
what you will from anonymity, but I respect Richard Dolan. And
I know he is telling the truth about his individual both
providing him with a small portion of the documents early
on, and and then also confirming their legitimacy when the leaks
occurred. And you know, he remains nameless, but I People
can fill in the blanks if
John Greenewald: you need it. Well, you answered my question.
So so just for clarity, we don't know who that is. I would rather
not comment on that. So you Okay, so you possibly know who
that is? I'm talking about the collective. Yeah, yeah, they
know me, I have no idea.
Jay: That's why that's why I'm saying take anonymity from what
you will but I respect that you and I work ethic and his honesty
in this so. Okay. And and to be fair, real quick. Kitt green
also spoke with Richard Dolan. You know, he gave me an on
record comment about the Wilson documents. But he gave Richard
permission to say publicly that Kate green also gave him an off
record comment about these links. So again, take from that
what you will, but all of this pushes the needle further
towards this being legit, because these people don't want
to acknowledge this publicly for very obvious reasons. But see,
what was what was the off
John Greenewald: record part of that?
Jay: We don't know. It was off record, but he's good. He gave
an on record statement. I can't remember specifically what that
statement was. But yeah, cuz I was, you know, speaking with
Richard Dolan recently about it. And he said, Yeah, you know,
what, Kate green, gave me a non record statement and then said,
after they got off record, well, I can give you a give you an off
record statement, or Richard Dolan asked him and he agreed.
And then Richard did ask him, can I say that you gave me an
off record statement? And Kitt. Green said, Yes.
John Greenewald: So we have no idea what the record stuff is. I
mean, obviously, it's off
Jay: record. But all I'm saying is, it's just like little like,
why would you need to give an off record statement? Or why
would any of these people need to give off record statements
that apparently, they can't give publicly? And especially when
they haven't actually denied it publicly? Anyway, like Hell's
never denied it? Eric's never denied it. So it's,
John Greenewald: well, okay. And I want to and I want to zone in
on that, since that was brought up here. Because I think that
that is one thing that is brought up a lot. May I ask, and
really quickly, and then I'll expand a little bit? Yep. I've
ever spoken to anyone with a security clearance outside of
the UFO sphere, meaning, you know, you probably have talked
to how put off it sounds like, obviously, he likely either had
or has a security clearance, whatever the answer is, but
outside, have you interviewed anybody and asked them about
security class of classification? And how they
handle talking about classified information? No, not
specifically, I don't think of okay. So I because I don't know,
I don't have a security clearance, and so on. So I
reached out to a small handful of those that do have security
clearances, I can say there are a couple of them that are inside
the Pentagon currently working now. And one that is for a
contractor. In short, I asked them what happens when you have
a classified question posed your way meaning if I if I pulled up
a document, and I said, Okay, this is allegedly top secret,
and they have a top secret clearance. Can you tell me if
this is real or not? And and I didn't, you know, it's not a UFO
document. I'm just saying anything of classification. And
across the board, everybody said, No, you never comment on
it. And the legality is the fact that you are now acting as a
spokesperson for the United States government. Even as silly
as that sounds. It's it's the way that it would be handled
that if you omit a possibility about it, if you say no, if you
say no, that this is not real, that you potentially infringe on
the security oath that you took. So the no comment across the
board. Everybody said the same thing. And no, they do not know
each other. And no, I did not say what the other person had
said. Across the board, they said no, no comment that that's
how they would handle it. And that if you do, sorry,
Jay: that kind of proves the point, because they wouldn't
want to bring down the wrath of the US government national
security on top of their head. So they've never said no, or
Yes, they've been very,
John Greenewald: that's correct. But But where I'm going with
this is a lot of people and I Joe's not here, so I don't want
to make it seem like I'm picking on him. However, I just know his
blog, and it said, they denied it. And in numerous occasions,
mostly with with the will will Miller stuff. When he said like
no comment or whatever. He said, Well, can you can you blame
them? He would have to do that because he wants to keep it
secret. So it seems like there's a leap when you hear a no
comment, that that automatically means that there's some kind of
confirmation of when
Jay: sorry, I don't want to interrupt you, john, please. No,
no,
John Greenewald: no, you're all good.
Jay: I've got I think that we really need to examine what no
comment would be. And especially I think when you talk about
someone like Eric Davis, so Eric Davis, who's supposedly the
author of these notes, Joe Meaux You would be able to attest to
this more than anyone he's good friends very Davis. He's
communicated back and forth. Davis has zero tolerance on BS.
He is very outspoken, he's very quick to like, you know, kind of
jump on anything that he thinks is is ridiculous or not worth
his time or, you know, and I think that the statements that
he's made in relation to this document are so against the
personality traits are very dangerous when dealing with
fabrications or lies, especially when they are literally
implicating him in this situation. So, you know, another
another really interesting aspect of this whole scenario is
the Steven Greenstreet interview with Eric Davis. And this is the
one that he did for the New York Post. This interview has
subsequently been deleted. It has been kept alive via a
transcript on Joe merges blog. But there's no questioning that
the the interview happened plenty of people in the UFO
community saw this interview. And the statement that Eric
Davis gives during this interview. I just it's
incredibly interesting series of comments. And I've got it here.
Actually, I've got what he said. Stephen Greenstreet was very
awesome. He was very persistent with this because he asked about
the Wilson documents. And first of all, Eric Davis is like, I'm
not saying anything about the Wilson documents. Eventually,
though, after literally about three times of him saying but
you're all over this document, you've got to talk about this.
Well, you know, why won't you talk about this? He said this? I
can't address that at all. I won't answer any questions on
the admiral Wilson notes. They're purportedly classified
information. I'm not at liberty to confirm or verify any aspect
of those notes. You know, when you have security clearances,
that's something you don't want to violate, because the
Department of Justice under the Obama administration, and its
continued under the Trump administration policies, is they
will vigorously prosecute anybody with security
clearances, who will go out of their way to discuss any
classified information that got leaked or released into the
public illegally, or through other means now, like, john,
with all due respect, how can we look at that as a no comment?
That's not just a No comment.
John Greenewald: I mean, it. I'll be honest with you, I don't
see it the way that you do what he is saying. And this is one of
the rare occasions where I'm going to agree with Dr. Davis,
because, and we can talk about this I, I can prove that he is
disseminating false information about document, declassification
and UFO related information to a tip that's documented, there's
no, there's no way to dispute it. And he was very dismissive
and just plainly didn't care. So my credibility scale for Dr.
Davis is not as high as yours, however, with what you just
said. And that quote, I don't see it that way. That's exactly.
That's exactly the issue for anybody with a clearance, start
talking about information. Like the notes like what is purported
to be true in the notes that if you say no, then then you again,
are acting essentially as that spokesperson that you are
commenting on something that you are not tasked to comment on. So
is it isn't what you just read? I agree with Dr. Davis. And
yeah, I think I think he said it in black and white.
Jay: But it's, you know, they're very, they're blurring the
lines. This it's definitely linguistically created in a way
that doesn't make them say that they are denying or confirming
like, never have never held puts, or very Davis none of them
have ever confirmed or denied. That's that that's kind of the
point. They're sitting in this gray area, this little, no man's
land between bureaucracy, bureaucracy and freedom of
speech. And so they they're saying, I can't comment on or I
can't confirm or deny. But then that's the point. Like you're
saying, if if they say no, if they say, you know, no, it's not
real. Are you saying that simply that the if they say, No, I
refuse to comment on that they're in there in in essence,
implicating the fact that it's potentially sensitive
information? Is that what you're saying?
John Greenewald: No, I'm saying that what I am seeing from those
with security clearances are what you would legally be
obligated to do, which is skirt, that gray area, that you're not
taking a stance. I'll use a prime example in the press. In
the the press briefing card that I just released that got through
FOIA. It was created by the Pentagon on how to address UFO
related questions. One of which was were your findings
indicative of an extraterrestrial connection? And
they didn't say yes or no. And although that's very
interesting, from an intelligence standpoint, the
moment you say no, you're already hinting at what's in
your classified arena. So that's what I mean that that no comment
is the gray zone. And what I would recommend, and we can move
on or if you want to add anything else, please, I'm not
cutting you off. But we can move on from the no comment stuff.
But what I would say is, what you said how you are framing
them, is exactly how those that if you reach out to those with
clearances outside of the UFO arena, and just see how they
would handle that, it that is what you're supposed to do.
Yeah, do not negate it. You do not confirm it. You skate in the
middle and to comment, even a hint. And this was also
interesting that I didn't point out a few of them. They don't
know each other. I want to beat that dead horse. A few of them
said the exact same phrase, you're playing with fire. That
that was the phrase that multiple clearance holders used
with me trying to figure out how do people address classified,
you know, potentially classified questions.
Jay: I feel like we're getting I don't know if we're getting
stuck in a loop here. So we might have to break it. But I
just you saying that they say you never confirm it, nor you
deny it, you kind of stay in this gray area? Yeah, it's
relating to classified information. And that's what
they've done. They haven't confirmed or denied they've
stayed in this gray area. So it's not a script or a fiction.
It's potentially classified information, right. But they're
treating it like potentially classified information.
John Greenewald: true or not that that's right. That's what
they would have to do. And I think my grander point is that
and I'm not putting this accusation on you. But in what
I've seen about the Wilson Davis debate, is that the moment a no
comment comes out, it's like a hot seat. toldja. They have to
say that they're, they're, they're, they're lying, because
they have to. And what I'm trying to say is, no, they're
doing exactly what he was supposed to be they could they
could know in their head, that it none of it is true. But the
right answer is no comment that that is my overall point that
none of that means
Jay: to be why would they have to do that? If it's just a
script? If it's just a fiction, then it's not classified
information. So why the dance?
John Greenewald: If it's a script, you're talking about,
like the fun, I'm just
Jay: saying, based on like your assertions that it's maybe a
fictional situation, if it's fiction, if it's fictional, Eric
Davis didn't write it, and he very well knows it. Why is he
skirting a classified line of maybe I shouldn't talk about
this. Why is he not going? Hell? No, I didn't write this. And
this is about a real person, I have no Wilson, I'm not going to
be put into this situation and made to seem like I'm doing this
here protect his reputation. What I mean, like that's, that's
kind of what I'm saying about this is my point. Why would they
skirt the edges into this little gray area that you're saying is
kind of the prerequisite to discussing national security,
top secret clearance holding interests and sensitive data?
Why would Why would they skirt in that little middle ground
area of neither confirming or denying, which you just said is
the protocol if it's not classified information,
John Greenewald: because of how Dr. Davis answered it to Stephen
Green Street and the quote that you just read that that that
they don't want to touch it and again, I'm not using that just
to base what I'm saying on I'm talking about and I would
recommend you do this as well reach out to people with
security clearances that are willing to talk and ask them and
explore that. I do know people with security clearances, it's
just the you said specifically outside and outside Yeah, and
that's what I mean because
Jay: but even within that they still had security clearances
and and many of them are pro the Wilson law documents are a
recent one is Bob McGuire and not Bob McGuire, even though
he's he supports Frank Milburn, who was a former British Special
Forces intelligence guy. And and he's behind them now. So I think
that there's a few different card holding individuals that go
Yeah, that seems legit logical, and Frank Milburn's recently
come around on that he was previously skeptical. And he
said, You know what, after really looking into this, and
he's been doing work with I know that, you know, Brit Britain
Wonderland, that lovely young lady. And, and he's now
convinced that they are real. So there are people within the UFO
circles, who did hold security clearances, who are familiar
with the structure of that kind of, you know, kind of
bureaucratic system of what you can and can't say, I mean, Frank
Milburn knows he's under the Official Secrets Act. And trust
me, I mean, you should know, the British Official Secrets Act is
kind of a few levels above what you guys have got in the States,
we do not talk about anything. And so he knows when things are
kind of skirting the edges. And you know, I've asked questions
to him and where he can't answer them. So I think there are
people who are, you know, very knowledgeable of the inner
workings of government security clearances, and what you can and
can't say, who are on the side of this being real.
John Greenewald: So let's sum up and if you want to add anything,
by all means, I'm not cutting you off. But let's let's move on
from the no comment stuff. And talk about the credibility of
the individuals involved. I spoke briefly about Dr. Davis's
information that he's disseminated about at He in
public forum says you'll never find anything with a tip because
it has to go. I think his quote was 25 years before it can be
reviewed, all of which is provably false. And my question
to you is do any of these players, which have turned up
and a lot of different stories, you talk about Project serpo?
You know, you talk about some of these crazy out there stories
that have been around for many, many, many years. They all seem
to keep turning up. Dr. Davis is one of them that has turned up
in a couple of these types of situations. Do you feel across
the board that the main characters involved forgive the
word choice there, but the main people are credible? And you
don't question when they talk?
