1 00:00:21,810 --> 00:00:25,500 John Greenewald: To some, the Nimitz UFO encounter defies all 2 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:30,930 scientific explanation. It has everything you would want for a 3 00:00:30,930 --> 00:00:35,580 UFO case to be credible. From powerful eyewitness testimony 4 00:00:35,610 --> 00:00:36,780 from those who were there, 5 00:00:37,020 --> 00:00:39,720 David Fravor: I believe, as do the other folks that were on the 6 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,300 flight that we won't be visually saw that it was something not 7 00:00:42,300 --> 00:00:42,840 from this world 8 00:00:42,870 --> 00:00:45,720 John Greenewald: to a video recorded by the US Navy of an 9 00:00:45,750 --> 00:00:50,670 object that simply cannot be explained. The abundance of that 10 00:00:50,670 --> 00:00:54,630 evidence proves to some who look at it that this may be an 11 00:00:54,630 --> 00:00:57,810 encounter with an object from another world. 12 00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:07,500 But others say not so fast. They believe that the mysterious 13 00:01:07,530 --> 00:01:12,240 object chased by multiple F-18 fighter jet pilots is simply a 14 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,520 misidentification of a known object. 15 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:18,660 And the video that has circulated around the globe 16 00:01:18,660 --> 00:01:22,320 fascinating many who have seen it. Well, skeptics believe that 17 00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:25,650 is easily explainable once you dissect what the video is 18 00:01:25,650 --> 00:01:30,570 actually showing. So which side is right? Are we finally looking 19 00:01:30,570 --> 00:01:33,930 at undeniable evidence that we are not alone? Or does that 20 00:01:33,930 --> 00:01:37,920 evidence that seemingly proves such an explosive revelation 21 00:01:38,220 --> 00:01:42,870 fall apart when subjected to scientific scrutiny? The two 22 00:01:42,870 --> 00:01:46,920 gentlemen joining me today, both think they have the answers to 23 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,150 those questions. And after a vigorous scientific analysis, 24 00:01:51,210 --> 00:01:56,280 testing, and scrutiny by both sides, they are convinced they 25 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,000 solve the majority of this puzzle. However, their 26 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,310 conclusions are miles apart. 27 00:02:04,340 --> 00:02:08,840 On one side, you have Mick West, a noted and self-described 28 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,110 debunker of extraordinary claims, who has spent countless 29 00:02:12,110 --> 00:02:14,900 hours producing video presentations that offer 30 00:02:14,900 --> 00:02:18,500 scientific breakdowns and analyses on this very case. 31 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,630 Within these YouTube videos, he explains why he feels this case, 32 00:02:23,630 --> 00:02:27,980 and many like it are simple misidentifications and easily 33 00:02:27,980 --> 00:02:32,930 explainable, and none of them stand the test of science. And 34 00:02:32,930 --> 00:02:36,530 on the other side, you have Robert Powell, the executive 35 00:02:36,530 --> 00:02:40,880 board member of the scientific Coalition for UAP studies. His 36 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,440 organization produced a 270 page scientific paper on the Nimitz 37 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:50,480 UFO encounter. And within that report, the authors, all with 38 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,830 various scientific backgrounds, analyze the video, the witness 39 00:02:54,830 --> 00:02:58,790 testimony, and the available radar notes and subjected the 40 00:02:58,790 --> 00:03:01,190 evidence to their own scientific scrutiny. 41 00:03:02,570 --> 00:03:05,570 They concluded that the unknown object was traveling at 42 00:03:05,570 --> 00:03:09,920 extraordinary speeds, which were quote, "beyond the capability of 43 00:03:09,950 --> 00:03:12,530 any known aircraft in the public domain." 44 00:03:13,940 --> 00:03:18,170 Now, both sides are about to come together, these two 45 00:03:18,170 --> 00:03:21,080 gentlemen have agreed to step into the vault to discuss with 46 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,430 each other for the very first time, all of their findings. And 47 00:03:25,430 --> 00:03:29,240 along the way, they'll probably express why they feel that the 48 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,950 other is wrong. Stay tuned, you're about to journey inside 49 00:03:33,950 --> 00:03:34,700 the black vault. 50 00:04:15,020 --> 00:04:17,600 That's right, everybody. As always, thank you so much for 51 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,110 tuning in and making this your podcast or your live stream of 52 00:04:21,110 --> 00:04:24,440 choice. And I'm excited about today's episode. It's the first 53 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,340 for me to bring on a couple of guests at the same time. So from 54 00:04:28,340 --> 00:04:31,370 a technical end, I'll probably be more focused on not screwing 55 00:04:31,370 --> 00:04:35,390 this up, versus trying to start yapping above both of my guests. 56 00:04:35,570 --> 00:04:38,510 Now I know many of you have wanted to see these two 57 00:04:38,510 --> 00:04:41,240 gentlemen speak, both of which have been on my show in the 58 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:46,130 past, but independently, I have Robert Powell to your right, and 59 00:04:46,130 --> 00:04:50,750 Mick West to the left. Now, Mick and Robert, thank you both for 60 00:04:50,750 --> 00:04:54,650 taking the time to not only join me, but be open to a 61 00:04:54,650 --> 00:04:56,960 conversation between both of yourselves. 62 00:04:58,490 --> 00:04:59,270 Robert Powell: Glad to be here 63 00:05:00,140 --> 00:05:02,060 John Greenewald: I just want to kind of jump right into it. The 64 00:05:02,060 --> 00:05:04,760 audience just saw the introduction. I've kind of done 65 00:05:04,790 --> 00:05:07,760 a little bit on your background and the case that we're talking 66 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,660 about, obviously, the Nimitz case. And planning for this show 67 00:05:11,660 --> 00:05:14,180 I was always worried about Okay, who am I going to start first? 68 00:05:14,180 --> 00:05:18,080 Because will I upset the other one? And I never really figured 69 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,630 out what the right answer on that was. But I did want to ask 70 00:05:20,630 --> 00:05:24,590 you both just a very quick yes or no question, which kind of 71 00:05:24,590 --> 00:05:28,940 will define the way that I asked these questions. Now, so the 72 00:05:28,940 --> 00:05:32,750 audience knows, we never planned any questions. I have my own 73 00:05:32,750 --> 00:05:36,440 list here of what I want to deal with. But both Robert nor Mick 74 00:05:36,470 --> 00:05:39,290 did not have any requirements for this. They did not say, 75 00:05:39,380 --> 00:05:42,380 don't talk about this, or you better talk about this or I'll 76 00:05:42,380 --> 00:05:46,700 hang up on you. They were just open to have a conversation. And 77 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:49,610 that is a credit to both of them, that they just want to 78 00:05:49,610 --> 00:05:52,970 have a great conversation. One other housekeeping note for the 79 00:05:52,970 --> 00:05:56,420 audience itself. This isn't a formal debate, meaning we're not 80 00:05:56,420 --> 00:06:01,640 going to do stop watches and introductions and opening 81 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,580 speeches, we're just going to have a conversation. So here's 82 00:06:04,580 --> 00:06:07,400 my first quick question, just yes or no which will structure 83 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,760 structure where we go next. Both of you have done your 84 00:06:11,150 --> 00:06:16,220 independent scientific analyses on the Nimitz encounter, the 85 00:06:16,220 --> 00:06:20,270 footage and the witness testimony. Robert Mick has 86 00:06:20,270 --> 00:06:25,220 obviously produced quite a few different videos on the the 87 00:06:25,250 --> 00:06:28,070 encounter in the video analyzing it. Have you watched them? 88 00:06:29,420 --> 00:06:30,590 Robert Powell: I've seen some of them 89 00:06:30,620 --> 00:06:31,490 John Greenewald: seen some of them. 90 00:06:31,490 --> 00:06:34,940 Okay. And MC. Obviously, Robert is involved in an organization 91 00:06:34,940 --> 00:06:39,230 where they produced a 270 page scientific report a lot of 92 00:06:39,230 --> 00:06:43,010 information in there. And that is the brunt I think of Robert 93 00:06:43,010 --> 00:06:44,900 angle. Have you read that? 94 00:06:46,220 --> 00:06:48,830 Mick West: I've read a lot of it. But I wouldn't say I've read 95 00:06:48,830 --> 00:06:49,460 every word of it. 96 00:06:49,460 --> 00:06:52,700 John Greenewald: So fair enough. Okay. So let's just go ahead and 97 00:06:52,700 --> 00:06:57,080 kind of jump right into it. And I, I thought the video analysis 98 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,270 was a good place to start, we'll deal with a lot of different 99 00:06:59,270 --> 00:07:04,370 topics. But video first. Robert, I want to talk to, direct this 100 00:07:04,370 --> 00:07:09,800 to you to kind of set this up. And obviously, a lot of the 101 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,890 controversy behind this video, and we've seen a trickle into 102 00:07:12,890 --> 00:07:16,850 television shows, how people perceive the video, that this 103 00:07:16,850 --> 00:07:19,430 thing is showing an object that this video showing an object 104 00:07:19,610 --> 00:07:23,870 that shoots off at great speeds towards the end, is that your 105 00:07:23,870 --> 00:07:27,680 stance from an analysis standpoint, that this thing 106 00:07:27,710 --> 00:07:31,520 thing is accelerating at the end of that video at a great rate of 107 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:31,970 speed? 108 00:07:33,170 --> 00:07:38,360 Robert Powell: Yeah, let me just preface this, John, by saying in 109 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,660 our report, and there's really three basic things we look at 110 00:07:41,690 --> 00:07:46,220 the video is the lesser of the three, we analyze three 111 00:07:46,220 --> 00:07:52,280 instances where there is extreme acceleration. One is the reports 112 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:57,650 from the radar operators themselves. Two is the 113 00:07:57,650 --> 00:08:02,090 statements from the multiple pilots on how fast the object 114 00:08:02,090 --> 00:08:07,370 disappeared from view. And three is the video. So to your 115 00:08:07,370 --> 00:08:11,060 specific question, yes, we calculated based on the 116 00:08:11,060 --> 00:08:14,870 assumption that that object immediately accelerated to the 117 00:08:14,870 --> 00:08:15,980 left of the screen. 118 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,910 John Greenewald: Now, Mick, I believe that you go again 119 00:08:20,910 --> 00:08:21,960 t that, is that correc 120 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,510 Mick West: That is correct. Yeah. And I think I would go 121 00:08:24,570 --> 00:08:31,050 against kind of most of what was just said, I think that if you 122 00:08:31,050 --> 00:08:34,500 make the same assumptions that Robert and his team made, then 123 00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:37,320 Sure, yes, what we're seeing is something quite extraordinary. 