Jay: I don't think necessarily, I would say that I don't ever
question when they talk. You know, I've got a feel a healthy
drip of skepticism with a lot of different people that have come
out of the government structure into the UFO community in
whatever way and you know, I try and make sure I'm not being
overly biased on either on either side. But um, you know, I
think, I think when it comes to Eric Davis, I didn't actually I
didn't know about the ATF stuff. So you know, this is where your,
for your research and your expertise is shining a light on
something. But I do think that Eric Davis has developed as
demonstrated, even if you want to question his credibility, and
I'm sorry, if you're listening to this, Eric, because I do
appreciate you know,
John Greenewald: what, you're he's big, he's a big fan of the
show. So that's
Jay: what you're doing, Eric, but you know, he's, he's kind of
been demonstrated to have a bit of an ego and especially there
has been some, you know, publicly put out email threads
to bring actually bank back to Frank Melbourne in his baisa
Center, the Center for Strategic Studies, white paper that he did
for this defense journalists that well, this kind of think
tank, he had in there some email exchanges between Eric Davis and
jack sarfati, and a few other individuals. And you know, Eric
Davis's personality sure does come across when he's when he's
kind of being questioned. And and Joe murgia, can attest to
this, that he is very no BS kind of person. This is a story that
is telling a bold faced lie about Eric Davis. And if that's
the case, that's what I you know, hypothetically, if, if
it's just a fiction, he would he would have to say something
about it, there's no way that he would like the very, you know,
twisty turny quote that I just gave you from Steven green
streets interview about security restrictions in the Obama
administration and how he can't talk about potentially ongoing
programs. That's just not Eric, that's not Eric, that does not
work if it's if it's about him, and it's a lie, and it's making
him seem like he's doing something that would suck would
tarnish his reputation. I mean, you know, if if, if he doesn't
address the fact that a document that is in very clear
circulation of the public's, you know, the public's sphere, I
mean, within the niche of your apology, but still very much in
the public sphere and accessible to the public. If there was a
series of documents that were saying that he had gone to this
interview with, you know, a former director of the CIA, a
real person that they're really naming, he wouldn't let that sit
by I just I don't see that I see a very big disconnect between
his actual personality trend, and this and this idea, because
you're right, maybe, you know, he's obviously done things that
would make us question some of his credibility in terms of what
he says, and then he releases some documents, and he wasn't
supposed to or whatever that situation is that you're you're
highlighting there about the ativ situation. I think that
that doesn't detract from the fact that people who know Eric
Davis have said he would not put up with this, he would stomp his
foot down.
John Greenewald: Let me since you brought up the ego, we are
100% in in agreement there. He strikes me as somebody who would
want the attention. Do you believe that that? I mean, have
you considered that this group and I don't want to just pick on
him, but he absolutely. I think collectively we see that ego may
love that attention. And by playing into that, you feed that
ego I mean, I'm not saying that's 100% it but I'm saying
you can't get away from that, that when when some of these
guys and I'm broadening it here just to not pick on him. I truly
believe that they want the mystique around their character
to just make it seemed like they are either more important more
in the no more read in that maybe they really are. And I
hate to say it, but he strikes me as the same And I go back to
that, again that that public display of of information,
educating public forums about document, declassification, and
so on. That's just not true. And so what was that? Right? You
have a couple different things. It could just be he didn't know.
And that's fine. totally understandable. But he didn't
care about any type of rebuttal with cited sources and so on. So
then is it misinformation? Is he maliciously doing that? Or is it
I want the attention, and I know more than this entire forum. So
I am going to tell everybody how much I know. Does he strike you
as that type of a person?
Jay: Well, I think it's worth considering Now, of course, but
I think that it's probably caused more probably seems to
have caused more problems than it has he it's not like he's
exactly keen to mention it. He never mentions it unless someone
brings it up. And then he's kind of tries to skirt around it. And
in fact, he won't answer anything now because he's in
Aerospace Corporation. An Aerospace Corporation is a big
deal. And and he won't talk to anyone now about anything that
could be going on to an open record statement. And I think
that people like how and Eric, I don't know them, I've never met
them personally. And although you said that you feel I've
spoken to how I actually haven't, I haven't had any
apologies, I
John Greenewald: thought you had apologize.
Jay: I'm just just confirming for the record, you know, I
haven't had close interactions with these people. I've had a
couple of email exchanges very Davis. But the last one was
basically saying now that I'm with Aerospace Corporation, I
can't answer any questions that you know, yada, yada. I think
that I honestly think these people are probably trying to
get the golden ticket. I think they want to get into the inner
sanctum of these classified programs and find out as much as
possible. And and who knows, potentially, maybe every day,
there are people that believe that Aerospace Corporation could
be one of the, you know, core secret corporations, they didn't
want to mention in the documents. Of course, that is
pretty much just speculation. But um, it's it's a big deal.
aerospace defense contractor. And, and so I think that there's
no questioning Eric's intelligence and capability and
obviously, his portfolio, I mean, his portfolio must be very
impressive. And and actually, one thing that I think is quite
important, because you mentioned data, but Lou Elizondo has also
made statements that I think, push the needle forward a little
further on two separate interviews, he's been asked
about the Wilson documents where I mean, he's been asked about it
a few times, but on these specific interviews, his
response was that he could not speak about the documents or
verify, verify them in any way, which is what he always says.
But he finished both of these interview responses by saying
that how put off and Eric Davis are two of the most brilliant,
most intelligent, connected and respected people, he knows you
really, he really talked them up. And he also said, He only
said this once or twice, but definitely once. He said he
believes Eric Davis is incapable of lying. Now, I know that I'm
inviting you to read between the lines, but I don't. I don't
know. I mean, don't you think that it's appropriate for a
counter intelligence officer to make these kind of statements,
you know, you need to read between the lines of these
people sometimes and and he's saying that he believes Eric
Davis is incapable of lying. And he's saying that in response to
a question about the authenticity of the Wilson
documents. So you know, what he seems to be inferring here is
that Eric Davis has never confirmed these were false
documents, because Eric Davis is incapable of lying and and to
say they were fake would be to tell a lie. So he's telling us
they are legitimate. Obviously, I do understand we are reading
between lines. And it's it's not fact we're not. But that's not
what I'm trying to present. I don't think that we're dealing
entirely in facts. I think there's some very interesting
data points around the corner circumference of this whole
leak. But there are also just some very interesting comments
and statements and things like this where, you know, Lou
Elizondo is just really not wanting to talk about it. But
then he really brings up the credibility of these two people
and says they're fantastic. And Eric can't lie. Like, you know,
he's basically incapable of lying. I just feel like they're
making these statements on purpose, you know, like,
John Greenewald: I mean, sure, I don't I don't think we'll find
common ground there with what Luis Elizondo said about the
documents and not commenting again, reinforces the security
clearance, potentially, you know, commenting on behalf of
the US government. I'll throw this out really quickly and
we'll move on but with Luis Elizondo you'll note on on many
of his interviews, he constantly says I'm not speaking on behalf
of the US government. There's a reason why he says stuff like
that and I truly believe it is because you know, he has to be
very careful and and the way he answered that is is right on
board with anybody with a clearance but with Eric Davis,
what I'm you know,
Jay: I go I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but I go back to
that, that misinformation, whatever you want to call it.
Whether that was a malicious lie, I really don't know. But
maybe the guy can't lie, but he could be misinformed or he Can
you No, absolutely post information that isn't true?
Because that part is, is provable? And that's what's kind
of frustrating about how that makes us informed about
something he supposedly wrote, you can't be misinformed about
something that supposedly you wrote. I mean, he either didn't
write it, or he did write it. And so if you didn't write it, I
really don't see why he'll be making the comments he's making
now, which there needs to be a desperate escaped to try and
escape, acknowledging or denying they're real. I mean, like you
said, he's got a bit of an ego. Maybe he's trying to show it,
and maybe he's trying to show off, but I don't know, I just I
just think that another part of his personality is the fact that
he wouldn't want to be tied towards something that would
affect his ability to network his reputation if it was known
that, like internally, I'm not saying publicly if it was known
internally, that this was just nonsense, that it wasn't true. I
just don't see why Eric Davis would make these comments. And
also, I think that we have to fall back on Edgar Mitchell,
because Edgar Mitchell was a part of the briefings, the
initial Pentagon briefings, and there are other people in this
that seem to confirm the fact that there was, you know, a
report generated later by someone like Gary Davis, I mean,
Commander Miller received a phone call from Admiral Wilson,
he even acknowledged he received a phone call. And Edgar Mitchell
said on a couple of different occasions, that they received a
phone call. In fact, you know, I've got the quote here from
when Edgar Mitchell was on CNN with Larry King. And he said, I
eventually went to the Pentagon and asked for a meeting with the
Intelligence Committee of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which I
got with another naval officer who had many similar
experiences. And we told our story, and I just want to break
from the quotes and just mention, for those that aren't
aware that Edgar Mitchell's referring to this Pentagon
meeting, this initial meeting that had been confirmed to have
taken base, even by Admiral Wilson, Admiral Wilson confirmed
this meeting took place. And this was the one with Edgar
Mitchell commander Miller, Dr. Steven Greer, where they
presented, you know, lots of different information, including
a National Reconnaissance Office document, we've listed code
names and programs. So just to continue with the quote, he
said, I went with another naval officer who had many similar
experiences. And we told our story. And this gentleman, a
vice admiral said to us, well, I don't know about that. But I'm
going to find out and called a few weeks later, and said he had
found the source of the black budget funding for this project,
and that he was going to subsequently investigate because
if it was real, he should know about it. As a matter of fact,
you should be in charge, those will come in sometime later. And
a report much later than that. They had found the people
responsible for the cover up and the people in the know, and was
told, I'm sorry, you do not have a need to know here. And so
goodbye. And this is also in the notes where Admiral Wilson
expresses his aggravation towards commander Miller for
actually telling Steven Greer that this phone call took place
when Admiral Wilson called up to basically after this initial
brief briefing took place. Admiral Wilson calls up a few
weeks later tells commander Miller Yeah, this is real, I
found this organization, I think he even mentions mj 12. And some
other things. And and then, and then this was laid down the
grapevine from commander Miller to Edgar Mitchell and to Steven
Greer. And so Edgar Mitchell's telling us about the phone calls
and the latest report being generated before this document
comes out back in the 90s. Back on Stephen, on Larry King. So
it's just like, there's so many different like, kind of
chronological areas to go with this where it's not just we're
not just relying on Eric statements or house statements,
or, you know, we've got quite a few different people and a long
stretch of history where this is being addressed before even
becomes public knowledge. So I just think that there's there's
a lot of converging points, which seemed to push it towards
being legitimate in my opinion.
John Greenewald: So you said the 90s just a quick point of
clarification. So the Edgar Mitchell thing on CNN was July
4 2008. Sorry, no, no, that that's, that's okay. It. I
wasn't trying to call you out on it. But but it leads into the
chronology of my next question, which that was July 4 2008. In
2006, going backwards, Steven Greer had talked about this as
well. And I can read just just the last passage of it.
Essentially, everything's the same. So for time purposes, I'm
not going to read you know, everything here. But in 2006,
Dr. Steven Greer said after Wilson was denied, he says, Now,
you can imagine being an admiral j to the head of intelligence
for the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon and being told
we're not going to tell you well, he was shocked and angry.
Going backwards again in 2001. Steven Greer at a portland
oregon talk in September of 2001. Again, skipping the whole
quote, but but finishing it up and essentially the head of
intelligent Joint Staff said, I'm horrified that this is true.
I've been in plenty of black projects, but when we tried to
get into this one, he was told and I quote Sir, you Do not have
a need to know the head of intelligent joints, the joint
staffs, you don't have a need to know. So there's multiple
instances where, again, Admiral Wilson reaches out, he's denied
the way that Mitchell says it, essentially he's like hung up
on, they say goodbye, you know, they don't do it. The notes has
a different story. The story is he, he was he denied Sure,
arguably, but he flies out, meets in a vault gets all of the
information about the program. So in in in one breath, so to
speak, there's three instances where Greer and Mitchell are
saying he tried but failed, then the notes has a completely
different story, where he flies out goes to see the private
contractor gets told, essentially the confirmation
about alien technology, and so on and so forth. And there's so
many other details. Now with the chronology. The notes were
written in 2002. So from 2002 to 2008, on Larry King, why
wouldn't Mitchell say what I would consider the climax of the
story, which is Yeah, Wilson was denied. But he sat there with
the contractors and the attorneys, and got stone called
confirmation that the that they had extraterrestrial technology.
Why in all of those instance, instances, is the story in the
notes different than all of the rest?
Jay: Well, there isn't that there's actually another quote
that I've got from Edgar Mitchell on this where he and
I've got a link to where this took place. I think it was
actually believe it or not a discovery channel interview it
was on it was found on the on the Wayback Machine. I don't
know if it's actually still publicly available. But I've got
a link. And he says, I did take my story to the Pentagon, not
NASA, but the Pentagon and asked for a meeting with the
Intelligence Committee of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and got it
and told them my story. And ignite, I won't skip it,
actually, because it's important that we say, No, no, read the
whole thing, and told them my story and what I know and
eventually had that confirmed by the admiral that I spoke with
that indeed, what I was saying was true. In other words, there
was a UFO crash, there was an alien spacecraft, this gentleman
tried his damnedest to get in. And like so many of us in the
administration over the last 60 years, since j, JFK, his time,
was unable to he was told Admiral, you don't have a need
to know and therefore go get lost. So it's a similar
statement, but he does mention the fact that there was a UFO
crash, there was an alien spacecraft, this gentleman tried
his damnedest to get in. So it was
John Greenewald: when was that Discovery Channel interview?
Because I haven't seen that quote.
Jay: Let me get it up on the links that I've, I've got with
with me in my emails, hang on a second.