124 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:42,000 But these assumptions are kind of based on very flimsy 125 00:08:42,030 --> 00:08:44,670 evidence, the first few things he mentioned, which he said were 126 00:08:44,670 --> 00:08:48,480 the strongest things are actually just essentially, 127 00:08:48,660 --> 00:08:51,660 eyewitness testimony and recollections and some, in some 128 00:08:51,660 --> 00:08:57,570 cases, third hand recollections. But to the video point, I think 129 00:08:57,570 --> 00:09:01,590 there's a very strong case to be made, that the camera does, in 130 00:09:01,590 --> 00:09:05,970 fact, simply lose lock at the end. And the object is not 131 00:09:05,970 --> 00:09:09,420 actually zooming off to the side. It is, in fact, just 132 00:09:09,420 --> 00:09:12,750 essentially drifting off to the side, because it's just 133 00:09:12,750 --> 00:09:15,570 continuing along its path and the camera is no longer tracking 134 00:09:15,570 --> 00:09:19,500 it. So that's what I feel about the video and I, you probably 135 00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:25,230 see my video on YouTube, "No Sudden Moves." And it goes in 136 00:09:25,230 --> 00:09:29,400 great detail and almost a frame by frame basis as to where the 137 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,540 camera loses lock at multiple points throughout that video and 138 00:09:33,540 --> 00:09:38,010 why the the object seems to move the way it does at the end. 139 00:09:39,900 --> 00:09:42,510 John Greenewald: Robert, he said that there were some assumptions 140 00:09:42,510 --> 00:09:47,820 made and your calculations and reporting. I assume myself that 141 00:09:47,820 --> 00:09:51,240 you may not agree with that. But were there holes that you guys 142 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,180 had from a scientific standpoint, holes that you had 143 00:09:54,180 --> 00:09:57,480 to fill in and maybe assume, or do you just disagree with that 144 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:58,080 altogether? 145 00:09:59,590 --> 00:10:01,780 Robert Powell: Now, let me The first thing I just want to 146 00:10:01,780 --> 00:10:07,060 mention real quick. Mick indicated that those were third 147 00:10:07,090 --> 00:10:12,370 hand recollections. Those were not third hand recollections of 148 00:10:12,370 --> 00:10:15,340 those were first hand recollections, firsthand 149 00:10:15,340 --> 00:10:18,880 recollections by both individuals who were operating 150 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:24,100 the radar systems, firsthand recollections by the pilots, one 151 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:27,400 of whom James Slaight, I interviewed personally. So 152 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,350 there's no third hand recollections here. 153 00:10:30,910 --> 00:10:36,820 In terms of the object drifting in the camera. What I would like 154 00:10:36,820 --> 00:10:42,370 to know is Mick's reasons the specific reasons of what he 155 00:10:42,370 --> 00:10:46,480 thinks is happening there. In other words, if he believes this 156 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,170 as an aircraft, how far away is the aircraft? What direction is 157 00:10:50,170 --> 00:10:54,220 the aircraft flying? What type of aircraft is it? And then we 158 00:10:54,220 --> 00:10:58,060 can discuss whether or not this is is not actually an object 159 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,630 moving across the screen? There's no reason not to believe 160 00:11:01,630 --> 00:11:02,710 that that's what's happening. 161 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,090 Mick West: Right? Well, what? I can answer that, I think because 162 00:11:07,870 --> 00:11:11,980 what I believe is happening is that it's an FA-18 team. I don't 163 00:11:11,980 --> 00:11:15,700 remember the exact distance that it was determined to be, but we 164 00:11:15,700 --> 00:11:19,000 know the the slant the upward angle, we know that we're 165 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,430 looking up, I think it's like between four and five degrees, 166 00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:24,490 it varies. And you can get a rough estimate of that. And it's 167 00:11:24,490 --> 00:11:30,280 moving kind of away from the plane and to the left. All of 168 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,400 which is kind of consistent with the various changes in the 169 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:38,020 angle, we see the angle at the top of the screen move from. I 170 00:11:38,020 --> 00:11:39,940 don't remember the exact numbers, but I think it's like 171 00:11:39,940 --> 00:11:43,720 three, three rights or five rights to eight left something 172 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,740 like that. So it's moving about 10 degrees or so. Which means 173 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,570 the plane is kind of moving away and to the left. And the speed 174 00:11:52,570 --> 00:11:56,650 is roughly consistent with the speed of an FA-18, like a few 175 00:11:56,650 --> 00:11:57,460 hundred knots. 176 00:11:58,740 --> 00:12:03,870 And I think that what we are seeing in terms of the movements 177 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:09,210 of the object are all explained by camera movement. Because the 178 00:12:09,210 --> 00:12:14,160 camera system that is being used the ATFLIR system is a system 179 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,260 that has multiple cameras. It has an optical camera, and it 180 00:12:19,260 --> 00:12:23,910 has a infrared camera. It also has multiple light pathways, the 181 00:12:23,910 --> 00:12:28,440 way the light moves internally, through the camera internally, 182 00:12:28,830 --> 00:12:32,280 to create these different zoom levels, which is done more with 183 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,480 mirrors than with with lenses in the infrared system at least. 184 00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:42,510 And we see Underwood, switching between these various things, we 185 00:12:42,510 --> 00:12:45,540 see a switch between wide and narrow fields of view, we see 186 00:12:45,540 --> 00:12:49,950 him switch between the TV mode and within the IR mode. And we 187 00:12:49,950 --> 00:12:54,150 also see camera movements that he didn't initiate at one point 188 00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:59,820 there is a gimbal roll where the entire field of view rotates, 189 00:12:59,820 --> 00:13:02,250 it's not actually the field of view rotating is actually the 190 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,400 the camera moving and we see the object makes a little circle, 191 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,820 and we see the whole light field in the sky rotate. And each time 192 00:13:08,820 --> 00:13:11,460 one of these things happen when he changes between the camera 193 00:13:11,460 --> 00:13:16,410 type or between the light path magnification, we see a loss of 194 00:13:16,410 --> 00:13:21,780 lock. We don't just see it immediately require, we see in 195 00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:24,960 some cases it have to widen the bar so it's actually we know 196 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,480 that it has last lock, and we know that it's searching for 197 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,260 that lock. And it does in all cases, except for the last one, 198 00:13:31,290 --> 00:13:33,210 which is pretty obviously we have to be the last one. 199 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,650 It reacquires that a lot. But in some places, it's pretty close, 200 00:13:37,650 --> 00:13:39,870 it's getting very close to the outside edge, and then it 201 00:13:39,870 --> 00:13:43,740 requires new centers and then it continues to track. But in every 202 00:13:43,740 --> 00:13:47,580 single one of those cases, not only is it losing lock, but when 203 00:13:47,580 --> 00:13:52,740 it loses like the direction that it moves in, is to to the to the 204 00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:57,030 to the left, which is consistent with the change in the angle of 205 00:13:57,030 --> 00:14:00,360 the camera, which means the direction, the camera is 206 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,870 tracking the object. So that's all consistent with a camera 207 00:14:03,870 --> 00:14:06,630 losing lock, no longer tracking the object, the object continues 208 00:14:06,630 --> 00:14:09,390 a little bit to the left, it requires lock and then it 209 00:14:09,390 --> 00:14:13,260 continues tracking it. And then finally, in the last instance 210 00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:16,140 when it doesn't require it, which just ended because it's 211 00:14:16,140 --> 00:14:21,210 moved a bit too far because Chad Underwood has been to rapidly 212 00:14:21,210 --> 00:14:24,630 cycling through these various different zoom levels and camera 213 00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:28,980 types. It simply continues off to the side. There's also a 214 00:14:28,980 --> 00:14:33,090 change from 1X to 2X zoom, which which visually exaggerates it 215 00:14:33,090 --> 00:14:36,720 but that's really nothing to do with the loss of lock. The loss 216 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,180 of light comes from the actual physical change within the 217 00:14:39,180 --> 00:14:42,660 camera itself between wide and narrow. So that's what I think 218 00:14:42,660 --> 00:14:43,230 is happening. 219 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:48,510 Robert Powell: So in terms of losing block, the this camera is 220 00:14:48,510 --> 00:14:52,890 not losing lock constantly. It's not even losing lock multiple 221 00:14:52,890 --> 00:14:56,730 times. It only loses lock one time. And that's at the end of 222 00:14:56,730 --> 00:15:00,750 the video. What you're saying when the, when the bracket comes 223 00:15:00,750 --> 00:15:04,260 in and out. That is not losing lock during those timeframes. So 224 00:15:04,260 --> 00:15:05,190 that not correct. 225 00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:08,730 John Greenewald: Well, Robert, can you explain that to me? No, 226 00:15:08,730 --> 00:15:10,950 no, no, I want you to finish. But can you explain when it 227 00:15:10,950 --> 00:15:12,600 does, because because Mick was 228 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,930 Robert Powell: It's doing it, it's it, the system is 229 00:15:15,930 --> 00:15:22,020 constantly keeping the target in the center. So it's, it's 230 00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:26,460 smoothing out, because there's a slight movement. So it's 231 00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:29,610 recentering. So it's just constantly adjusting. It's not 232 00:15:29,610 --> 00:15:34,050 losing lock, it has lock. Okay. I mean, if this thing was 233 00:15:34,050 --> 00:15:38,250 losing, why, what do you think happens in a war, when you've 234 00:15:38,250 --> 00:15:42,900 got another aircraft in that, you can't lose lock constantly? 235 00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:44,820 Mick West: The problem here is that you see it losing lock. You 236 00:15:44,820 --> 00:15:48,420 see the bars widen. And the bars widening means that it has lost 237 00:15:48,420 --> 00:15:51,030 luck. And it is trying to reacquire it by widening the 238 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,920 Robert Powell: That does not mean it has lost lock 239 00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:51,270 search areas. 240 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:54,600 Mick West: what does it mean? 241 00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:58,470 Robert Powell: Let me quote to you from a document. And so 242 00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:59,700 we've resolved this. 243 00:16:07,170 --> 00:16:08,490 Okay, this is, 244 00:16:08,730 --> 00:16:11,400 John Greenewald: Is this from the SCU report, just so I I'm 245 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,480 gonna link it in 246 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,740 Robert Powell: No, this is not this is not from the SCU report. 247 00:16:17,970 --> 00:16:21,180 This is a, I'll give you the quotation from the document on 248 00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:24,630 it. This is from a tutorial on electro optical infrared 249 00:16:24,630 --> 00:16:30,570 systems, from the Institute for Defense analysis. And, and so 250 00:16:30,570 --> 00:16:33,360 I'll just quote "after the target is acquired the tracking 251 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,320 system walks on to it and maintains line of sight 252 00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:41,610 autonomously a feedback control loop, the track loop, 253 00:16:41,940 --> 00:16:46,530 continuously adjust the gimbal to keep the target in the center 254 00:16:46,530 --> 00:16:48,120 of the sensors field of view" 255 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:49,150 Mick West: Sure. 256 00:16:49,180 --> 00:16:52,120 Robert Powell: So it's not losing lock is it goes to say, 257 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,200 "the sensor generates a new video stream, the process 258 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:01,780 repeats", it keeps refining what it's looking at, it's not that 259 00:17:01,780 --> 00:17:03,160 it's loss lock. 260 00:17:03,450 --> 00:17:05,820 Mick West: Right. But that doesn't really comport with what 261 00:17:05,820 --> 00:17:09,780 we see though, what we see is the the object not remaining in 262 00:17:09,780 --> 00:17:12,150 the center of the screen, in fact, the object moves away from 263 00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:15,600 the center of the screen. And then we see the the bars widen, 264 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,150 which is essentially the search area because it's looking for 265 00:17:18,150 --> 00:17:21,120 it, if it knew where it was, it would have kept it exactly in 266 00:17:21,120 --> 00:17:22,680 the center of the screen. But it does not 267 00:17:23,020 --> 00:17:25,300 Robert Powell: Mick, it's like any other piece of equipment, 268 00:17:25,570 --> 00:17:29,800 you constantly refine because you've got a moving target. So 269 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,980 your equipment, you're not going to wait intil you lose lock 270 00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:36,070 you're constantly measuring, you've got it in the center of 271 00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:38,800 your screen, it drifts a little bit, you widen a little bit, 272 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,340 bring it back into the center of the screen. That is not. And I 273 00:17:42,340 --> 00:17:46,660 just, Mick, I just gave you a quote from a document that I 274 00:17:46,660 --> 00:17:50,860 think answers the question. If you have a different document 275 00:17:50,860 --> 00:17:52,030 that you'd like to quote from? 276 00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:53,980 Mick West: No, that, the document is fine, but I agree 277 00:17:53,980 --> 00:17:56,800 with what the document says but the document, if you take what's 278 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,400 in the document, then what we would expect to see would be the 279 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,590 object staying exactly rock solid in the middle of the 280 00:18:02,590 --> 00:18:04,210 screen because it doesn't lose lock. 281 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:08,080 John Greenewald: Let me ask you on this debate, and and and, 282 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,380 Robert, I know we divert, we kind of diverted from your 283 00:18:11,380 --> 00:18:13,840 answer before. And I do want you to have the opportunity to 284 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,620 finish that. But one last question I would have for both 285 00:18:17,620 --> 00:18:22,570 of you. And Robert, if you could quickly just answer this the 286 00:18:22,570 --> 00:18:26,350 fighter pilots that you both have interviewed. What are they 287 00:18:26,350 --> 00:18:29,560 saying about the lock on this video? Did you specifically say 288 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:35,620 is that a losing lock scenario? Is that wrong to say it's losing 289 00:18:35,620 --> 00:18:39,040 lock? I mean, have you either one of you specifically asked 290 00:18:39,130 --> 00:18:42,400 the fighter jet pilots either involved in this incident or 291 00:18:42,430 --> 00:18:44,740 Mick West: I haven't actually managed to interview any of the 292 00:18:44,830 --> 00:18:47,590 pilots. So I will have to defer to Robert on that. 293 00:18:47,740 --> 00:18:50,260 Robert Powell: I interviewed James Slaight. We did not talk 294 00:18:50,260 --> 00:18:54,700 about that video because he was not the pilot that took it was 295 00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:58,720 taken by Underwood. And at the time I had no reason to ask 296 00:18:58,720 --> 00:18:59,710 James slate about 297 00:18:59,740 --> 00:19:02,350 John Greenewald: I got you. I mean I just be curious to hear 298 00:19:02,380 --> 00:19:04,720 you know somebody who's flying in the Jets. And that's not to 299 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,720 take away from either of you either just just to say Hey, is 300 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,790 this losing lock? Or is this a adjustment? 301 00:19:09,790 --> 00:19:12,730 Robert Powell: No, I think that's a... It's always good to 302 00:19:12,730 --> 00:19:15,910 get an opinion from the guys who actually do it. 303 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,780 John Greenewald: Yeah. So so let me let let's have you finish the 304 00:19:18,780 --> 00:19:21,000 thought because I don't think we're going to find common 305 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,820 ground on the losing lock here. We can go back to it after but 306 00:19:23,820 --> 00:19:25,950 Robert, I want you to be able to finish the rest of your thought 307 00:19:25,950 --> 00:19:26,310 before 308 00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:30,180 Robert Powell: so, so for, so now going back to Mick's belief 309 00:19:30,180 --> 00:19:37,350 that this is a jet. If you believe it's a jet then you need 310 00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:41,100 to do the calculations to establish it. This makes sense. 311 00:19:41,490 --> 00:19:46,110 Mick indicated he believes it's an F-18 right. An F-18 is 60 312 00:19:46,110 --> 00:19:49,800 feet in size, we know the approximate distance to the 313 00:19:49,830 --> 00:19:52,950 object. You should be able to calculate the magnitude that 314 00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:58,530 makes sense. Okay, so for starters, if you watch the video 315 00:19:58,530 --> 00:20:02,670 you see a constant type of object, whether it's in TV mode, 316 00:20:02,850 --> 00:20:03,990 or an IR mode. 317 00:20:04,590 --> 00:20:05,400 Mick West: That's not true. 318 00:20:07,860 --> 00:20:09,750 Robert Powell: Well, let me finish what I'm saying. Please 319 00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:12,270 make sure I didn't interrupt you. 320 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,420 Mick West: No, no. But if you start off with something that's 321 00:20:15,420 --> 00:20:16,860 wrong, and everything that follows 322 00:20:16,860 --> 00:20:19,080 Robert Powell: Well, we won't get anywhere. Because I could 323 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,790 have interrupted you multiple times. 324 00:20:20,940 --> 00:20:21,780 Mick West: Okay, go ahead. 325 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:27,660 Robert Powell: Right. Okay. So you've got a visual object that 326 00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:31,260 doesn't look that different, whether it's in the IR or in TV 327 00:20:31,260 --> 00:20:35,580 mode, in terms of size in differentiation, of what you see 328 00:20:35,670 --> 00:20:40,950 of the object. Okay, so Mick indicated this is an F-18. 329 00:20:42,780 --> 00:20:47,130 For you to only see the lights they F-18's got to be moving 330 00:20:47,130 --> 00:20:51,600 away from you. But it's moving, but making the case so is that 331 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,040 they tend to moving at an angle. Once you begin to move at an 332 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,810 angle, and you're not looking dead and dead on on the engine, 333 00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:04,590 you're not going to obscure the entire plane, you'll begin to 334 00:21:04,590 --> 00:21:06,810 see the wings of the plane. 335 00:21:07,950 --> 00:21:12,330 Now, Mick indicated this was an F-18 team, if you look at the 336 00:21:12,330 --> 00:21:19,230 angular size of that object, then an F-18 team would be 20 337 00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:24,930 nautical miles away. This camera is capable of identifying 338 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:31,680 aircraft up to 40, not up to beyond 40 nautical miles. So 339 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,800 that puts it at half of the distance of this cameras 340 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,900 capabilities. So that argues against this being an F 18. 341 00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:45,810 Furthermore, this is an a military operating area, they 342 00:21:45,810 --> 00:21:50,670 were about to have an exercise where you are going to have jets 343 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:51,900 all over the place. 344 00:21:53,220 --> 00:21:57,840 There is no way a Carrier Strike Group, which controls the 345 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,520 airspace for hundreds of miles is going to allow another jet 346 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,420 into their area that they don't know about. Now, this is one of 347 00:22:06,420 --> 00:22:12,570 their own F-18s things, then you have to assume that the pilot 348 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,140 doesn't know what he's doing, because they immediately, his 349 00:22:16,140 --> 00:22:20,370 sensors immediately tells him that he's looking at an F-18. He 350 00:22:20,370 --> 00:22:27,750 doesn't have to guess about it. So to argue that this is an FA 351 00:22:27,780 --> 00:22:35,370 pain to me, is thatthe worst of all possible arguments, maybe 352 00:22:35,910 --> 00:22:38,910 they try to argue a jet I would have said it was a Chinese or 353 00:22:38,910 --> 00:22:45,750 Russian. But F-18, that the pilot would know. Because he 354 00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:51,600 would get a sense reading from his IFF system? No, no way. 355 00:22:51,660 --> 00:22:54,840 John Greenewald: So Mick let me let me bring you back in. Oh, 356 00:22:55,170 --> 00:23:00,090 are you is your standpoint? Are you? Have you concluded that 357 00:23:00,090 --> 00:23:01,620 this is an F 18? Or is that 358 00:23:01,650 --> 00:23:02,610 Mick West: Oh, no, no. 359 00:23:03,390 --> 00:23:05,040 John Greenewald: But that's your best guess. 