John Greenewald: Yeah, no worries. And then we'll put it
in the show notes as well.
Jay: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But yeah, I just
think i think that some of these statements by Edgar Mitchell, I
really don't think that they should be avoided or kind of
ignored, because we don't seem to be confirming peripheral
evidence about what was described in the notes. Now,
you're right, is none of it to the baits or none of it. And
now, you know, and aberle went to the programs and was denied
access to the programs. And, you know, but he did fly out and
meet these people. Perhaps there's reasons why he decided
that level of information should be remained, you know, he might
have even been told by Eric or how, like, don't be too
specific. Let's not talk about this too intensely. Obviously,
I'm speculating here. But I'm just saying that the sensuality
is for there to be other reasons why he would not be extremely
explicit. But he still makes the point that he went and he spoke
to a vice admiral, this Vice Admiral went off. And I think
what's interesting here is, you know, if we're going to take
Edgar Mitchell's word for this, that does run contrary to
Admiral Wilson statements, because Admiral Wilson says he
didn't do any subsequent investigation after that initial
briefing took place at the Pentagon. And Edgar Mitchell
says he does. He says he does multiple times. I mean,
obviously, again, doesn't say Admiral Thomas R. Wilson, but he
says the Vice Admiral he was told Well, I don't know about
that. I'm going to find out when to find out. I was told he
couldn't get in, told them that he couldn't get in. So So.
John Greenewald: Yeah, you and and we'll add the link that
you're talking to. So you can send that to me after the show.
And I'll update the notes and everything. But you you bring up
a great segue to my next question, which is Admiral
Thomas Wilson. And going back earlier in the show you were
talking about the honor and integrity of Edgar Mitchell and
for that I have no objection, and 100% in agreement with you.
I would also argue the same could be attributed to Admiral
Thomas Wilson. Obviously a very distinguished military career,
highly regarded, you know, no controversy or anything in the
sense that he left, dishonorably or anything like that. He says
this entire thing is fiction. So my question is, we're, we're
arguing Edgar Mitchell being honorable, he has to, you know,
essentially be telling the truth, which again, I'm not
gonna sit and argue that that fact. Why are we calling Admiral
Thomas Wilson a? I'm not putting words in your mouth, but
essentially, he's lying. We're calling him a liar.
Jay: Because he has to, because he simply asked it and because
he said he would. I mean, obviously, I'm basing this off
what's said in the notes, but he says he would do exactly this
and the the two people that said that they would deny this, have
denied it. And as will Miller and as Admiral Wilson, will
Miller deny the letter. And Admiral Wilson has denied
everything, even when it runs contradictory to statements. For
example, we've got Oh, Shannon, so you know, when the leaks
first went public, Shannon was asked if he knew Admiral Wilson,
and he said he does know Admiral Wilson, which runs contrary to
Admiral Wilson's own responses about not remembering Oceana,
and eventually admitting they may have crossed paths, but
these cross paths of many people in his career and he can't
remember them all. You know, nevertheless, so Shannon has
refrained from commenting further, because he does not
wish to embarrass or upset the Admiral. But he's never taken
back his initial comments about knowing Thomas Wilson when the
when the notes first went public. So I think, you know,
that absolutely matters.
John Greenewald: And in fairness, though, he hasn't
denied everything. He he concurs with the 1997 meeting. And his
explanation was that Edgar Mitchell being that esteemed
American, what was he doing? And so so he's never shied away from
that in fairness to him. No, it was, but he shot it. Sorry, I'm
sorry. I'm not meaning to No, no, no, it's all good.
Jay: I think that he Yeah, he hasn't denied that meeting. But
he's tried to distance any sorts of ties to Oh, Shannon, because
Shannon seems to have been the intermediary between Eric Davis
and Admiral Wilson kind of meeting together because he
vouched for his character. But you know, there's actually quite
a quite an interesting thing to mention, because there's no
easily identifiable connection between oak Shannon and Eric
Davis. Remember, in the notes, it was about Shannon that
essentially bridge the communication gap between the
admiral and Eric, he was he was the one that got the ball roll
rolling. So why was Eric communicating evoke Shannon?
Well, in the in the Wilson notes, there was a clear mention
of the a PT, which is the advanced theoretical physics
group, and the initials J. A, are mentioned in the notes as
well, doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to
say that j stands for john alexander, who was one of the
founding fathers of the advanced theoretical physics group. And
interestingly enough, in john Alexander's book, UFOs,
mysteries, conspiracies and realities. He provides a list of
multiple people who participated and two of the names on that
list that Eric W Davis and oak Shannon, and so these guys were
all moving in the same circles all interested in the UFO issue.
So it's not surprising that oak Shannon mentioned, was mentioned
as an intermediary because he was connected with very Davis
via the advanced theoretical physics group. So he would have
had a good reason to tell Admiral Wilson, that Eric was a
team player and that he would keep his mouth shut and obey
protocol. And, and this is what he stated in the notes that Oh,
Shannon vouched for Eric Davis to Admiral Wilson. So it's
interesting that Admiral Wilson has made relatively contrary
statements to even knowing oak shattered and when oak Shannon
seems to be without directly saying it, which seems to be a
trend in this entire thing is people not directly saying
anything. But oh, Shannon seems to basically be saying no, he
does know Admiral Wilson. So they're, you know, there's that
that's I think that's an interesting connection, because
Admiral Wilson, Eric Davis, Oak Shannon, where did that
connection come from? It came from the advanced theoretical
physics group, it came from an association with this kind of
core group of people.
John Greenewald: One of the other denials, which you brought
up was wil Miller, who was there in the 1997. The 1997 meeting
and the two page letter that was within these notes that was
paper clipped in according to the notes. I only laughed at
that note that was, you know, paper clipped in. But anyway, so
well, Miller's letter is in there, essentially saying for
close to $200 an hour he could help how put off and Eric Davis,
essentially unlock the secrets of the universe for $200 an
hour. Now, when he's asked from what I understand, well, Miller
says he remembers part of the letter, but felt that other
parts were fabricated. Again, distinguished military officer,
you know, you might have the same answer, but we're saying
that he's lying. Is that because he has to?
Jay: Well, I mean, I think I think again, it is worth
highlighting that he was explicit that if this was to
come out, he doesn't want any association with his name. He
doesn't want any association with this. He'll deny it. You
know, because the
John Greenewald: notes because then you're getting that from
the note Just a couple of hours. Yeah,
Jay: I'm getting that for notes. But then we also again, I'm
taking into account other things like the fact that he got a
phone call from the admiral and Edgar Mitchell and the other
things I've mentioned, but you know, in terms of the letter,
because he says it was like a cut and paste job or something
like that, and I'm pretty sure Dr. Steven Greer did say that it
was very much like, you know, wills, writing style. But an
interesting little tidbit in regards to the will Miller
letter is the mention of Bob Beckwith and his advanced
physics theories, because Bob Beckwith is a real person, he
does have various theories that relate back to what was said
about him, and will mill his letter. He has a small digital
footprint, my colleague who briefed Leslie Kane and Ralph
Blumenthal was able to find trace information about this
individual. And, you know, again, the same individual found
that the company won mark, Inc. and Joe zakuro, which are two
mentions in the at the end of this letter. Were at one time
listed on LinkedIn, I don't know I haven't To be fair, I haven't
double checked if they're still on LinkedIn. So if it's not on
there, now, might as well disregard that as a nothing
comment. But if it's still there, it's still there. And
that was apparently and this you know, this individual is
trustworthy in their research, because they were going back and
forth with Leslie and Ralph, filling them in on different
areas of this for a while when, when we took down this breakdown
video that I mentioned at the beginning of the of the talk. So
there are there are, there are areas of this letter that
actually, you know, make sense. And it's not like it's just been
jumbled together from you know, random things and copied and
pasted. So, but when it comes to Mila denying it, yeah, I will
admit, I do fall back on the document, because I still think
the documents real and he says he had denied it. So the two
people that said they would deny it, have denied it. They
followed suit,
John Greenewald: don't you think it's I'm just this is kind of a
humorous question. But really quick, don't you think it's
weird that the guy who's saying, hey, hire me for $180 an hour,
and I'll find you the Extra Terrestrial connection ends his
letter by saying, hey, do you know how to contact this guy
from this corporation? Like, like, he's gonna unlock the
secrets.
Jay: But I don't think he was really obscure company that was
dealing in like a type of pepper spray or something like that.
So, you know, yeah, you're right. It's, it's, it's weird,
but maybe, maybe he knew that, you know, these guys would
probably move in the same circles, because we know we're
dealing. I mean, we're probably dealing with a time when it
wasn't as informative in terms of the Internet, and then being
able to utilize that to add authority for these people. So I
don't know. I mean, you're right. It's it.
John Greenewald: Just, it struck me It's funny.
Jay: It's a fair point, though. It's a fair point because he's
saying he's got all this access, but it's a different thing. It's
a different you know, he's he's saying that through his networks
through the people he's already spoken to he's he's able to
provide them with information about I think he said, like a
flag rank officer who, you know, was connected to this issue. I
can't remember for verbatim what he was saying. But um, but yeah,
like posing that question. I always thought it was
interesting that that end question and I was wanting to
know why he wanted to find out who they were or or contact
them. But yeah, yeah.
John Greenewald: Yeah, it was a weird, weird, again, humorous
thing I just wanted to ask credibility of Steven Greer, I
don't expect you to, you know, slander anybody, nor am I. But
again, these are just some of the key players involved in all
of this. And why I bring up credibility with Steven Greer
specifically to this is many, many, many moons ago, because
I've mentioned I'm old on this program before I was writing for
UFO magazine with when it was headed by Bill Bill Burns. And
Bill had given me a call and I was writing on and off of them
and he says, Hey, can you write an article on the Disclosure
Project? And as I dug in, realized that there was a rift
between Edgar Mitchell and Dr. Steven Greer that Steven Greer
was essentially overstepping and, and I forget the word that
Dr. Mitchell use, but essentially over extending the
claims and he was very upset at being named as a witness. How
credible is Dr. Steven Greer in this story? I mean it you know,
because you again you have that direct conflict between Edgar
Mitchell and Dr. Steven Greer at least many many years ago
Jay: so that's that's why I didn't include that quote,
because I was always frustrated and I you know, I've met one of
the one of the first things that actually got me into the UFO
subject was my best friend recommending on acknowledged and
you know, I watched that acknowledge and I was like, wow,
I was fascinated. That was one of the first things that got me
interested. So you know, hats off to him for that documentary,
but I never included I've never included Edgar Mitchell
statement there because the full interview, he says something
along the lines of well if we are to believe the individuals
within government who have, you know, hinted at this Yes, there
are extraterrestrials yesterday at craft and that was cut to
just say, yes, there are extraterrestrials. Yes. And as
if he's confirming it as is a absolute fact. And I was always
frustrated because I knew because I don't even know why he
did it because you have access to the full interview, you can
quite clearly see that it was got emphasis towards it being
Edgar Mitchell's acknowledgement rather than him saying, Well, if
we believe these people. So yeah, I know we all know about
Dr. Steven Greer, we don't like you know, really need to go over
loads and loads of things about his credibility, let's, let's be
honest, he has absolutely paved the way for years he was top
dog. And I have to admit, he has fallen somewhat from grace for
you know, a lot of people in recent years. And some of those
reasons are understandable. So some people seem to think that
because I'm into the consciousness side, and I've had
experiences that I just kind of blindly follow Greer or
something and I don't I try and objectively look at everyone and
decide what I want. And I pick and choose. And Steven Greer
has, as demonstrated a absolute passion, a very keen
intelligence, a an ability to network a historical involvement
in this issue and a big old ego. And that big old ego is what
gets them in trouble. And and so you know, you're right, you're
right to bring up his his credibility issues. But I think
again, it doesn't just fall on Greer, this, this whole
situation doesn't fall on the credibility of Greer doesn't
even just fall on the credibility of Eric Davis.
There's so many different moving parts in this that I've
mentioned all already in terms of statements and interesting
scenarios and situations that I think you don't need to
necessarily rely on one person, especially because they
delivered information that we know to be true. So we've got
the National Reconnaissance Office document, that's a real
document, Admiral Wilson, you know, was shown that document in
a briefing at the Pentagon. That's what, you know, Steven
Greer has claimed, but that's also what's been acknowledged by
Admiral Wilson. And it was also been acknowledged by Edgar
Mitchell that this briefing took place. So, you know, he's
telling the truth about going into this briefing and
presenting this information. This is the information I
presented, this NRO document was a particular interest. So in
this particular scenario, I would say that, yeah, I do trust
Steven Greer to be being sincere in this because I'm not just
relying on Steven Greer, to know what the situation might have
been about I again, and I know, I'm sounding like a broken
record, but I really do fall a lot back onto Edgar Mitchell.
And I just think that this individual would not have got
himself into this situation where he was confidently talking
about a scenario that seems very reminiscent of the admiral
Wilson scenario, if he did not believe it to be true. So yeah,
you're right to bring up Steven Greer, but I don't think that
his credibility issues that people know about, really
reflect too much on this particular scenario. Other than
the the mention of of that interview, where he spliced it
cleverly to make it seem like Edgar Mitchell was confirming
something when he wasn't, you know, that was, that was sneaky.
But yeah, in terms of his involvement in this particular
scenario, I mean, you've you've seen the citizens disclosure
conference where he's there talking about the document, and
he's got it and he's holding it. I believe what he's saying. And
when he says that you spoke with general Patrick Hughes, I think,
and he brought the ET doll off the shelf and said, this is all
I've been given for my, you know, my question is up the
chain of command. I do believe that, that that took place, you
know, and I don't think that particular area gives me too
much doubt. But, um, I understand why you asked that
question, for sure.
John Greenewald: Are you okay with time? I know, we had a
little bit of technical hiccups there.
Jay: You're right. It's Yeah, it's it's 1130. But I'm happy to
go for however long you want to go me? I'm okay. You coffees and
a bit of nicotine. So I'm good.
John Greenewald: Good. Good. Okay. Well, I won't keep you,
you know, keep you all night, but but I want to definitely get
to a couple other things. Yeah. And one thing that I don't feel
that we've dealt with and I wanted to ask you about is truly
the origin of these notes. The meeting between Thomas Wilson
going to Las Vegas meeting with Dr. Eric Davis. Do you have in a
nutshell why Davis? It's just clearing my throat there. Sorry.
No problem.
Jay: Well, again, I think I'd probably go back on what I what
I said about Oh, Shannon and the fact that they were connected
through the advanced theoretical physics group. So these guys
moved in the same circles. Eric Davis is a brilliant theoretical
physicists with an extremely strong interest in UFOs and a
background in research and yet at a high level. And so I think
that it would make sense if he was moving in the same circles
as oak Shannon. For him to be you know, it could have very
easily in my opinion been Harold put off instead that could have
gone and done this, but it just happened to be Eric Davis out of
the two. Perhaps Eric Davis spoke to hell about it because
he was you know, how was his boss at the time and so Yeah, I
mean, I think that I think that it was probably just a case of
he was the most logical person maybe he asked, oh, Shannon, I
mean, the thing is, we have to then delve into speculation of
like, how did the conversation go, but I think that the the
connection that is prevalent or present sorry, the connection
that's present between oak Shannon, Eric Davis, and you
know, john alexander helped us off advanced theoretical physics
group. This seems like a pretty important reason for it to be
Eric Davis. And if you know, if you remember in the, in the in
the notes, Admiral Wilson, supposedly he said, You know, I
was very impressed with your, your Airforce slides, your
Lockheed slides, like all these kinds of things in your
portfolio. I mean, he's got a fantastic portfolio. That's why
he's an Aerospace Corporation now doing stuff that he can't
talk about. So I think that he's a pretty strong candidate. I
mean, I'm sure there's other unknown scientists and
physicists in the do the infrastructure that have a
capability, but Eric Davis, at least in the public sphere seems
to be one of the most prevalent so yeah, it doesn't surprise me
that he would want to try and get hold of Admiral Wilson. And
it doesn't surprise me that Oh, Shannon could have acted as the
kind of intermediary between that happening.
John Greenewald: So. Okay, so so connected to that group, no
surprise. So let's talk about the security behind what Admiral
Wilson was conveying if this all took place. And I want to make
sure we're on the same page. And if you disagree with me, please,
this is why I'm asking. Would you agree that the existence the
the the knowledge of the existence of a highly classified
program, such as what is described in the notes, that
that knowledge in and of itself would be classified? Would you
agree with that?
Jay: Yeah. And I know, what you're going to say is like, why
in the hell would Admiral Wilson even acknowledge this to Eric
Davis? If it was that? Well,
John Greenewald: that Okay, so then that's again, leading into
this honorable thing. So he flies out to Las Vegas, and now
he's divulging classified information and a car in Las
Vegas to Dr. Eric Davis of all people. My question is, he
clearly doesn't have a need to know because according to the
story, the admiral didn't have a need to know. So he's out there
putting highly classified information at his position out
there into the ether, and tells Dr. Eric Davis, why would he do
that?
Jay: I think he was very disturbed. And again, this is a
we have to just preface this by saying, I'm speculating. I
don't, I understand. But I think I'm trying to kind of see a
pattern out of the chaos and see where I feel it fits. And I
think that he would have told him because taking away the size
of oak Shannon, getting in contact and saying, hey, you
need to talk to this guy called Eric, why would Admiral Wilson
give this information? Eric? I think he was really disturbed by
what he what he encountered, and he was battling with that. And I
think that I think that he took a real chance with this and it
backfired. I mean, that's why, in my opinion, he is saying
absolutely not this situation didn't occur. No, I refuse. Why
John Greenewald: did it backfire?
Jay: No. Why did it backfire? Because it became public, it
became public, you know, I think that he honestly, was assured by
old Shannon, that this guy was a complete straight shooter, that
you would have no issues with him, and that he's very
interested in talking about the UFO issue. I don't know how
they, you know, if he was to get in contact with this guy, oh,
Shannon must have really, you know, built up Eric Davis. And I
think that potentially, we could just draw this down to a weak,
you know, subjective, really, because I think it was a
brilliant thing that he did if he did it, but a moment of
weakness in his patriotism allegiance. And, and, and he
thought, you know, what, if I do this in a very, very clandestine
manner, we do this very carefully. I talk about it in a
in an area where I'm comfortable. I will tell you
certain details, and I don't want this to go anywhere near
the public sector. You know, he wasn't talking to a greasy
journalist, he was talking to, you know, a very, very
professional theoretical physicist who had an interest in
this issue. I can see you smiling when I said, a very
professional
John Greenewald: hoping I was biting my tongue
Jay: that much. I see it but no, you know, I'm just saying I
think that, in my opinion, it could be that it's a it's a
situation that Admiral Wilson, really, really regrets he ever
did. He really wishes he had never, ever done this. And so he
denies it. And, you know, but potentially, maybe there were
some very strong words said to him, maybe he wasn't taken to a
black site and had his nails ripped out by the, you know,
Guantanamo Bay people. But perhaps he was taken to the side
and said, You have crossed the line with this. I don't know.
Again, it falls into specialists.
John Greenewald: And I and I get it this but I mean, this You
follow? You have to speculate points. Yeah, but but I think
that where I'm missing it and where I kind of wanted your
feedback is if he Didn't want this public, he was so angry.
He's a J. Two, he's being denied access. There's alien technology
out there, we have it, and he can't access it. And it's all
hidden, you know, in the private sector? What then is the motive
if he doesn't want it to go public? Why tell Eric Davis,
What is he trying to achieve? What's David's gonna do?
Jay: I think that maybe he was told by someone like, oh,
Shannon, look, there's a guy from this group, very well
funded, you know, billionaire funding this group, and you're
talking about lead magnets. Yeah. So you know, he's got this
background. And these are very, you know, very intelligent and
highly sought after people within the kind of scientific
infrastructure of God and things like that, you know, these are
very interesting, folks. And they are trying to get to the
bottom of this. And I think that maybe Admiral Wilson saw this as
an opportunity to pass along, the little bit of attempt that
he had tried in the hopes that maybe these fellows could dig
down even deeper, and uncover it. And he, you know, he's not
going to go public with this information, because that would
just be far too devastating for his own career and his own
reputation. But if he could maybe pass the bottle on the
message in the bottle to the next rose and say, hey, look,
you see what you can do with this. Don't ever mention my name
or connection to me, I'll deny anything that I've ever said to
you, this conversation never happened, but use what I'm
giving you now and see what you can do. Because I tried, and
they get, you know, they wouldn't even let me, you know,
into the program or, you know, so i think i think that perhaps
we're dealing with a situation where this guy was like, we're
we're Admiral Admiral Wilson was like, I'm, I'm going to try and
see if I can push this forward for other people. And not
necessarily take it publicly because that would just be too
much of an explosion. And he was too patriotic to bring down a
system to like, you know, literally say there are a cut,
there's a cover up and go on CNN. He didn't want to do that.
So I think the best option was a fortuitous, perhaps Oh, Shannon
was the first person to message him I'd imagine it was I don't I
can't imagine Admiral Wilson was reaching out to see if he could
speak to someone. I'm sure that Oh, Shannon made the
introductions. And, you know, maybe he just molded over a
couple of nights and said, Yeah, all right. I'm gonna talk to him
about this, see what they can do.
John Greenewald: So obviously, he intended those something to
be something to happen billionaire funded private, at
this point, non government contractor which again, I but
for sake of time, I won't argue that that point. But I mean,
it's hard to believe that he would divulge to a, a
organization like this now bass where the government contract
and security clearance, okay, like I get on board with that.
But let's just operate that that's true. And that the career
concern that his career would be would be, you know, hurt by all
of this. Okay, I get on board with that. His career's done in
the sense that he has, he has now done a lot, you know, I
mean, he has lived his career life, if he knows something that
will change this planet. And deep down years ago, he was
willing to give Dr. Eric Davis in this car, that that
information that classified information, I can understand
why you don't want it out then. But now what's he got to lose?
He's clearly got no consideration for a security
oath. He's telling classified information to people that don't
have a need to know, even though friends are vouching where I
would again, just kind of respectfully disagree, that
there's such a leap there that these guys would be told this
information that, that that I believe somebody of Admiral
Wilson's position, if it was true to him being denied, he
would never take it beyond or if he did, you would have like an
Edward Snowden type situation where he would just go to the
press and go, you know what, let's change the world and and
do this. So back to my question, because, again, that's
speculation on my part. Why? Why doesn't he just come clean at
this point and just say, you know, what, yeah, it happened.
Come get me.
Jay: Again, I mean, it's, you know, it's a good, it's a good
question. And I do just kind of fall back on my own feelings.
And, you know, this is, again, we're, we're just wading into
the gray area of expressing our different feelings on this
issue, rather than any sort of kind of trail of evidence, but I
just, I think that he sees this as a big mistake. You know, I
think that he really regrets ever speaking to them. And for
whatever reason, I mean, yeah, I would have to just fall back,
personally on him making a decision that he later regretted
because it suddenly came out in the public and why would he not
talk about it now? You're right. Why wouldn't he talk about it
now? Like, what maybe one day he will he is still alive? You
know, the day before this is over. Admiral Wilson will say,
you know, I was I was not telling the truth. This is a
real situation. I don't know, maybe someone came to his house
put a gun to his family's head and said, if you ever say
anything about this situation, again, they're all going to die.
I mean, obviously, we don't know, I just, I'm just saying
that there could be a whole number of reasons after the fact
that he's decided to absolutely avoid this at all costs. And
then yeah, why would he reach out to this organization and
essentially be very laissez faire with his national security
restrictions and just tell these people. I do think that it was
just perhaps the end of the line for him when he was contacted by
OIC and made clear that people were trying to find out and that
they might be able to do something that they've got the
backing that they've got the resources, the knowledge, the
clearances, the collections. I think maybe he just had a moment
where his his allegiance to the national security bureaucracy,
architecture just kind of collapsed. And he had this
moment of weakness, why was he not flowing away to an a prison
forever? Who knows? Maybe he really was threatened in a
different way. And that's why he won't open his mouth. But again,
this seems to be the theme of this particular part of the
conversation. Yeah. It just speculate
John Greenewald: speculation now, and I picked up on
something you said, and I want to go back to the evidence,
because I want to focus on what what you want to bring out. I
don't want to get you in the weeds on speculating. But I do
want to ask one follow up on what you just said, about knids,
where they had the clearances and the access now back then,
and in 2001 2000, to 2002, excuse me, you know, with knids,
granted billionaire, you know, put pumping money into this, and
quite a few very smart scientists and so on. But what
government slash clearances, are you referring to where they
would have the access to do something?
Jay: Well, didn't? Didn't Eric Davis already have a background
with the Air Force? He had his Air Force portfolio where he'd
done like ball lightning studies and other other sorts of studies
was that yeah,
John Greenewald: I mean, I'm sure there was a clearance level
at some point for that. But we're not talking because I got
those under under FOIA. And I'll link those in the show notes
too. So people can see he did have these contracts with the
Air Force Research Lab. You know, we're able to do that. But
not a, you know, top secret classified. Yeah.
Jay: And so, obviously, you know, these guys weren't in some
sort of, you know, oversight position in special access
programs or anything like that. But at the
John Greenewald: end, that's, and that's not to step on yet.
That's what I mean by the question is, if Wilson truly
wanted somebody to do something about it, it goes back to that
question of, Okay, why the knids guys, because, again, very
brilliant, very smart, scientific minded individuals. I
have nothing bad to say I'm trying to find the right way to
work, though. But but very smart in their own right. But why
wouldn't you go to a contact at like a Lockheed or something
that are into those black budget programs that have those high
level clearances that are getting into? Well, that arena?
I mean, I can't find the connection between the people in
knids and knids. itself and Bigelow, at that time,
connecting it to the motive for Wilson to say, you know what,
I'm going to chance that Shannon is being right, and Davis is
gonna keep his mouth shut. I just don't see why he would
gamble. And that's what I'm missing.
Jay: Yeah, no, totally. I think right. So Edgar Mitchell, when
Edgar Mitchell was part of the briefing in the initial Pentagon
briefing, he was already in its I'm pretty sure he was already a
member of the National Institute,
John Greenewald: advisory board, I believe,
Jay: as we bought. So the people so a member of this needs
advisory board was the was part of the briefing, you know, group
that first activated his interest in his desire to go off
and find these programs. And then he was apparently, you
know, subsequently denied access. So I think that had
already probably been demonstrated that knids was a
capable group because they were the ones that basically
alongside Dr. Steven Greer, but you know, all working as a team.