360 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,800 Mick West: Yeah, the problem with this video is that it's 361 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,370 very, very fuzzy. And we talk about like the amazing 362 00:23:10,370 --> 00:23:13,130 capabilities of the FLIR system and how it should be able to 363 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,730 resolve things, but it's clearly not resolving whatever is 364 00:23:16,730 --> 00:23:19,910 actually here. So it kind of doesn't really matter what it 365 00:23:19,910 --> 00:23:23,900 is, we still have the issue of it being a very out of focus 366 00:23:23,930 --> 00:23:27,860 image and a very blurry image, which, which kind of indicates 367 00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:32,630 that either we're looking at a a fuzzy object, which seems very 368 00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:37,430 unlikely or this, the camera is not properly in focus. 369 00:23:38,930 --> 00:23:43,340 Now, the, I forgot what I was going to say with Robert's 370 00:23:43,340 --> 00:23:47,480 points, but the the shape of the object is not really consistent 371 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,080 between the two things between the TV mode and the IR mode, you 372 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,750 know, it looks like kind of like an oblong shape, you know, you 373 00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:56,240 could you could roughly say you could you could fit a Tic-Tac 374 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,540 shape to it, like this, this iPhone case I'm holding up here, 375 00:24:00,050 --> 00:24:03,020 or you can fit any number of things to it because it's it's 376 00:24:03,020 --> 00:24:08,000 kind of odd shaped. At some points, it kind of looks a 377 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,750 little bit like more like a peanut shape than than other 378 00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:14,720 things if you if you if you skim through the video, you kind of 379 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,030 see it, it kind of seemed to rotate a little bit, which I 380 00:24:17,030 --> 00:24:19,730 think is because it's moving across the screen and to the 381 00:24:19,730 --> 00:24:22,610 left. And if you look at the difference between the the 382 00:24:22,610 --> 00:24:26,390 visible lights mode and the the IR mode, it's it's kind of got a 383 00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:30,260 bulge, one end in the TV mode, but the bulge is at the other 384 00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:33,740 end in the eye on bird which I think is consistent with where 385 00:24:33,740 --> 00:24:38,150 the engines would be on the right hand side. Because it's 386 00:24:38,150 --> 00:24:42,080 moving to the left, we see a glow from the engines. Now at 387 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,270 the very start of the video which is very interesting. We 388 00:24:44,270 --> 00:24:47,630 see something very strange, something that looks nothing at 389 00:24:47,630 --> 00:24:49,940 all like the rest of the video and people don't talk about this 390 00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:53,390 very often, which is which I find odd. We see a star shape. 391 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,290 We say something which is just a glare and infrared glare, which 392 00:24:57,290 --> 00:25:00,560 would indicate to me that at that point in the video we have 393 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,010 a situation and what Robert was talking about where the plane is 394 00:25:04,010 --> 00:25:06,110 flying directly away. And you're kind of looking at this 395 00:25:06,110 --> 00:25:09,770 tailpipe, and you're just seeing this infrared glare. Now a bit 396 00:25:09,770 --> 00:25:12,980 later is moving further away, because we're switching between 397 00:25:12,980 --> 00:25:15,110 the two motors, we don't actually see this transition. 398 00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:20,180 And we just see that glare at the right hand side. And the 399 00:25:20,180 --> 00:25:22,700 glare is actually there, it's kind of difficult to see because 400 00:25:22,700 --> 00:25:28,610 this terrible resolution video, but I have no real reason to 401 00:25:28,610 --> 00:25:30,860 doubt that an F-18 would fit 402 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,900 Now that Robert raised the issue of: surely we would know it's an 403 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:41,930 F 18. And yes, we would. But I talked to Kevin Day about this. 404 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,480 And he said that not only were they they weren't getting ready 405 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,360 for an exercise at that moment, they were actually in the middle 406 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:50,330 of canceling the exercise. And they had a large number of 407 00:25:50,330 --> 00:25:54,560 planes in the air at that time. And the situation was rather 408 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,620 chaotic. And these are his exact words. This is what he said, it 409 00:25:57,620 --> 00:26:00,200 was chaotic. They had planes in the air, he was canceling the 410 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,250 exercise bringing everybody back in. So it kind of makes sense 411 00:26:04,250 --> 00:26:07,520 that for a few seconds, somebody might not know exactly where a 412 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,520 particular plane was and where it was later because they were 413 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,070 all turning around and going into different places from where 414 00:26:13,070 --> 00:26:16,670 they were originally going to. So I think what happens here is 415 00:26:16,670 --> 00:26:19,160 that Chad Underwood pointed his camera in a particular 416 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:24,290 direction, happened to lock on to one of the other FA-18s that 417 00:26:24,290 --> 00:26:27,080 was in the air at that time, during this chaotic time, during 418 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,650 the cancelling of the exercise. it locked on for it for a while 419 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,000 he didn't recognize it immediately. Because he's 420 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,920 perhaps because he's looking out for UFOs. Because Fravor has had 421 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,040 this encounter before, which we'll talk about. And he cycled 422 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,810 through all these camera things. And he essentially just lost 423 00:26:47,810 --> 00:26:50,750 lock of it, lock on it because he was cycling through the 424 00:26:50,750 --> 00:26:55,490 cameras too quickly. And then he lost sight of it didn't get 425 00:26:55,490 --> 00:26:58,610 sight of it again. And he probably would have seen it 426 00:26:58,610 --> 00:27:00,980 later because it was one of the other F-18 teams, but now he 427 00:27:00,980 --> 00:27:03,770 recognized it as an FAA team. And I think that's what's 428 00:27:03,770 --> 00:27:04,190 happened. 429 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,220 Robert Powell: So Mick, so you're saying that? Because 430 00:27:07,220 --> 00:27:11,960 there was an exercise, an F-18 was kind of lost. 431 00:27:12,420 --> 00:27:13,830 Mick West: No, no 432 00:27:13,890 --> 00:27:17,430 Robert Powell: Let me finish. And so when Underwood mistakes 433 00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:22,260 this F-18, for starters, this was at 3pm. So this was after 434 00:27:22,260 --> 00:27:26,130 the exercise have already been canceled, many hours after the 435 00:27:26,130 --> 00:27:29,790 exercise being canceled. So there's there's not going to be 436 00:27:29,970 --> 00:27:34,200 F-18s of unknown origin just flying around within that area. 437 00:27:34,530 --> 00:27:37,650 But more importantly, it doesn't matter that it was chaotic. wars 438 00:27:37,650 --> 00:27:43,230 are chaotic. And don't you believe that our Navy jets are 439 00:27:43,230 --> 00:27:47,550 capable of identifying a friendly F-18 during a war? 440 00:27:47,580 --> 00:27:49,110 That's much more chaotic than yet? 441 00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:51,030 Mick West: No, not all the time, in fact sometimes 442 00:27:51,030 --> 00:27:52,410 Robert Powell: Let me finish it. Did I interrupt you? 443 00:27:52,410 --> 00:27:53,850 Mick West: I'm sorry, I thought you asked me a question. 444 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,300 Robert Powell: Okay. So, so he's got an IFF system that 445 00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:03,620 identifies all friendly aircraft, right. So it doesn't 446 00:28:03,620 --> 00:28:06,950 matter how chaotic it is. He knows what he's looking at 447 00:28:07,010 --> 00:28:13,370 looking at. Right. So that's, that your argument to me, 448 00:28:13,970 --> 00:28:15,560 doesn't, isn't even close to 449 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,050 Mick West: well, you say that during war time. You know, we 450 00:28:19,050 --> 00:28:21,360 can identify everything perfectly, which obviously isn't 451 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:25,290 the case because friendly fire is a thing people will get 452 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,770 people get killed. airliners have been shut down by by 453 00:28:28,770 --> 00:28:32,160 accident. Planes have shot each other, planes have dropped their 454 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,150 bombs on friendly troops. Mistakes made, and mistakes are 455 00:28:36,150 --> 00:28:41,220 made. And surprisingly often and much more serious consequences 456 00:28:41,220 --> 00:28:44,790 come out and mistakes being made. So I find the idea that 457 00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:48,600 Underwood not being able to identify a plane for a few 458 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,560 seconds not to be unreasonable. And your first point about the 459 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,890 exercise being canceled hours before it's been directly 460 00:28:55,890 --> 00:28:59,400 contradicted. by Kevin Day when I interviewed him, he said they 461 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,760 were right in the middle of the exercise. So are you saying that 462 00:29:02,790 --> 00:29:04,320 Kevin Day is misremembering? 463 00:29:05,490 --> 00:29:08,640 Robert Powell: Yes. Mick, or you are you did not understand what 464 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,140 Kevin Day told you. The exercise was occurring in the late 465 00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:19,230 morning when Kevin requested to the captain of the ship, that 466 00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:23,460 F-18s teams be scramble because they were getting ready to do an 467 00:29:23,460 --> 00:29:27,240 exercise. They were in the process of beginning it. So he 468 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:33,300 scrambled two F-18s, already in the air, to the point they got 469 00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:36,960 to that point when they then, and we won't go through all that 470 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,520 happened, but then they fly back to the Nimitz, right. And then 471 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,350 another pair of F-18s leaves the Nimitz, it's already been 472 00:29:46,350 --> 00:29:53,910 canceled, and it flies to the south. So there there was no 473 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,330 exercise going on at that period of time. 474 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,930 Mick West: Well unfortunately that directly contradicted by 475 00:30:00,930 --> 00:30:02,520 what Kevin Day says. 476 00:30:02,910 --> 00:30:06,300 Robert Powell: No, I was the first person to ever interview 477 00:30:06,300 --> 00:30:11,490 Kevin Fay. So I think if anyone knows what Kevin Day said, I 478 00:30:11,490 --> 00:30:12,300 would be me. 479 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:19,710 Well, yes, perhaps so but I know what he told me. So and this is, 480 00:30:19,710 --> 00:30:22,530 you know, this is something that we have a record of that he 481 00:30:22,530 --> 00:30:25,350 actually said this, that there was an exercise going on at that 482 00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:28,950 moment. So I think this is perhaps a broader issue 483 00:30:28,950 --> 00:30:30,270 An exercise was about to go on. 484 00:30:30,570 --> 00:30:32,160 Mick West: He said, he was actually in the process of 485 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,550 canceling the exercise at the time that Underwood was taking 486 00:30:35,550 --> 00:30:38,490 his video. That is what he's told me. 487 00:30:38,580 --> 00:30:40,980 Robert Powell: It was, it was canceled prior to that. 488 00:30:41,490 --> 00:30:44,400 Mick West: Okay, I'm perhaps it was, but now we have conflicting 489 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,300 accounts. We have Kevin Day one and Kevin Day two. And so which 490 00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:49,170 one are we to believe? 491 00:30:50,470 --> 00:30:52,960 John Greenewald: And I think that this is actually a segue of 492 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,050 where I wanted to go. So you both did this beautifully of 493 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,840 witness testimony. Now, we don't have to get away from the video 494 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,040 fully. But obviously, we have a conflict here, make heard one 495 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,790 thing and and and, you know, we can after the show, you guys can 496 00:31:06,790 --> 00:31:11,260 pull it up, and I will be more than happy to post both of your 497 00:31:11,590 --> 00:31:14,230 either transcripts, or articles or references, or whatever you 498 00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:16,840 need. That's not a problem. So you guys, just email me those. 499 00:31:17,020 --> 00:31:20,590 And I will put them in the show notes for this episode. But what 500 00:31:20,590 --> 00:31:24,100 I wanted to get into was witness testimony. Mick you are talking 501 00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:28,390 about dissecting the video and the shape and we don't know this 502 00:31:28,390 --> 00:31:32,140 or that. But you didn't make reference to the witness 503 00:31:32,140 --> 00:31:37,270 testimony that goes along with it. So this question goes to 504 00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:42,310 both of you. Can we talk to the audience about the value of 505 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,430 witness testimony that even though the video may not give 506 00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:51,160 you 100% definitive answer, when you couple in a witness, and 507 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,100 they are adding in, hey, we couldn't identify this thing? 508 00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:57,430 Or, you know, with my experience, it wasn't their 509 00:31:58,150 --> 00:32:02,770 radar operators couldn't couldn't peg an ID on it? What 510 00:32:02,770 --> 00:32:05,680 value is there in that? Because in your explanations, it seems 511 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,080 like those are being dismissed? We'll start with Mick and then 512 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,190 Robert, I want you to answer. 513 00:32:10,170 --> 00:32:13,710 Mick West: Sure. Well, I think what we have here is a number of 514 00:32:13,710 --> 00:32:19,710 stories, that that vary in the telling, and have evolved over 515 00:32:19,710 --> 00:32:24,450 time and vary by individual. And I think you have to really look 516 00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:27,780 at the big picture here, you get a look at the entire thing. Look 517 00:32:27,780 --> 00:32:30,660 at all these different people giving various accounts of 518 00:32:30,660 --> 00:32:34,710 things. And if people give accounts, which are consistent 519 00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:39,030 and are independently consistent, then that is a, that 520 00:32:39,030 --> 00:32:41,130 can be a very valuable thing when you're doing an 521 00:32:41,130 --> 00:32:45,030 investigation. But when people give the individual accounts, 522 00:32:45,030 --> 00:32:48,060 especially if their recollections over a long time 523 00:32:48,060 --> 00:32:51,840 ago, and especially if those accounts don't actually line up 524 00:32:51,870 --> 00:32:57,210 with with one another, then that becomes less and less valuable 525 00:32:57,270 --> 00:33:04,110 as actual evidence. And we look at some of the things that we 526 00:33:04,110 --> 00:33:08,550 rely on for eyewitness accounts. The big one, obviously, is 527 00:33:08,580 --> 00:33:12,060 commander Fravor encounter, there was Commander Fravor. 528 00:33:12,090 --> 00:33:15,570 There's Jim Slaight, there's the female pilots who I will call 529 00:33:15,570 --> 00:33:19,200 "Source" because that was the name given to her in one of the 530 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,370 reports. And there was another, another WSO. 531 00:33:24,510 --> 00:33:28,620 Their accounts don't exactly match. In fact, there's quite 532 00:33:28,620 --> 00:33:32,550 significant differences between the two. If you look at things 533 00:33:32,550 --> 00:33:38,400 like what When did they originally see these, this this 534 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,120 object that they saw over the water, you saw it in the little 535 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,720 recreation that that was shown that there was a little Tic Tac 536 00:33:45,810 --> 00:33:49,740 over the water? Now, Commander Fravor says that he saw it 537 00:33:50,610 --> 00:33:53,970 hovering over this disturbance in the water. And it was making 538 00:33:53,970 --> 00:33:59,400 movements up down left and right, in an unusual way. But 539 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,420 Source who is viewing it from a different different angle tells 540 00:34:03,420 --> 00:34:06,690 us that he can move very rapidly in a straight line across the 541 00:34:06,690 --> 00:34:12,300 disturbance in the water at 300, 200 to 300 knots. And so we've 542 00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:15,390 got two accounts, which are radically different. Now you 543 00:34:15,390 --> 00:34:17,700 might say they're kind of the same, in essence, but are they 544 00:34:17,700 --> 00:34:20,280 really though they're actually very different. And perhaps 545 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:21,990 they're different because they're being viewed from 546 00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:24,990 different viewpoints. Or perhaps they're different because they 547 00:34:24,990 --> 00:34:28,320 are different recollections of the same thing. 548 00:34:29,410 --> 00:34:34,810 And I think this idea of eyewitnesses matching up doesn't 549 00:34:34,810 --> 00:34:37,630 really hold out in this case, because there a large number of 550 00:34:37,630 --> 00:34:40,900 differences. Not only do the eyewitnesses not agree with each 551 00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:43,990 other, they don't agree with the written reports that were 552 00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:50,350 produced a long time at. The official Event Summary or the 553 00:34:50,350 --> 00:34:56,050 report describes the object as simply being lost in the haze, 554 00:34:56,980 --> 00:35:06,400 that kind of really means that they can visually track it all 555 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,520 the way until they disappeared near or far off in the distance 556 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,210 in the haze, which is radically different from the instantaneous 557 00:35:13,210 --> 00:35:19,540 disappearing, that Fravor has later come to describe. So I 558 00:35:19,540 --> 00:35:22,810 think these accounts have varied over time, they've actually 559 00:35:22,810 --> 00:35:26,650 changed over time. And they vary a lot between individual and 560 00:35:26,650 --> 00:35:30,100 they, they don't really match what we see. And we don't really 561 00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:34,720 have eyewitness accounts that actually match the video, 562 00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:38,530 because all we have the video is the guy who took the video was 563 00:35:38,530 --> 00:35:41,740 watching the video screen as he took it. So we don't have any 564 00:35:41,740 --> 00:35:44,560 corroborating eyewitness accounts for the movements of 565 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:45,070 the object. 