We're the first ones to show him potentially evidence of this
type of thing that set him off on this journey. So I also fall
back on the idea that I don't think he was particularly
reaching out to anyone after he made his you know, phone calls
to command the Miller and through it and then Edgar
Mitchell down the grapevine down the grapevine heard those, those
calls. I think that was probably the extent of it for him at that
time. You know, according to the nodes, he was threatened to be
chewed out, you know, dishonorable retirement,
basically. And so I think that they approached him they again,
Oak Shannon fru, Eric Davis, advanced theoretical physics
group, this little network. Oh, Shannon, for whatever reason,
maybe Eric mentioned it to him, decided to reach out to Admiral
Wilson and I guess provided a compelling enough reason for
Admiral Wilson to go well, I was chewed out for This, but I'm
going to, I'm going to do it I'm going to talk to you about it.
So I, you know, I don't think that Admiral Wilson was
particularly on the on the warpath at that time to try and
prove a point, I think that he had already faced that music
through his investigations and through being threatened by the
senior review group. And and then was basically prodded again
by oak Shannon. And for whatever reason, he decided to speak up
about it.
John Greenewald: I think that compelling reason which you had
said, and again, that's, that's what I'm missing. And it sounds
like maybe nobody knows that. Yeah, compelling reason fair to
say, ugly, because you need to, you'd need
Jay: to say something pretty bloody compelling to get someone
like this guy to open up, I completely agree with you, that
it's a crazy anomaly for someone like him to actually divulge
this kind of information. But I think that in alignment with
other parts of this conversation, again, that we've
mentioned, like Edgar Mitchell, statements about this, indeed
happening in a report being generated. And, you know, I
think that there's other areas of this, which just seem to
confirm or lean very, very heavily towards this being a
real scenario. So, yes, it's an anomaly. And I guess the
question is, why did this anomaly occur? If it occurred?
We don't have the answer for that. We don't we none of us
know. So, you know, that's, I think that is an issue of the
admiral Wilson leaks is there, there are areas of this where we
absolutely are having to rely on speculation. But there are also
areas of this where I think you are connecting dots, and there's
a lot of dots, there are quite a few flowing around. When you
start stringing them together, something really does seem to be
taking shape. And, you know, I mean, for example, I don't want
to speak for you on your theory, but with the TV script, or the
film script or anything like that. I mean, okay, I'll admit
that the carpark of eg and G special programs is a mysterious
sounding plays, and when, you know, it makes a brilliant
introductory scene in any good spy or intelligence based
thriller. But this is not enough to push for the case for this
being fictional, for example, not when you juxtapose this with
the, the compounding of all these other data points. And if
this was a film, or or, or TV treatment or storyboard, you
know, you'd have you'd have terminologies such as interior
or exterior, closer, mid range, long shot, you'd have some level
of like, you know, camera lighting, set directions, and
perhaps some description of the, of the weather or the ambience,
you know, you'd have notes from the script writers so that you
have a visual concept of how one thing can be shot. So that's
always appeared a little bit weak to me, because, you know,
not a single term using this transcript relates to production
terminologies at all. So, you know, obviously, the script,
sorry, just just real quick, no, no, no,
John Greenewald: that that's fine. I wanted to bring this up,
because I want you to throw whatever you want at me. But I
do want before we segue to that, again, going back about quite a
few minutes now, about your comment about evidence. And I
don't want to just keep you in the realm of speculation. So
before we get into the movie script, I want to go back to
that evidence part. Where what what am I missing? What do you
want to bring up? that supports the 2002? meeting? Outside of eg
and g? Like, what what evidence do you want to make sure that we
have in here that I've missed?
Jay: Well, I think I think I've gone for quite a few of the of
the reasons that I've given I mean, especially in relation to
comments. So you know, like the the admission, that seems to be
a pretty direct admission, in my opinion from hell puts off
about, about Eric Davis meeting the admiral and and interviewing
him about Edgar Mitchell, commercial confirming numerous
occasions that there was indeed this continuation from just this
particular one briefing of Shannon, you know, making it
quite clear that he does know Abra Wilson, this is kind of
what I'm saying is that, yes, there is no definitive fact,
that is the the most hardcore thing to focus on. It really
does seem to me that when you click a lot of these different
comments over time, you know, events that have transpired, it
really just seems to conglomerate into something that
has a lot of potential legitimacy behind it. And I just
the way that Admiral Wilson's behave, the way that commander
Miller's behave is exactly how they should behave if this is
real. And, you know, again, the statement from Eric Davis about
national security restrictions and ongoing programs and his own
personality traits that seemed to run contradictory to how he
would handle this if it was fictional, especially if it was
fictional. Eric Davis wouldn't wouldn't sit back and let this
happen. So you know, it's a lot of the things that I've already
mentioned I mean, George George Knapp as well is probably worth
mentioning just because he's a journalistic powerhouse in UFO
ology. Very well respected and connected. And, you know, he
he's very good friends with the folks over at nerds, especially
Robert Bigelow. So I think it's relevant to mention the fact
that George Knapp is also on record that the notes are real,
and that the meeting happened. And no. And also, you know,
you're aware of the recent work done by the researcher named
Britt, you know, she has done some very interesting digging
and uncovered, you know, government documentation that
strengthens the existence of gaps in oversight as it relates
to special access programs, subcategories. And so, you know,
I just think that it's more about the coalescing of
different data points and starting to string them
together. And I, I really do see a picture taking place here. And
yes, there are gaps. And yes, there are anomalies in this in
this issue. But I really don't think that the the, the
anomalies outweigh the signifiers of something very
strange going on here, you know, whether or not all of it is
honest and true, maybe not. But I am pretty, pretty certain that
the documents are real, that Eric Davis met with the admiral,
and, you know, there are off record comments, which is the
most frustrating thing that I've ever, you know, I before I came
into this subject, I was never dealing with people talking
about things off record. And on record, I've had to learn very
quickly to be able to understand how to talk about things online
and on a public forum, as I'm sure you have experience in the
same of having to do a little dance sometimes when students
come to you in the background. So you know, there are off
record comments that seem to very much strengthen the
legitimacy. So, you know, I understand that that comes from
the privilege of being in connection with certain people
and getting to hear things that most people don't get to hear.
So for anyone listening, it's just like, well, that's great,
you know, you get to hear something special and no one
else does. Well, you know, you know, boohoo for you like it
really does suck i understand that but those things the public
stuff, I just think that there's something here like I said at
the right at the beginning of this I'm not trying to sell the
documents as the entire situation from start to finish
is absolutely on point and everything in it is real. But it
really does seem to me like this is something that should be kept
within the you ufology circle, thrown around, examined over
time maybe trying to develop upon it. Like, you know, the the
mention of Brett is an important thing, because before Brett
turned up and kind of found a few extra little tidbits that
seemed to point towards the possibility of, you know, like
an obfuscation of oversights in these programs. This whole synth
situation was static for a minute. So it's kind of just
edged a little bit further forward, in my opinion, with the
fact that we've got documentation that confirms
that, hey, you know, oversight, oversight issues can exist,
especially in special access programs where things get very
murky. So, you know, I think that we've time this genuinely
might be developed upon to a very, very clear point. And, and
I think that, you know, the fact that people like Leslie Kane and
Ralph Blumenthal were, you know, willing to talk about this on
and off record. I just think that there's a lot of people
that find this to be very interesting and worthy of, you
know, scrutiny. So,
John Greenewald: so I'm with Ralph and Leslie. And before we
move to the, the, you know, the wild and crazy movie script, if
they're willing to look at it, and despite gaps and so on, I
mean, I've seen UFO stories that have a heck of a lot of gaps get
reported. Yeah. Why haven't we seen this in the New York Times?
Why haven't we seen a mainstream media outlet? Look at this, and
come up with even just a question mark, the shout out
that I want to give Billy Cox, who has done quite a bit over
the years, I'm not sure if you like his angle or not. But
regardless, my shout out is he digs and he's trying to get
these on the record comments. And from what I understood with
the online rumor mill, was that the New York Times was doing
this crash retrieval Wilson Davis story notes, expos a, and
we were gonna like that was it? This is gonna be, you know, a
disclosure, because New York Times is going to put their
masthead on it. And we all know that that just fell flat. Yeah.
So what is your opinion on that? I mean, if the evidence is
strong, why don't may and may not even be the New York Times,
but why not someone some outlet, take the gamble and go, you know
what, there is enough to at least say maybe.
Jay: So this is going back to what I was saying before about
how I've had to have a steep learning curve in knowing what I
can and can't say on record. But I know, I know that this was
something that they wanted to include in the New York Times,
and it wasn't necessarily it was it wasn't necessarily their own
actions that caused that to potentially not be In the New
York Times, so I mean, there's, there's a bit more of a
backstory to that. Yeah, I yeah, I've got to be a bit cautious
with that.
John Greenewald: I understand and and they probably interest
and that's fine. where I'm going with this as if this is solid
and the New York Times powers that be want to say yeah, you
can't no way which I would doubt because they've taken Gamble's
they did the a tip story, kudos to them which coincided with the
political story but they broke that they're breaking those
types of boundaries.
Jay: I think I think one of the issues sorry to cut you off but
no, no, it's okay. I think one of the issues and this is
something that I'm sure you will understand is that they weren't
able to get people to go on record about confirming the
legitimacy of these documents. So I think that they tried, and
this is just kind of informed speculation on my side, but I
think that they tried their best to model this within any sort of
potential articles. As, as an addition to other conversations
they were may be having, I mean, you got to remember that Eric
Davis was quoted by the New York Times to say that there have
been offworld retrievals, and, you know, offworld, vehicle
retrievals, he was quite brazen about that in the New York
Times. And, and I want to say he said, not from this earth or not
of this earth, there was the quote, and this is very close to
what was said in the Wilson documents when it said, you
know, that these crafts were offworld, not made by human
hands
John Greenewald: made by human not made by man, not by human
hands. That's exactly
Jay: what this for. And so and so, you know, you've got a quite
similar wording structure with the quotes that they were given
by Eric Davis, but I think that it probably did come down to,
unfortunately, the New York Times looking at it as a
situation that didn't have enough behind it. So that's fair
enough to acknowledge that I do acknowledge that simply because
they have a kind of strict prerequisite for getting
something into the New York Times, which involves, I think
they said, when they were on their interview with me that you
usually need at least two corroborating sources that are
willing to go out and put their name on the line for something
like this to take place. And so they didn't reach that with with
the with the admiral Wilson scenario. And so I think that if
there was any sort of plan to include that, it was, it was
probably taken out because of the fact that they can't
directly unequivocally confirm it to be accurate, which is a
shame, because I think that you should still be able to put out
an opinion piece, I still think that this should this could very
easily. And you know, in fact, I spoke with Stephen Greenstreet,
not that long ago, and, and when we were having a back and forth,
he was like, you know, I'm probably going to try and pitch
this up to the New York Post, again, through this way of
looking at it that you've just explained, because I said, you
know, it doesn't have to be an opinion, it doesn't have to be
like absolute fact, it can still be an opinion piece, it could
still be written in a way that allows for people to finish that
and go, Oh, maybe that could be true. Or maybe it's not, um, get
people thinking about it, you don't have to have a really
biased perspective of like, you know, there's, there's no way
this can be denied, because that's not true. There are ways
in which this can be questioned. But I think there's enough there
for people to be interested and enough there for people to be,
you know, intrigued as to whether or not this could
happen. And it could, it could spark the wheel of momentum. And
maybe you'd get more people from the intelligence infrastructure
coming out and putting something towards this. So I think that
it, it represents a capability to be in the mainstream media, I
just think that they were dealing in fact, I know, they
were dealing with some very strenuous editorial processes
going through the New York Times superstructure. Sure. You know,
so I think that there's a lot of red tape involved in that side.
John Greenewald: And like I said, I think that even if it
wasn't the New York Times, you know, Leslie Kane is a
freelancer. And I believe Ralph, although work and I could be
wrong, but worked for them at one point is now considered a
freelancer and so on. So as a freelancer, they can just say,
Alright, you guys want to do your stupid red tape thing? sia,
and you know, somewhere else if it was strong enough, but maybe
we'll see that before I move on. Evidence wise, just to close
that. I want to make sure that I am not cutting you off or
anything like that. Is there anything else that you want to
make sure that you get in before we move on?
Jay: I'm happy to go where you want to take this now. You know,
we've almost been going for two hours. Now. This is crazy. I
think
John Greenewald: I you know, I know we had a little bit of the
technical hiccup but about an hour hour 45 or so more. I'm
happy to keep going. I'm here Okay, for another 15 minutes or
so. Yeah, yeah. Perfect. Awesome. So then so now we'll go
to the movie script which you had brought up and just to kind
of preface it for the audience who isn't aware I've got a video
link it into the show notes, where I post a theory and I want
to stress the word theory. I was not saying that I believed
wholeheartedly. These were the notes. It was a possible
explanation. Also in the title of the thing of the video, I
think that that got misconstrued not by Jay or placing the
accusation. But in the twitterverse, you know that john
thinks it's a movie script. My intention was to show a, in my
opinion, very plausible, alternate explanation. And what
I found fascinating was number one, the reaction to it, right?