566 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,460 John Greenewald: So a lot of contradiction. So obviously, in 567 00:35:47,460 --> 00:35:50,370 a scientific standpoint, that's going to be challenging. Robert, 568 00:35:50,370 --> 00:35:53,820 let me ask you, the first part of that, which was talked to me 569 00:35:53,820 --> 00:35:57,810 about the value of witnesses and your study. But then did you see 570 00:35:57,810 --> 00:36:00,360 contradictions between the witnesses? And how did you deal 571 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:00,840 with that? 572 00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:04,590 Robert Powell: Yeah, that's an important part because you do 573 00:36:04,590 --> 00:36:07,950 lose information from witnesses over time, right. And once 574 00:36:07,950 --> 00:36:11,760 witnesses are exposed to the media, and exposed to other 575 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,440 witnesses, their story start to, they pick up bits and pieces of 576 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,250 other stories, right. So what you have to look for is the key 577 00:36:20,250 --> 00:36:25,020 information, not, not the minutia, and the details of it, 578 00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:27,090 you look at for this key information. So I'll give you a 579 00:36:27,090 --> 00:36:32,100 couple of good examples. First example. And in both of these, 580 00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:35,700 John, I think are important because in our report, we've 581 00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:38,460 been talking about the video and we have not talked about the 582 00:36:38,460 --> 00:36:42,960 specific accelerations based on the witness testimony. So the 583 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:48,150 very first one is where Kevin Day, and I interviewed Kevin Day 584 00:36:48,390 --> 00:36:54,120 on January 2018. Now this is why it's important. For example, 585 00:36:55,170 --> 00:36:59,820 Mick probably interviewed him either this year or sometime in 586 00:36:59,820 --> 00:37:04,650 the middle of 2020, almost two and a half years after I 587 00:37:04,650 --> 00:37:08,250 interviewed Kevin day. Why is that important? Because I 588 00:37:08,250 --> 00:37:13,290 interviewed him before he was ever exposed to social media. I 589 00:37:13,290 --> 00:37:19,620 interviewed him before he and Gary Voorhis began talking with 590 00:37:19,620 --> 00:37:24,930 each other. Right? So when I interviewed Kevin Day, I asked 591 00:37:24,930 --> 00:37:29,310 him, How long did it take the object to move? He said, point 592 00:37:29,310 --> 00:37:32,790 seven, eight seconds. So a lot of you know, your audience has 593 00:37:32,790 --> 00:37:33,750 probably heard that. 594 00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:38,640 That's over a huge distance that it moved in point seven, eight 595 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,150 seconds, which is where we got our, our extreme acceleration 596 00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:46,140 numbers. And we'll use error bars. In other words, we said 597 00:37:46,140 --> 00:37:49,230 what if Kevin day was wrong? What if it was two seconds? What 598 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,830 was five? So what are those six seconds? And he thought it was 599 00:37:52,830 --> 00:37:56,250 point seven, eight, right? The acceleration numbers are still 600 00:37:56,250 --> 00:38:02,670 extreme. So then I interviewed Gary Voorhis two, no, three 601 00:38:02,670 --> 00:38:05,700 months later, in April of 2018. 602 00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:11,480 Before I ever asked him, How long did it take this object to 603 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:16,670 move when you picked it up? I asked him Do you know, Kevin 604 00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:23,540 day? His response was it he did not know Kevin Day? And he said, 605 00:38:23,540 --> 00:38:28,250 but let me look in my album from the USS Prince. So I flipped 606 00:38:28,250 --> 00:38:31,610 through the USS Princeton looks for the name Kevin Day. And he 607 00:38:31,610 --> 00:38:36,650 says, Oh, yes, I do know Kevin Day. I remember him now. He was 608 00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:41,720 a very sharp, sharp, Senior Chief. Why did I do that? I was 609 00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:47,600 trying to establish that these two guys had not been talking 610 00:38:47,630 --> 00:38:51,890 about how long it took for this object to move in radar. So then 611 00:38:51,890 --> 00:38:55,880 I asked Gary, Boris, how long did it take this object to drop 612 00:38:55,910 --> 00:39:01,550 from 28,000 feet down to sea level? His response to me was, 613 00:39:02,060 --> 00:39:06,800 "how long did it take you to think of that question?" So in 614 00:39:06,860 --> 00:39:10,940 other words, he's indicating within a split second. Right. So 615 00:39:10,940 --> 00:39:16,250 I've got two independent corroborating witnesses. Now, do 616 00:39:16,250 --> 00:39:20,090 I? Am I going to throw that out? Because I think these two guys 617 00:39:20,090 --> 00:39:24,050 are idiots or something? No. I go to Kevin Day and I asked for 618 00:39:24,050 --> 00:39:30,350 his his report from his captain of the ship. He was rated is an 619 00:39:30,380 --> 00:39:34,760 "outstanding, excellent" on his report. And the captain of the 620 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,800 ship said "he is my number one Senior Chief Officer, a 621 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,210 recognized expert in air defense, his impact within the 622 00:39:44,210 --> 00:39:48,410 Nimitz Strike Group has been phenomenal." So you're talking 623 00:39:48,410 --> 00:39:52,250 about a Senior Chief here, who was responsible not just for the 624 00:39:52,250 --> 00:39:55,880 USS Princeton, but for the defense of the entire Strike 625 00:39:55,910 --> 00:39:56,420 Group. 626 00:39:57,260 --> 00:40:00,380 All right, so there's one point with witnesses. Now let's move 627 00:40:00,380 --> 00:40:06,140 to the other critical point, when the pilots realized how 628 00:40:06,140 --> 00:40:09,920 quickly that object disappeared, right? And we calculated 629 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:15,350 accelerations very simply, you know, at what point an object 630 00:40:15,350 --> 00:40:18,470 will disappear from my side based on whether you had 20-20, 631 00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:23,750 20-40, 20-80, what have you the size of the object, and the 632 00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:28,550 distance it has to travel to disappear from sight. Okay. So 633 00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:32,810 now I've got two witnesses. I've got Fravor, who's engaging the 634 00:40:32,810 --> 00:40:37,280 object as it's coming up, he's going down. I've got Slaight, 635 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:43,040 and the woman pilot who Mick mentioned who's up higher, and 636 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,060 they're looking down at what's going on. So they're looking 637 00:40:47,060 --> 00:40:48,440 from two different angles. 638 00:40:49,890 --> 00:40:53,850 In the case of Fravor, he indicates the object disappears 639 00:40:53,910 --> 00:41:00,450 from his site in one to maybe two seconds. Furthermore, he's 640 00:41:00,450 --> 00:41:05,490 very explicit in saying, if you go to an air show, and you see 641 00:41:05,490 --> 00:41:09,720 an aircraft go by at Mach two, how long it takes you to 642 00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:13,350 disappear. And he indicates seven to eight seconds, which is 643 00:41:13,350 --> 00:41:19,140 about right. So in his mind, it's clear to him how quickly 644 00:41:19,140 --> 00:41:23,460 this object disappeared. So when I interviewed Slaight, I asked 645 00:41:23,460 --> 00:41:27,810 him the same question, how long did it take that object to 646 00:41:27,810 --> 00:41:32,160 disappear from your sight? He said, I was watching the object 647 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,120 and it was just like someone shot it out of a gun. It was 648 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,840 gone. So I have got two different guys. And who are 649 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:46,170 these guns? The commander, David Favor, of that entire Squadron. 650 00:41:46,830 --> 00:41:51,420 He's a US Naval Academy graduate, 3500 hours flight 651 00:41:51,420 --> 00:41:56,220 time, 16 years experience, a Navy Top Gun graduate, a 652 00:41:56,220 --> 00:42:00,450 Bachelors of Science in oceanography. The other guy, 653 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,110 James Slaight is number two, he's the lieutenant commander of 654 00:42:04,110 --> 00:42:08,730 that Squadron. He's also a United States Naval Academy 655 00:42:08,730 --> 00:42:12,840 graduate, a BS in political science and a master's in 656 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:18,060 military studies. 2700 hours of flight time, there is absolutely 657 00:42:18,060 --> 00:42:23,940 no reason for me not to believe that this object disappeared 658 00:42:24,270 --> 00:42:28,440 within a matter of just one to two seconds. But when we did the 659 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,550 report, we even said, What if it disappeared? What if these guys 660 00:42:32,580 --> 00:42:36,150 weren't as good as we thought? What if their eyesight was 2040? 661 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,580 What if the object was 60? feet? What if it was only 15 feet? And 662 00:42:41,580 --> 00:42:47,070 what if, when it disappeared? It took five seconds. Still, the G 663 00:42:47,070 --> 00:42:51,480 forces calculated are well beyond anything that we're able 664 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,890 to currently manufacture today. So you can't just throw away 665 00:42:55,890 --> 00:43:00,240 witness testimony because I it's a witness. It's anecdotal, but 666 00:43:00,300 --> 00:43:01,770 that doesn't wash. 667 00:43:01,890 --> 00:43:04,740 John Greenewald: So So Mick, when I understand your argument, 668 00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:08,610 when witnesses just don't cooperate, but when they do, 669 00:43:08,850 --> 00:43:09,900 what do you do with that? 670 00:43:10,860 --> 00:43:13,080 Mick West: Well, I think you need to look at the what was 671 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,590 actually said here, and how it corroborates with various other 672 00:43:16,590 --> 00:43:21,240 accounts that we have the event summary, which was written at 673 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:26,520 the time, which says that, from both pilots perspective, the 674 00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:29,880 object was simply lost in the mist. And then if we take the 675 00:43:30,180 --> 00:43:35,610 the statements that Robert just gave the one pilot, or one, 676 00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:41,070 Slaight, I believe was was, was the the WSO in Fravor's plane, 677 00:43:41,070 --> 00:43:42,090 was that correct? Yeah. 678 00:43:43,140 --> 00:43:46,830 He thought that it vanished instantly. Whereas reverse, it 679 00:43:46,890 --> 00:43:49,740 went away in one to two seconds. So we have somewhat of a 680 00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:53,190 different recollection there. But I think beyond that, we have 681 00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:56,310 to look to other possible explanations for this apparent 682 00:43:56,340 --> 00:44:00,450 high speed. And one that I've put out there is that it may 683 00:44:00,450 --> 00:44:04,110 have been a misjudging a distance, which caused them to 684 00:44:04,110 --> 00:44:06,900 think that it was moving a lot faster than it was because they 685 00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:10,440 thought it was twice as big as it was, and hence twice as far 686 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,130 away. And so when they flew towards it, it flew past them. 687 00:44:14,130 --> 00:44:17,520 But from their perspective, well, it didn't actually fly 688 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,520 past them, they flew past it. But from their perspective, it 689 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,490 looked like it accelerated towards them. But before we get 690 00:44:23,490 --> 00:44:25,560 into that, I just want to kind of touch on something else 691 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,160 Robert mentioned, which was this figure of 0.78 seconds and how 692 00:44:29,550 --> 00:44:33,270 amazing it was that everybody gave this exact same figure. And 693 00:44:33,870 --> 00:44:38,250 this was the time it took to descend from 28,000 feet to zero 694 00:44:38,250 --> 00:44:43,950 feet and corroborated by Kevin Day and, and Gary Voorhis. But I 695 00:44:43,950 --> 00:44:47,790 just want to read you something from the SRU report, which says 696 00:44:47,790 --> 00:44:49,590 this is page 16. 697 00:44:50,970 --> 00:44:53,520 It says "the Senior Chief in charge of radar took notes 698 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,550 whilst observing the radar in the CIC area and noted that his 699 00:44:56,550 --> 00:45:00,180 equipment indicated that the object moved from 80,000 feet to 700 00:45:00,180 --> 00:45:05,280 20,000 feet in 0.78 seconds". And a second man, petty officer 701 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,490 station, basically said the same thing that he went as as fast as 702 00:45:08,490 --> 00:45:11,700 thought. And then you go on on the report to do calculations 703 00:45:11,700 --> 00:45:16,740 based on this movement of 60,000 vertical feet in 0.78 seconds. 704 00:45:17,340 --> 00:45:20,940 But that's all entirely wrong, because the there was no 705 00:45:20,940 --> 00:45:24,510 measurement of the object moving from 80,000 feet to 20,000 feet 706 00:45:24,570 --> 00:45:28,710 in 0.78 seconds. What Gary Voorhis and Kevin de talked 707 00:45:28,710 --> 00:45:34,620 about, was moving from 28,000 feet to sea level and 0.78 708 00:45:34,650 --> 00:45:37,620 seconds, that I really don't dispute that there was some 709 00:45:37,620 --> 00:45:41,820 radar return that seemed to indicate that. But here we have 710 00:45:41,850 --> 00:45:45,780 the SCU report referring to that same number for a completely 711 00:45:45,780 --> 00:45:50,400 different thing. And beyond that, the 0.78 seconds wasn't 712 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,430 just something that came out in this interview with the SCU. 713 00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:57,120 From from Kevin Day, it's a number that Kevin Day wrote in 714 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,380 his little short story, which he wrote years earlier, I can't 715 00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:04,170 remember exactly when but it was certainly earlier than the SCU 716 00:46:04,170 --> 00:46:07,710 interview, he wrote a short story, a fictional fantasy story 717 00:46:07,710 --> 00:46:11,340 retelling of the incident in which he plays a kind of a hero 718 00:46:11,340 --> 00:46:16,110 character who has psychic powers. And the whole incident 719 00:46:16,110 --> 00:46:21,240 is played out. And he mentions this 0.78 seconds as being the 720 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:25,470 speed at which they dropped in, in this in this short story and 721 00:46:25,470 --> 00:46:29,460 is also been repeated in the Above Top Secret thread 722 00:46:29,490 --> 00:46:32,250 discussion, which again, predates all of this. So it's 723 00:46:32,250 --> 00:46:35,670 not as if it wasn't something that was discovered and then 724 00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:38,520 verified. It's just a number that's been out there for a long 725 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:43,290 time. And here we see it being confused within the SCU report 726 00:46:43,290 --> 00:46:45,570 itself for a completely different movement. 727 00:46:46,140 --> 00:46:48,000 John Greenewald: Let's stick with that. Robert, that that 728 00:46:48,150 --> 00:46:51,900 part that MC is pointing out? Would you like to comment 729 00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:53,400 specifically on where that came from? 730 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,970 Robert Powell: Yes, yes, absolutely. So let's go through 731 00:46:55,970 --> 00:46:59,330 several of these points that M ick brought up. The first one, 732 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,530 he said and this is regarding the pilots make said the objects 733 00:47:03,530 --> 00:47:07,700 were lost in the mist. Is that right? Mick is that what you 734 00:47:07,700 --> 00:47:09,560 just said the objects were lost in the mist? 735 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:09,770 Mick West: Haze 736 00:47:10,580 --> 00:47:10,820 Robert Powell: Haze? 737 00:47:10,820 --> 00:47:13,400 Mick West: Yeah I can just yeah, I'll just verify that really 738 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,510 quick. Because it's a very short thing, the event summary. Yes, 739 00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:21,920 it says lost contact in the haze, so it says "the first 740 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,710 pilot should be afraid of our last visual idea the capsule in 741 00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:28,910 haze, and the last visual contact capsule, a 14k feet 742 00:47:28,910 --> 00:47:32,600 heading due east, and the pilot estimated the capsule achieved 743 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,640 600 to 700 knots". And the other pilots were just reported as 744 00:47:37,790 --> 00:47:41,030 "lost contact in Haze" as well. No real details, but 745 00:47:41,090 --> 00:47:42,860 Robert Powell: I'd like to see that document. 746 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:44,580 Mick West: Oh you haven't seen it? 747 00:47:45,140 --> 00:47:46,610 John Greenewald: What document was that Mick,again? 748 00:47:48,380 --> 00:47:49,790 Mick West: You want me to put it on screen. 749 00:47:50,270 --> 00:47:53,390 John Greenewald: Sure. Well, I was just going to get sure. But 750 00:47:53,390 --> 00:47:55,760 for the audio version, what do you what are you looking at? 751 00:47:58,370 --> 00:48:02,720 Mick West: I'm looking at the the exec, no, the event summary 752 00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:04,760 the 2004 Navy event document? 753 00:48:04,820 --> 00:48:07,640 John Greenewald: Oh, this is the one that leaked? That Yes, I'm 754 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,520 sorry, that leaked out, according to the story and was 755 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,800 published by George Knapp is out the one you're referring to? 756 00:48:13,980 --> 00:48:15,900 Mick West: Yeah, I think so. It's the one is obvious. in all 757 00:48:15,900 --> 00:48:20,610 caps. It looks like semi-official. And I don't think 758 00:48:20,610 --> 00:48:23,790 it's been, I don't know, has it been verified or disputed? 759 00:48:24,090 --> 00:48:25,890 John Greenewald: It has not been verified. If it's the one that 760 00:48:25,890 --> 00:48:27,990 I'm thinking of it has not yet 761 00:48:27,990 --> 00:48:30,570 Mick West: why don't I share my screen real quick. So you can 762 00:48:30,570 --> 00:48:30,750 see 763 00:48:30,750 --> 00:48:31,500 Robert Powell: I'd like to see 764 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,410 Mick West: what we were talking about? Look, you you disabled 765 00:48:34,410 --> 00:48:36,960 screen sharing. So I can't do that. 766 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,760 John Greenewald: Sorry. I didn't know I did that. 767 00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:43,020 Mick West: It's probably a default. But yeah, it's a it's 768 00:48:43,020 --> 00:48:46,650 one of the multiple sources. There's the Executive Report. 769 00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:49,680 There's the Event Summary, there is the interviews with flavor. 770 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,350 There's the interviews with source, there is the Fighter 771 00:48:52,350 --> 00:48:56,130 Sweep story. So you've got all these different, different 772 00:48:56,130 --> 00:49:01,710 sources. And they all seem to kind of vary. Let's see. 773 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:03,610 John Greenewald: And we'll we'll link it and I'm sorry, Nick, I 774 00:49:03,610 --> 00:49:07,540 don't want to interrupt you much further with the software but I 775 00:49:07,540 --> 00:49:10,930 will link it in the show notes. For those of you listening on 776 00:49:10,930 --> 00:49:14,020 the podcast version and you want to see it, just go to the black 777 00:49:14,020 --> 00:49:18,190 vault, comm slash show notes, find this episode and you will 778 00:49:18,190 --> 00:49:21,580 get a link to those documents. And all of our visuals that 779 00:49:21,580 --> 00:49:22,420 we're talking about 780 00:49:22,450 --> 00:49:26,230 Mick West: right now, just to be specific is the is the CVW-11 781 00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:27,250 Event Summary. 782 00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:33,700 Robert Powell: Okay. Okay, so, here's the problem I have with 783 00:49:33,700 --> 00:49:36,670 that, with that statement in terms of objects lost in the 784 00:49:36,670 --> 00:49:44,620 mist, Fravor has clearly said as did Lieutenant, Colonel, Marine 785 00:49:44,620 --> 00:49:49,330 Colonel who was out there at the same time, that the water was 786 00:49:49,330 --> 00:49:54,250 crystal clear that day, it was a beautiful California day, no 787 00:49:54,250 --> 00:49:59,200 mention of any type of mist. Furthermore, Slaight's plane is 788 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,820 at 20,000 feet. And he's saying everything perfectly clear below 789 00:50:03,820 --> 00:50:08,110 him as he's watching the encounter between Fravor and 790 00:50:08,110 --> 00:50:11,500 this unknown. So I do not believe there was mist in the 791 00:50:11,500 --> 00:50:15,790 air. There may be, I don't know what this document is that Mick 792 00:50:15,790 --> 00:50:19,330 dug up somewhere, but all the other data indicates this was a 793 00:50:19,330 --> 00:50:24,160 clear cut day so that the objects were lost in the myth 794 00:50:24,550 --> 00:50:26,260 that I don't buy it 795 00:50:26,260 --> 00:50:26,740 Mick West: Haze 796 00:50:27,980 --> 00:50:30,950 Robert Powell: Haze even. I want to see I'd like to see that 797 00:50:31,010 --> 00:50:35,660 document. Then Mick indicates, okay, there's a different 798 00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,170 recollection flavor said it disappeared in one to two 799 00:50:39,170 --> 00:50:44,960 seconds. And Slaight indicates it was instantaneous. But 800 00:50:45,740 --> 00:50:50,090 there's hardly any difference in those, whether it disappears in 801 00:50:50,090 --> 00:50:54,200 one seconds or disappears like it's shot out of a gun. But 802 00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:57,380 that's not what's important is not whether was it really one 803 00:50:57,380 --> 00:51:00,620 second or was it really a fraction of a second? What's 804 00:51:00,620 --> 00:51:05,060 important is what are the calculations that an object 805 00:51:05,060 --> 00:51:09,440 would have to travel at? In order to disappear that fast? 806 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,950 That's what's important. So let's not get confused about oh, 807 00:51:12,950 --> 00:51:15,620 well, this guy remembers one second, this guy remembers a 808 00:51:15,620 --> 00:51:19,370 10th of a second. That's not the point. The