I mean, like, there was some some very choice words from
people. But number two, it was, well, I'm sorry to say that
again.
Jay: I said probably for me as well. I'm sorry for anyone
previous previous Twitter comments, I threw your way,
john.
John Greenewald: No, I and I'm not worried about it. Like you
use Twitter, you have to have a thick skin and like we've water
under the bridge note no problem. But that said, the
intent was to show again, that positive alternative, a story
based on real characters with real names, and real events
using as a launching point to create a narrative. And you
noted it, that it doesn't look like a script, there's no
elements in this and that, but if you watch the video, what I
do is explain that yes, it's a very amateurish attempt, which
in television, I've produced quite a bit for networks over
here, History Channel discovery. And in those processes, when
you're, I worked my way up to a supervising producer. So when
you're in that position, a lot of times you'll have people that
will come to you and say, Hey, do you mind looking at this and
taking a look at it, see where I go wrong? Those that one to move
up and right? And they take stabs at scripts, those are what
I liken this to somebody who wants to do it, or maybe wants
to take a stab at it, but hasn't necessarily gone through, you
know, the formal training now, where I look at this. And again,
close the pose, the theory is that you have dialogue, you have
scene settings, which are script elements. I know you can say
that, or admit to that part. But also the interjections which I
thought were silly, you know, like Thomas Wilson going let me
finish with an exclamation point, those types of quirky
things now as Dr. Davis, you know, quirky. And that's how he
makes notes. Sure, I could be open to that. Or this was just a
dialogue. But again, the intent was to show what could be a
plausible explanation. The people that came after me about
it just said it was stupid. But they never really countered with
anything other than, well, that can't be true. And it's like,
you don't want to, not you, but the those that are advocating
that these notes are real, they don't want to have the burden of
proof, meaning, there's a lot of conjecture, which you've
admitted, you have to speculate a little bit, you got to fill in
the gaps, and so on. But with an alternate theory, dismiss it
outright. No way. That's not true. I know for a fact, no way.
And they, they, they go back to it being real. And again, I'm
not, I'm not accusing you of that, unless you want to say
that that's how you feel, which is fine. But but that's what I
gathered from that was, that can't be true, because I don't
want to believe it, ergo, it's not true. But this is true. But
we have to speculate fill in the gaps and maybe twist some words
here and there. And so that is the conclusion that they have
come to. And so that's really kind of the foundation that I
wanted to make sure everybody who hasn't seen those videos
know that that's where I was coming from. So I'll pass it to
you.
Jay: So I mean, yes, speculating about, you know, the ifs and
buts and maybes of the documents. I mean, there's,
there's no, there's no direct real evidence of this being a
script, as you've acknowledged in terms of terminologies. So
you're, you're having to speculate that it's a very
amateur script, because I actually write down all of the
dialogue between you and I, and then just say, that's a script,
you know, and for a movie or something. And, and that's
basically what you've got, yes, there's very strange ways in
which is worded. But Eric Davis is a bit of a weird like savant,
who seems to remember so much detail. So he was, and it seems
like based on what Admiral Wilson was saying to him in the
description, in the notes, that he was aware that he was taking
notes that he was jotting down things because he says, What are
you going to do with all this information? So I think that he
was probably taken very quick notes in real time and fleshed
it out maybe after the fact. But I think that it's it's more,
it's more just likely a testament to his, his intellect,
that there's this very strange level of detail. But the the
script, the script writing thing gets me because I feel like you
have to juxtapose the amateur script writing that has no
production terminologies in it whatsoever. With the exquisit
knowledge in detail that is presented in the admiral Wilson
documents relating to program terminologies, you know, Special
Access Program. The chairman of the Office of our staff, there's
a lot of terminology, the ATP, the advanced theoretical physics
group.
John Greenewald: But what in there not to step on you? What
in there is new? That wasn't publicly available? No,
Jay: absolutely, but definitely not widely publicly available.
So I'm just wondering who wrote this script? For what for what
reason? Why was it never adapted into anything? Why have we never
heard about a company that was looking to do this, there's, I'm
just saying that they based on face value of, of calling it a
script, that doesn't seem to be a whole lot of evidence for it
being a script, other than the fact that it's, you know, well,
well worded and kind of like beefed out and seems almost a
little too, you know, data intense to even be a
conversation. But we are dealing with someone who, like, you
know, Lou Elizondo said is a very brilliant mind. And he does
have an extremely keen memory. But the thing is, as well, in
order to, in order for this to be a fictional script, we do
have to be calling Eric Davis or help us off liars, you know,
individuals who've dedicated their careers towards finding
out as much as they can about the UFO issue. I just don't
know, why would they decide to write a fictional script? Or if
it was, if it was,
John Greenewald: who said they wrote it?
Jay: Well, that was about to say, if if it was given to them
circulated amongst the core members of a highly professional
UFO research group, and then allow Edgar Mitchell to go live
on CNN with Larry King to talk about it? And then give their
strange comments, and then, you know, there's been other
statements, you know, I just, I just it like, there's there
doesn't seem to be enough for me to say, yeah, there's there's
definitely something here that says that it could be a
production storyboard even a short, really basic one, even a
really basic one.
John Greenewald: So I know you suck, because you commented on
it. You had a an animated GIF response, where there was
somebody who worked in television and said to them, it
looked like a movie script or something like that. There's
been quite a few comments on the video as well. And both ways
people attack I'm not saying that all of my audience agrees
with me. No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying, though,
is that there are people that support that theory in the sense
that they have that background, they can, they can see that
connection. But here's my overall point is that, again,
it's just a possibility. I'm not betting my house on this. But in
order for the script theory to really be made, to really be
solidified, you need to essentially speculate, right,
you need to fill in the gaps, right, you need to fill in the
holes, because not everything there is to prove that this is a
script. And you need to take the support structure from other
people that are out there that may know and feel that this is a
script that they come along bored with it. And here's my
point. Is that what's different with that,
Jay: Jones? I just lost my Wi Fi connection. That's okay. I just
lost about 1015 seconds.
John Greenewald: No problem. I can go back, which was the last
you.
Jay: I honestly can't remember because I was just frantically
trying to get my Wi Fi to come out. That's,
John Greenewald: that's okay. Just take back your phone. So
yeah, yeah. Then I'll start the thought over and hopefully make
it more concise. But so in order for the script theory, because
again, I'm not betting my house on this to make sense. or excuse
me, let me start over and I'll edit that stumble out. No, I
want this. So everybody can see my stumbles. I don't want to cut
anything out. So in order for the script theory to make sense,
I'm not betting my house on this, that this is the absolute
truth. But in order for that, to make sense, you need to fill in
the gaps, right? You need to speculate a little bit. Because
the evidence is not there. I fully admit that that this is
100%, a movie scripts, just a theory. But you need to
speculate you need to fill in the gaps. There are enough
people that have commented that have, according to them a
entertainment background where they can see the possibility. So
I have a support structure. I'm not saying my entire audience
feels that way. In fact, a lot of people disagree. But I have
that support structure from people that know about it that
say, You know what? That's very well, that could very well be
true. So I have all of that. And my question to you is what is
different than what we've talked about for the last hour 45, from
what I feel, is kind of the same way for advocating for the
documents, you have gaps, you have to speculate a little bit,
you got to read in between the lines a little bit, you got to
essentially, forgive that the phrasing but make up the middle
to get to the end where these things are real. And that's what
I was so fascinated by that people would dismiss the theory
and call me every name in the book and say it was stupid, but
they never really explained why they just said no that you can't
be proved. So what is the difference?
Jay: Well, I think because I you know I haven't worked in the
industry, but I did a degree in TV and film. So I've got a
background in like reading scripts or treatments or
storyboards or anything like that. If I was given the notes
and I had no background in UFO ology, and I didn't know about
these people, and I read it, I'd say, Well, yeah, but that looks
like it's a story. Like, you know, this looks like it could
be a story. But I think that, that you did say, and you're
right, there's speculation on both sides. I feel like there's
more speculation on the script side, because there's no
evidence for being a script, like there's no direct evidence
in the actual writing of it being used for production or any
intention of it being used for production. But when you look at
the other side of this, there seems to be and again, like, I
can't go through everything that I've gone over. But the
statements the the connections to things in the in the in the
in the notes, like the ATP being mentioned, there's a lot of
stuff in here that would suggest a very, very detailed knowledge
of not only UFO ology, but the inner workings of the
governmental structure of special access programs, who
coordinates them who looks at the oversight. And, and again,
you do have these statements from people like Edgar Mitchell
and the strange statements from helpers, often Eric Davis. So I
think that there's I think there's a lot more supporting
the idea that this is potentially legitimate than
there is for supporting, you know, the script, if there was
one, bracket, e x t, close bracket in there, I would be
very suspicious, you know, saying that it was some sort of
a particular shot or some sort of particular scene, open scene,
Eg and G, you know, the admiral pulls up the car, you know, that
all of
John Greenewald: that is what three quarters of what you just
said is in there, it just didn't have X t for exterior in the
script. And I think that that that again, leans into the
amateurish approach that that I think somebody could take, so
it's speculation to just say, well, we didn't see e x t. So we
have to
Jay: write right, like, like I said, I am honestly just gonna
have to fall back on all of the things that I've already listed
in this conversation and say that I feel like there's more of
those things than there are for being on the side of a script.
Like if there was a lot of different signifiers of this
being some sort of dramatize situation, you know, then I
would, I would agree, but the thing is, there's dialogue in
these notes that's been confirmed by people outside of
just the existence of these notes. Again, Edgar Mitchell
confirming that there was some sort of investigatory journal
journey done by a vice admiral who was denied access, and other
people who have also said similar things. So you've got, I
feel like you've got more on the side of this being a real
situation, I'm not seeing, like, I guess you're not seeing on my
on my perspective on some of this, I'm not seeing enough
evidence for me to be satisfied with it being a production
script. I'm happy to acknowledge that there could be issues in
this story. Maybe Admiral Wilson was told lies, maybe he lied to
Eric Davis. So we don't know if everything is completely, you
know, true. But I personally am not seeing the evidence for a TV
script outside of some dramatize styles of writing. And an Eric
Davis is a is an interesting guy, and has a has a penchant
for drama. So he's, he's quite dramatic character anyway, so I
could imagine him writing it in this way. But um, yeah, when it
comes to kind of like the war of speculations, I kind of feel
like there's more speculation for it to be incorporated into a
treatment script storyboard than there is for this to be a
potentially real scenario.
John Greenewald: I, I find it interesting that one of the key
players and advocates for the notes who's involved with it is
heavily involved with making entertainment scripted programs.
Who's Steven Greer. Right, and he's got now I will not say that
I think that he made it but what I will say is that's in the same
arena from those who are advocating that there's
something real. And it just so happens that there's this, I
would say, dark and shady past that Edgar Mitchell himself, was
very upset that Steven Greer was overreaching with the claims
that he was making. And so that's why in my opinion, well,
I sit here and go I think Steven Greer wrote this No, that's not
what I'm saying. But I'm saying you can't say he didn't either.
Because the past is there with the honorable American that you
speak very highly, highly of and Soto I was pretty upset at Dr.
Steven Greer for saying things that weren't true. And when, you
know, when I asked Dr. Greer, are the notes real? And the
quote I'm paraphrasing he said yeah, pretty much across the
board, and that he would want to go line by line with me and
while I mean we'll see if That never happens. But there's just
something weird here. And I think that there's a discounting
of those types of things for substituting the the advocating
that this is all real. And that going back to the the fictional
script idea was, again, not not trying to say like, Look, this
is definitely a script. But rather, there's the same, in my
opinion, and I know you'll disagree, but in my opinion, the
same amount of evidence, per se, with a very comparable amount of
speculation and gap filling, to either say this is a
fictionalized account, or that it's real. And I think that
that's what we're missing in this entire conversation. And I
appreciate you showing up here to have this conversation. So
I'm not directing this at you. But a lot of people will
discount any other theory, simply because they believe that
it's real. And you've acknowledged that a lot of it
falls back on off the record, and anonymously sourced
statements. And that, to me, makes this an incredibly
difficult situation to buy into.
Jay: So let me ask, let me ask you, if Eric Davis didn't write
these notes, and let's just say for the sake of argument, Steven
Greer wrote these notes, and and has circulated them under false
pretenses. Why is Eric Davis not said that this is just a bunch
of BS?
John Greenewald: You? That's a great question. And I don't
know. But I do fall back on what you lead off with, with his with
the ego. And and I agree with you, and does he want that
attention? Does he care if his name is involved in a
fictionalized whatever, because look, there is an army of people
that support these documents that that feel that they are
real, and that the main character of the story, the two
main characters includes Dr. Eric Davis. So I would
absolutely put up the argument that based on what we see
publicly from him from that egotistical standpoint, that he
would want that he wants that Mystique. And, and in that group
of people, I know I said it probably an hour and a half ago.
But I'll repeat it here is that that group of people I think,
likes the mystique. I think they like the aura around them of
mystery, and intrigue, and that they are more in the know, than
all of us. And one thing I'll say about Dr. Hal put off who
I've spoken with, directly, and I give him credit, because he's
one of the very few that writes me back. And I know he's not a
fan of mine. But he will absolutely respond for the most
part when I reach out to him and I and I give him credit for
that. But if the rumors are true that he believes in this mj 12
particular document, I don't want to spiral off into that.
But my whole point is, is that if that really if that rumor is
true, because I couldn't get him to confirm that that was the
document. If that is true, then there's a another layer here of
an issue, that if he's privately telling people that that mj 12
document is real, I believe definitively that that is a
hoax. And this is the SN ie the National Intelligence estimate
document. Again, I don't want to spiral off into that. But my
whole point is, is if all of that is true, he may want that.
That Mystique as well that he knows certain things about UFO
crash retrievals and alien bodies that nobody else knows.
Jay: So would you would you say then that either Eric or how
lied to Edgar Mitchell? Why was that? Why was a conventional
talking about an associate of his interviewing an admiral in
Las Vegas, or the fact that the admiral was denied and got a
reports later than the calls that confirmed it. I mean, you
know, he was obviously very convinced that this was real. So
someone lied to work eventually, just in your theory of Sure, was
the way it went down. And Eric Davis was actually aware that
this was fake, but wanted to boost his own ego. He, he he
risks he risked the credibility of the knids infrastructure and
potential, you know, reputations with people that were his very
close colleagues, by lying to them and allowing them to talk
about something like this on on live television.
John Greenewald: So that goes back to the Discovery Channel. I
think you said discovery quote, right, that we talked about,
because I wrote it down. And it
Jay: was actually a different quote, I have actually got links
for these quotes in an email. So I'm happy to send them to you.
You can put them in the description. I
John Greenewald: will put them all in so everybody knows what
we're talking about today. To answer your question, though,
what was Edgar Mitchell lied to? I mean, that's a powerful
accusation to make and I don't want to sit here and say that
they sat there and totally misled Dr. Edgar Mitchell, but
what I would be open to is that these Notes somehow, because
again, that context is missing, which is why one of my first
questions to you is what was the context of why these notes were
in, you know, his possession? That the context that plays a
huge role in how to answer your question, and I can't, because
nobody can answer that question for me on why he had that. He
was with knids. I'm talking about the okay. But But again, I
mean, I think and this is challenging my memory, because
it was a couple hours ago now. But I had asked about the actual
context of what the like you said it and correct me if I'm
wrong, that nobody can say that either. Davis handed these to
Edgar Mitchell and said, I sat down in a car with Thomas
Wilson.
Jay: No, but like the fact that Edgar Mitchell talks about it
with such confidence, at least hinting towards the short
version, that seems to be this issue, the fact that he talks
about it with such confidence, and he has this background in
the needs advisory board connected to Edgar Mitchell and
you know, will not a conventional Eric Davis help us
off? Well, Miller. I think that that is a pretty good reason why
he would be in have access to this kind of information that
would be circulated through knids. And I think it was, let
me just make sure I've got my my facts, right, but commander
Miller told, yeah, Commander commander Miller told Steven
Greer and I believe he also told Edgar Mitchell about the
Admiral's phone calls and then in the notes, because, again,
we're having to use the notes, but we're referring back to a
real interview that took place, which is the Larry King
interview, where he says they had calls in a report. And if
you're if you're kind of comparing that with what's said
in the notes, Eric Davis confirms that it was Edgar
Mitchell that told him about the phone calls from Mila, you know,
this whole kind of phone call trajectory. So there's there's
things outside of the documents that seem to confirm what's
written in the documents about the way in which this kind of
traveled down the grapevine of this group, and again, if it was
going to be circulated through knids, because Eric Davis, and
how put off were prominent members, and the guy that was on
the advisory board, who also did the initial briefing for Admiral
Wilson, Edgar Mitchell, of course, he's going to be tied
into that. And given the documents, they came that they
came from his estate, they came from his estate in a cache of
files all to do about the UFO issue. So I think the it's very,
it's it's, again, I know, I know, we're having to kind of
move into speculation, but I feel like it's kind of like
informed speculation where you've got a good idea as to why
a man like Edgar Mitchell would have these documents in his
possession. He was moving in the same circles as the people that
supposedly got this information into their group. And he was
also the guy alongside Greer and Miller, who was at the initial
briefing of the Pentagon. So he's in a perfect position to be
let you know read in on that, by Sure.
John Greenewald: So this this next question, and you may
believe this aspect to the story or discounted I've never seen a
disc discounted or discredited. And I don't mean this, this
question to be disrespectful to the late Dr. Edgar Mitchell. But
I do have to ask because he has talked with assertion about
other things, specifically, being remote healed by a healer,
in Canada of kidney cancer. Do you believe that to be true?
JOHN,
Jay: I went into my back garden got into a calm state of mind.
meditative state of mind very coherently planned my thought
process of what I wanted to happen and be exposed to and had
orange orbs of light flow over the house that I'm currently
living in. And people can call bs on that as much as they want,
I really don't care, because that happened to me. And that's
one of the most important reasons why I'm still invested
in this subject because of the actionability of consciousness
in a non local format, the exchange of quantum information
between separate systems in space and time via the medium of
consciousness. And I think that, absolutely, I am willing to
believe or trust in the fact that he had these kinds of
experiences because I'm not yet willing to discount the
actionability of consciousness in and its way to interact with
other bodies. And there are people who have, you know, who
claimed to be able to speak with spirits or to be able to do
this, that and the other. The the entire fear field is filled
with charlatans, and then there's real people, you know,
there are real people. I mean, you know, a little example of
this is my mother went to a medium once and, you know, the
information that was given to her and this, you know, what,
I'll always trust a medium that lives on just a random estate,
like in a rundown house who's not on a TV show, who just lets
people come for free and do a reading. That's the kind of meat
I'm on trust. And and she she managed to produce some
fascinating results about my mom's personal life that just
blew her away. So I think that when we're talking about like,
should we consider Edgar Mitchell credible? Because he
believes in these kinds of things? Yeah, I think that
absolutely, because this is an unknown physics that is still
being addressed. In fact, it was, you know, addressed in the
a tip, slide nine, you know, comments about how these things
seem to be able to affect cognitive human interface and
all sorts of strange ideas around consciousness. And, and
what was once called the phenomenon or what was once
paranormal is now quantum physics. And so I think that
yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't strike me as a particularly big
red flag, just because from my own perspective, and I'm sure
you have some, you know, very intelligent, but materially, you
know, aligned individuals within your demographic who would say,
No, this is just woowoo silliness. But I have to draw
back on my own subjective, hopefully, subjective evidence,
that's my own personal evidence that there is something about
the perturbing of the mind the perturbing of consciousness. And
and its potential to act in an in an expanded state that
doesn't just interact with this, you know, this, this human body?
So, yeah, my perspective on that, because consciousness is
kind of my jam. Is that? Yeah, this is this is not necessarily
a red flag for me.
John Greenewald: Yeah. And I think, just to clarify the
question, because I grew up in a very, my mom was very
metaphysical growing up. And so I've been been around that kind
of stuff. That's a totally different show in itself. So I'm
not turned off by that idea. But I think the root of why I'm
asking it essentially leads into your question of, you know, was
he lied to? And that's the, that's the thing. We don't know
if they even had a conversation with them. We don't know, the
true and exact nature and to your admission, you have to kind
of fill in those gaps. And, you know, was he lied to? Or did he
just believe a little bit more easily than he should? The one
quote that I did write down that I want to see, you said that he
was he expanded on the story, the quotes that I had pulled to
read, and all the ones that I saw, stopped at a certain point.
So again, it was like the notes had all these other details, but
all of the interviews by Edgar Mitchell, you know, kind of
stopped there. But if you have something great, I'd love to see
it. But I think that that going back to the question you asked
me It's so hard to answer, because we have to speculate
that he was even told anything that we don't know the true
cost. And I know that we can assume certain things, but the
true context of why he had it, and did Dr. Davis give it to him
and say, Look, this is what I had. This is what I experienced.
This is what I saw this right. I heard. I don't know that. And
until somebody comes along, we can't really say for sure.
Jay: Well, I agree. I mean, you know, I mean, what would your
personal opinion be on why he said, We got a call a few weeks
later, and a report much later than that, that confirmed that
this indeed, like happened. I mean, what what, what do you
think he was referring to in regards to a report? Other than
that, what
John Greenewald: I what I could get? That's a great question,
what I could take away and kind of believe from that, is that
Admiral Wilson stepped on something that maybe was not for
whatever reason, in his need to know and that he was denied, I
could buy that. It would, I would still put up an argument,
but I could buy that much of it. But I kind of lost my train of
thought. What was the way you asked the question? Because I
started
Jay: just fine. I was just saying, in relation to Edgar
Mitchell on CNN saying that there was a call and then a
John Greenewald: call on the report, I'm sorry, I kind of
went off on a different way. So that that's the part that I
could, you know, hop on to. And so for him to get a call could
absolutely be supported where Thomas Wilson says, Look, man,
I, I got into some we'll call it Department of Energy, you know,
type program, I'm just saying that because that I could buy
that he tried to access something that was a little bit
out of his need to know being a j two with the D o t. But you
know, over there with DLP, which has a whole nother level of
secrecy. They go Look, I mean, this isn't a god, jurisdiction,
so to speak. So you're not allowed. I could buy that. And
so the phone call and the report, I didn't take him saying
report as a written report. Just like it was a report like yeah,
I called I got denied access. Let me get back to you. And then
he reported back and solidified. Yeah, I tried and I couldn't
enjoy again, that's
Jay: sorry, I just say the wording of it, because he said
like he said, we received phone calls, and then a report much
later than that. So it seems like there's a differential
between a phone call and what he's claiming to be a report. I
John Greenewald: mean, are you claiming that that's the notes?
Jay: I think it's probably likely that that's the notes. I
mean, I can't think of anything else. I mean, obviously This is
the only thing we have within the public sphere, these notes
to kind of go by but if I was going to if I had been exposed
to phone calls and then a report by Eric Davis like a transcript
by Eric Davis like this, I would probably consider that a report,
you know that
John Greenewald: more than a four year gap. So, so 1997 they
meet in the Pentagon with Wilson Greer, will Miller and so on.
Right. He goes out, they they try and or he Wilson goes out,
he tries to gain access gets denied. If the report is that's
Yeah, 2002. So that's, that's a, that's a five year gap. That's
more than five years. So if it was, I think April of 97 is when
the rumor was I think April 9, or something somebody quoted was
quoted saying, I don't know, we'll just call it 1997. The
notes were not written until 2002. So you're talking about,
again, that five year gap, so
Jay: alright, know that I'll acknowledge that. That could be
pretend I'm trying to fit? Yeah. That's definitely Yeah, that's
definitely the right chronology, isn't it, that he made those
statements prior to the prior to the notes being made?
John Greenewald: Correct. I mean, assuming that the meeting
was, you know, 2002, as as written, and there's a four year
gap between Stephen Greer's retelling of the story, but that
also Ends with You know, he tried and and stopped access,
you know, he could couldn't get couldn't get access.
Jay: I think that then in that case, yeah, the report the
reports, it could be considered to be, you know, questionable,
since it seems like it might require time travel. But
John Greenewald: which could happen, hey, I'm,
Jay: well, I've heard things. But um, no, I think I think that
what he's still outlining in there, which, which, again, he
does outline the fact that there was a subsequent investigatory
journey from just this preliminary briefing in the
Pentagon. So yeah, I'll concede that point on the report most
likely not being represented of the of the notes, because it
seems to be in contradiction with the timelines. But he does
in that interview in that statement, describe the
situation that seems to be indicative of the admiral Wilson
leaks in terms of this denial of access. And I do have to go back
onto that fact that the admiral Wilson himself has only ever
confirmed this briefing took place and denied everything
else. So it just seems strange to me that Edgar Mitchell words,
you know, basically say that this is not the case that there
was a continuation, there was an investigatory effort on behalf
of the Vice Admiral within the fellow within the defense
infrastructure. So yeah, no, good point. Good. I, like I
said, I'm happy to be fact checked. And I want to be able
to have an objective conversation about this. There's
no inherent bias on my side, or at least I try not to be. But I
still think that there's moments in that statement that still
seem to lean towards this being true that the incidents that
were described in the documents do seem to be representative of
this statement of, hey, this guy went on after our briefing and
started trying to find things turn over stones and you know,
was basically told to, to go away.
John Greenewald: One last thing that I want to just kind of get
your comment on, and then I'll pass it to you, I want to make
sure you have every opportunity to say whatever closing words
you would like, I know it's getting late over there. So I
appreciate you sticking around. And it's the final, I think,
concern for me to get on board that any of this can be
legitimate. And it goes back to the security questions, which
we've already talked about a little bit. But I want to kind
of give a summary of what we have to accept when it comes to
breaking security oaths, by many of these individuals to accept
that this is true. And this is where I want your reaction. We
talked a little bit about Thomas Wilson himself being that J.
Two, that he goes, he violates his oath, you know, with Dr.
Eric Davis, you responded to that, but I at least want to
give that that bullet point again. Greer also reinforces the
violation of that oath, per his speeches, and a written book. So
in essence, he's because we're on the same page that the idea
of these programs existing should they exist, would be
classified in nature. So all of this is being published by major
publishing houses, including being said in public classified
information. nobody's doing anything about it. Per the
notes, we didn't talk about this part, but Thomas Wilson's aide
had told Miller that mj 12 exists or an mj 12 like group,
that in itself again, it sounds like we're in agreement would be
essentially a classified in nature idea. And the aid says
oh, we were denied access, but they're confirming it to will
Miller, who is not cleared, it doesn't matter if he has an
active clearance or not, he likely doesn't have a need to
know about an mj 12. Like group. Same deal with, you know, Eric
Davis No need to know we talked about that. And lastly, Steven
Greer with his NRO list. And I'm hoping you can send me that
document because I'm sure it's out there. The the program, the
NRO document that he talks about, I tried to find that and
prep for this show. And it's, it's on his website,
that I must have missed it. So if you could send that to me,
but regardless, according to him from what I was reading in his
book, and everything, they were secret code words, right.
Alright. So this was a leaked document, correct? Yeah. Okay.
So a leaked classified document is flashed to the J two. And
they confirm that its real, which in essence, would be a
breach of classified information. Now, all of a
sudden, you have all of these, you know, secret code words and
consumer code words and project names out there in the cosmos.
Now, I want to give one example, and I want to throw it to you of
why none of that, to me is plausible. And this is in the
public realm, anybody can verify this, a researcher by the name
of Lee Graham, very nice guy, very smart has been at this for
years. He's got to be in his 80s, maybe 90s. Now, but I met
him about 25 years ago. And he had a, at least a secret
clearance, maybe top secret through Aero jet. And he was
inadvertently given the code names, senior trend, which was
the classified at the time program name for the F 117
stealth fighter. Now, why I'm bringing this up is he didn't
have a need to know. But he he was inadvertently told that code
name highly classified program. What happened next was a
nightmare for him huge investigation, he was forced to
sign a classified document that said he would never talk about
it, that it was all a mistake, and that he in essence, would
have to forget about it. And it was then later declassified in
1990. So he was able to talk about it. What's my point? All
of these issues that I have with this, in my opinion, is
dismissible by verifiable fact and Lee Graham again being that
public story that anybody can verify. And I'll put the
document in the show notes as well. It's the the affidavit he
had to sign. You know, what hits the fan when classified
information gets out. Even with those that have a security
clearance. When they hear information like this, it hits
the fan, Lee Graham is a verifiable example. So that's my
schpeel. In that all of that has to be accepted as true. And all
of that has to be the Accept the rare exception to the rule that
I haven't seen anybody come back and say, Hey, Well, look, it
happened with this, or it happened with that, or it
happened with this. What is your reaction to that? And can you
cite any high level security breach like this, where the
people that heard classified information, just got away with
it?
Jay: So you brought up a brilliant point. And, you know,
I don't I don't personally know enough about the intricacies of,
you know, kind of like clearance, bureaucracy and
linguistics and how you can word things to know entirely why
these kind of situations might have gone through, you know,
this, this, this process and almost been basically allowed to
happen, because you bring up a really good point. But I think
that I did have a train of thought on this, because I was
thinking about it while you're talking.
John Greenewald: I'm keeping you up late. So I totally, it's 22
one in the morning right now. So I'm so sorry.
Jay: It's alright, don't worry. And this is kind of like a very
intensive question that I'm trying to wrap my head around,
because you're absolutely right to bring it up. I think that one
issue would be and this is just me reaching. But I think one
issue might be that this is about UFOs. And it's about
reverse engineering. And it's about one of the biggest secrets
that could be potentially being kept. And so by bringing further
attention to it, they may actually make it worked for
themselves, because by that point, you're acknowledging it.
So if you're going to press show, because I mean, one of the
things, and obviously we can talk about the credibility of
Steven Greer, but one of the things that he made a point of
saying quite a few times over the years, is because these
things are operating in some sort of very murky level of, you
know, essentially a legal oversight, that they're not
actually bound by constitutional and you know, kind of
congressional governmental oversight procedures and
standardized legal procedures. So they're not actually
operating in the It legal zone that we know of, and that by by
virtue of that that kind of knowledge voids all of the
security clearance restrictions on this type of issue if it's
been managed in a way that's obfuscating legal oversight or
standardized oversight on a governmental level, so perhaps
there is actually a loophole with one of the most sensitive
issues in the portfolio of the United States government, where
it's so sensitive, that if you if you're actually going to talk
about it, it's best just to not say anything to these people or
let them just kind of fade away into the, into the madness of
the UFO community, which has been D stigmatize stigmatized
for so long, and kind of like, you know, put into the corner.
So obviously, I am speculating here on the on the fat because
yes, there are some pretty significant what you would
imagine to be breaches of classified information. I mean,
the notes themselves aren't classified, because it's it's a,
it's a document written privately outside of government.
So the actual document itself is not stamped with a
classification stamp. Obviously, the information is extremely
sensitive, and most likely does breach some level of national
security agreements between the parties. But I think that
perhaps it's not at the kind of level where they would actually
make a point of, you know, arresting or putting criminal
charges down on these people there, there really could be the
case that this is existing in such an obvious gated manner,
that it's just better to let people say something about this,
and ignore it, than to press charges and kind of solidify
legitimacy for the issue. So I mean, I think that that's one
potential reason. And like I said, I do like, I'm just a 26
year old guy from the UK with no background in government, and
I've picked up on all this stuff over the past couple of years,
and I'm trying my best to kind of formulate structures that are
based on something I've not been privy to in my life. And I'm
only just learning about now. So I'm quite happy to be shown to
have a lack of knowledge in certain areas. But I do fall
back on people, you know, like Ross Coulter to spend decades
going through defense journalism and networking with people with
security clearances. He's also a trained lawyer, he knows how to
handle things confidentially. And he's quite versed on the
intelligence community's you know, Frank Milburn, former
strategic analyst and British, you know, Special Forces, Bob
McGuire, the former founder of the human center of the national
security and technology studies at Virginia Tech, like there's a
few different people that seem to have a background in at least
knowing what the procedures would be like and what can and
can't be said, who are still quite happy to sit behind this
and say, there's enough here for me to feel that this is actually
a legitimate scenario, and I'm willing to put my weight behind
it to talk about it. So, you know, from from my very layman
perspective, I can only kind of grasp at straws as to the
reasons why something like this would be able to escape the kind
of klore of us bureaucracy and national, you know, national
security implications. I have to just fall back on the knowledge
that I know some of my colleagues have, and an imagine
that they're probably talking from a point of authority. So
just like you've had people speak to you, it seems like
there's differences of opinion, even within the intelligence
community, even even with people that manage the kind of networks
and structures that we're both talking about there, there seems
to be a difference of opinion. So this is why for me, this
whole situation falls back on the fact that it needs to be
talked about scrutinized, addressed, kind of kept in the
momentum of the UFO conversation, and maybe we'll
get further developments that can corroborate and confirm and,
and give us a good reason why something like this would escape
because you're absolutely right to bring up something like this.
these are these are the issues that needs to be understood and
addressed. How could something like this be talked about? And
these people are still roaming free? I think that's an
important question. I don't think I have the answer for it.
But I'd like I said, I do fall back on some of the people I
know that believe it's real. And and potentially, the fact that
this is actually so sensitive, that they'd rather just not even
acknowledge that these people are actually talking about a
real situation, and they will just fizzle out on its own,
which kind of has I mean, you know, outside of the UFO
community who know who knows about this, no one knows about
the admiral Wilson leaks, you know, I'd stop anyone in the
street and they would know about it. So it has been suppressed
very, very much. So in terms of, you know, if this if this issue
actually is real, I mean, that, you know, no pun intended, the
gravity behind this situation is intense if it's actually a real
situation. This should be across every world media platform.
There is, as we all know, in the UFO community with much
frustration that is not usually what occurs only until recently
have we seen a sudden address all of this issue in a modern
context. But when it comes Talking about stuff like this,
especially legacy programs. I think we've all seen that
there's no intention within this mainstream narrative. We've seen
adapt from 2017. There's no intention to open up the
discussion of programs that might exist from the US
government's perspective. You know, there's nothing in the UAP
report about investigating Special Access Programs. So I
think that this, you know, there is a potential reality for this
to exist in such a, an obfuscated level of government
that it's barely even legal. You know, I think Richard Dolan
calls it legal illegality, so it's like, you know, it's on
this. It's, it's so close to being absolutely unacceptable.
So and and before I finish this thought off, again, I withdraw
from other sources who have claimed these programs exist.
The Admiral Wilson documents, isn't the only document or isn't
the only situation, which seems to be inferring that there is
this kind of level of clandestine research and
development happening in the black. So it's not the only
situation is pointing towards that it just happens to be one
of the more detailed ones. So I think that I think that there
are reasons to be skeptical about the documents, I wouldn't
say that there isn't, you've listed some very important
reasons to have some skepticism. But it's not enough skepticism,
in my opinion, to dilute the entire story down to nothing.
But you know, just a Fugazi. It's, it's, it's something
interesting, and and i think that it needs to be developed
upon over time. So yeah, I'm, I'm having to kind of like, word
my way through this, because I don't have a truly definitive
answer as to why they were able to get away with saying these
things and why they even thought of saying these things. But I
don't personally feel that it's just black and white, there
might be reasons why that was able to occur, you know,
John Greenewald: nothing, usually black and white. And
that was no, that was that was well said, and here's my
takeaway. And I want you to know this, I have a lot of respect
for people that will step into the vault like this, and know
that we don't see eye to eye with this, but sit here for two
and a half hours, and have a conversation. And walking away.
You know, my respect level for you? rose considerably, not that
I was disrespectful going into this, but rather, I want you to
know how much I appreciate that. And and that I hope that this
serves as a testament to those out there that maybe did go in
the weeds like both of us, you know, and I think I said it
privately. But if not, I'll say publicly that I apologize, you
know, for those social media battles a year or two ago, but
how we've risen above that can have a conversation like this,
that has to happen more often. So my hat's off to you for that.
And I hope you don't stop asking questions. I hope you continue
doing what you are doing, which I know you will. But there needs
to be more people like you out there that, again, the I don't
expect everyone to agree with me, but the fact that you
listened, and the fact that you took the questions and and gave
them out as well. My hat's off to you. So I really want to say
thank you for that
Jay: was really, really kind of you, john. And you know, I'd
like to just echo back the same sentiments because, you know, I
like I said before, I have a lot of respect for you with the work
of black volt. But we did have areas of contention on this. And
I you know, I did my fair share of silly little snide comments
and responses over Twitter. And I really, I'm really happy with
how this has turned out. I will admit, I'm not ashamed to admit
I was a little bit anxious about how this might go down between
you and me, because even though we did reach out where you
reached out to me and we both, you know, shook hands water
under the bridge, no problems given because I'm not a kind of,
I don't like to hold on to grudges, and no one likes to
hold on to grudges. So I was, you know, a little bit like, Oh,
I hope this goes well. But I'm really, really happy with this.
I feel like we've both looked at this from our perspectives. We
both agreed on certain points that seem to be you know, mixed
into, is it real? Is it not real? And yeah, I'm I'm really,
really happy with how this whole thing went down. And I just want
to thank you for giving me the opportunity to have this kind of
conversation. Because this this is exactly what we need in the
UFO community. There's, there's and I do think as I said to you
in the DMS A lot of it does come back to social media, social
media is a brilliant tool, but it's also a pretty devastating
weapon because it does create a much shorter fuse in our ability
to deal with people, especially if you're a content creator or a
researcher and you've got a lot of people commenting and, and
you can get quite dismissive quite quickly if you're finding
yourself disagreeing with a lot of people about different
things. So I think social media exasperates that level of the
human mind, the ego the reptilian aggressive fighting
mind and and that's Not always the true representation of a
person. And I have to admit, this is the first time we've had
a full dialogue between each other. And I have a much a much
grander and a much clearer assessment of you as an
individual than I did just having short, sharp comments
between each other on Twitter. So I think that that can be a
lesson for everyone listening, is try and remember that you
know, on Twitter on social media, people aren't always the
way that they normally are. And you don't always get to give the
most amount of detail the best perspective so try and take
those types of interactions with a pinch of salt and it's always
good to have this kind of thing because it proves that we're
able to have a calm, civil, you know, matures conversation
whilst still disagreeing with each other, while still moments
where we don't agree with each other. But being able to finish
it, which I think we're gonna have to do now. I was I might
actually pass out.
John Greenewald: Yeah, no, that was that was my that was my
closing remark to you. And I wanted to make sure you had the
last word you gave a brilliant response before, but I wanted to
make sure if there was anything else you wanted to add, you had
an opportunity to do so.
Jay: I'm just happy we did this. And I think it's been the best
possible result that we could have hoped for. You know, and I
hope you agree with the No, absolutely. It's
John Greenewald: a shame I didn't press record. So we'll
have to do it all over again. Now, that that that said, Get
some much needed sleep, thank you to everyone who tuned in,
please make sure that you that you give a thumbs up. Make sure
that you subscribe to the channel and also check out Jays
project unity also linked in the show notes, click on that, check
out his videos, get all the information that you can,
because he's got a lot on there about all sorts of topics, not
just the Wilson Davis stuff, but quite a bit. Jay, thank you.
Again, thank you all for listening and watching. This is
John Greenewald, Jr signing off, and we'll see you next time.