point was it was an 809 00:51:19,370 --> 00:51:22,670 extreme speed. And both of those guys agree on that. 810 00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:31,040 Then Mick indicates there's a misjudging a distance that had 811 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:35,330 nothing to do with the calculations we did. Because we 812 00:51:35,330 --> 00:51:40,280 didn't, we didn't need to know the distance, what we looked at 813 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:45,230 was how long did it take to disappear from your eyesight. So 814 00:51:45,230 --> 00:51:49,940 once we know an approximate distance, we know that they did, 815 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:55,310 Slaight's planes 20,000 feet above the object, right? We know 816 00:51:55,550 --> 00:52:00,200 that Fravor has gone to meet it. So we know the distance is less 817 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:05,300 than 20,000 feet in both cases. And Fravor's case, he indicated 818 00:52:05,300 --> 00:52:09,740 he came within half a mile. So it's very simple, a very simple 819 00:52:09,740 --> 00:52:14,990 calculation to determine how far does the object have to travel 820 00:52:14,990 --> 00:52:19,010 to disappear from my site? Okay, so then the Kevin Day story 821 00:52:19,010 --> 00:52:21,710 about point seven, eight seconds that Mick brought up. 822 00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:28,260 When I first interviewed Kevin Day, he indicated that the 823 00:52:28,260 --> 00:52:33,720 objects were at 80,000 feet, and they dropped to 28,000 feet, and 824 00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:38,400 point seven, eight seconds. Now in later interviews, he has 825 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:43,860 indicated it was a 28,000 feet and drop to near sea level and 826 00:52:43,860 --> 00:52:48,330 point seven, eight seconds. So there's clearly a discrepancy in 827 00:52:48,330 --> 00:52:52,860 what he's saying the distance that was when it dropped, right. 828 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:57,930 But but this is the part about human memory that Mick referred 829 00:52:57,930 --> 00:53:01,440 to right, you start to forget who it was it didn't go from 830 00:53:01,470 --> 00:53:07,740 80,000 to 28. Or was it 28 to zero? I think 80,000 to 28,000 831 00:53:07,770 --> 00:53:11,370 is the most likely. And here and here's why. And this is what 832 00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:14,580 Kevin Day told me the first time, all right, when these 833 00:53:14,580 --> 00:53:21,990 objects are 80,000 feet, they're not a threat to the F-18s in the 834 00:53:21,990 --> 00:53:26,250 area, because F-18s can't fly to 80,000 feet, right. So they're 835 00:53:26,250 --> 00:53:30,090 not a threat. And they were just moving south at slow speed. Once 836 00:53:30,090 --> 00:53:35,610 they dropped to 28,000 feet, they're in an area, which is 837 00:53:35,610 --> 00:53:38,430 where this exercise is about to began. So now there's the 838 00:53:38,430 --> 00:53:41,520 threat. And this is why the F-18s were scrambled. 839 00:53:42,690 --> 00:53:50,040 So whether Kevin was right in it was 80,000 to 28,000, or whether 840 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,420 he was right and it was 28,000 to zero, it doesn't matter. 841 00:53:54,870 --> 00:53:57,630 Because when we did a report and when you looked at the 842 00:53:57,630 --> 00:54:03,390 calculations, we looked at variances and distance. The 843 00:54:03,390 --> 00:54:08,670 acceleration numbers are extreme Mick, it doesn't whether you if 844 00:54:08,670 --> 00:54:13,110 you drop from 28,000 to zero and point seven, eight seconds, or 845 00:54:13,110 --> 00:54:17,850 you drop 80,000 to 28,000 in .78 seconds. It's still an extremely 846 00:54:17,850 --> 00:54:22,320 acceleration. All you're doing saying oh instead of 12,000 G's 847 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:27,600 it's only 4000 days so what? I mean if you believe that he 848 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,680 dropped point seven, eight seconds that's the key. Not that 849 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:36,270 distance. The key is did it drop in point seven, eight seconds. 850 00:54:36,420 --> 00:54:40,800 Now you argue Kevin day. Oh, he made the story. Well, he made 851 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:45,480 the story based on his notes from the service that said this 852 00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,480 object dropping point seven eight. But Kevin day is not the 853 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,890 only person saying this. Gary Voorhis, remember, and you drop 854 00:54:52,890 --> 00:54:58,650 that point. He indicated that this object drop as fast as I 855 00:54:58,650 --> 00:54:59,970 could think of the question to 856 00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:03,650 Ask him. So I've got two different servicemen that 857 00:55:03,650 --> 00:55:10,730 indicate that this object drop it extreme rate of speed. So we 858 00:55:10,730 --> 00:55:14,870 can't say we know the exact acceleration, but we can bracket 859 00:55:14,870 --> 00:55:18,110 it, we can say maybe these guys are off, and it was two seconds, 860 00:55:18,650 --> 00:55:22,520 maybe the distance was an 80,000. It was 28,000. And we 861 00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,060 can bracket and still do our calculations. That's what we 862 00:55:26,060 --> 00:55:28,670 call error bars. And that's what we did in our report. 863 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:30,950 Mick West: Show but you're basing this just on these 864 00:55:30,950 --> 00:55:33,470 accounts of these two people Gary Voorhis and Kevin Day, 865 00:55:33,470 --> 00:55:35,900 Kevin Day was the guy who was in charge. He was the guy who was 866 00:55:35,900 --> 00:55:38,360 actually running the radar room, he would be the guy who would 867 00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,780 know these things. Gary Voorhis was just, well not just, he was 868 00:55:42,590 --> 00:55:47,690 ah, he was the head network technician on the plane, he's 869 00:55:47,690 --> 00:55:50,060 not a radar specialist, even though he's familiar with the 870 00:55:50,060 --> 00:55:53,420 technology. And I think he's simply got the number from from 871 00:55:53,420 --> 00:55:57,050 Kevin from Kevin day. But let me ask you something. Where is this 872 00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,080 80,000 feet number coming from? He? 873 00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,390 Robert Powell: I'll tell you in a minute. He did not get the 874 00:56:02,390 --> 00:56:05,300 number from Kevin day because remember, I told you when I 875 00:56:05,300 --> 00:56:08,960 interviewed him, I asked him if he knew Kevin day, he indicated 876 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,930 No, because he went to his logbook to look the guy's name. 877 00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:15,500 So he did not get the number from Kevin Day. I talked to him 878 00:56:15,500 --> 00:56:23,540 in April 2018. Okay, so the answer he gave me was basically 879 00:56:23,540 --> 00:56:26,960 an answer that indicated a split second, we've got two different 880 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:28,460 guys saying the same thing. 881 00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,580 Mick West: I think, okay, there, we can resolve that. We're going 882 00:56:31,580 --> 00:56:35,630 to ask Gary voorhis about that. And perhaps even before this 883 00:56:35,630 --> 00:56:35,870 thing, 884 00:56:35,900 --> 00:56:38,840 Robert Powell: I've got it. I've got it on redording 885 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:40,280 Mick West: No, I mean ask him now 886 00:56:41,770 --> 00:56:44,170 Robert Powell: Well, like Like you said, and he'll probably 887 00:56:44,170 --> 00:56:47,710 still say the same thing. But is he indicated May, people's 888 00:56:47,710 --> 00:56:52,090 memories change. That's why it was critical that I interviewed 889 00:56:52,090 --> 00:56:55,720 him before he ever knew Kevin day before he got on social 890 00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:59,080 media before he started talking to others. So you had the 891 00:56:59,500 --> 00:57:01,480 Mick West: So his memory was fine at that point? 892 00:57:01,510 --> 00:57:03,910 Robert Powell: question, So you want to know where did the 893 00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:04,690 80,feet come from 894 00:57:04,690 --> 00:57:06,250 Mick West: that's interesting, right? Yeah. 895 00:57:06,270 --> 00:57:06,690 So 896 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,600 Robert Powell: So the 80,000 feet came from that was the 897 00:57:10,900 --> 00:57:15,160 upper limit that the radar was set to that day, it could have 898 00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:18,850 been higher than 80,000. All they know is it was at a minimum 899 00:57:18,850 --> 00:57:20,680 of 80,000 when it dropped down. 900 00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,080 Mick West: So you're saying that Kevin Day saw them at 80,000 901 00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:26,440 feet? 902 00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:29,800 Robert Powell: Yes, he definitely saw, remember the 903 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:34,630 objects that are flying South at 100 miles per hour. they'd seen 904 00:57:34,630 --> 00:57:39,040 them for four to five days. Right? So let me back up, you've 905 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:44,440 got a Carrier Strike Group that seeing objects 80,000 plus feet, 906 00:57:44,740 --> 00:57:47,530 this is going on for several days, sometimes they see three 907 00:57:47,530 --> 00:57:51,250 or four objects, sometimes one, sometimes four or five. They're 908 00:57:51,250 --> 00:57:55,240 moving south very slowly. They don't know what they are. They 909 00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:59,020 recalibrate all the radar equipment. And they are 910 00:57:59,020 --> 00:58:02,800 apparently there, right. But they don't do anything because 911 00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:07,450 they're not a threat anyway to the Strike Group. Then the 912 00:58:07,450 --> 00:58:11,590 strike group gets ready to have an air exercise on November 14. 913 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:13,060 In the late morning. 914 00:58:14,140 --> 00:58:20,410 At that time, the objects drop out of high altitude and drop it 915 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,360 down to an altitude where they are now a safety hazard to these 916 00:58:25,420 --> 00:58:29,380 F-18s that are going to perform an exercise. At that moment in 917 00:58:29,380 --> 00:58:33,460 time, Kevin Day contacts the Captain of the ship, the USS 918 00:58:33,460 --> 00:58:36,970 Princeton. And remember, they're responsible for the entire 919 00:58:36,970 --> 00:58:41,080 Strike Group because they control radar systems. And he 920 00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:45,820 asked them "what should we do because I consider this a safety 921 00:58:45,820 --> 00:58:49,990 hazard". And he said, we've got some FAA teams in the air to 922 00:58:49,990 --> 00:58:50,440 have them. 923 00:58:51,490 --> 00:58:55,780 Should we, you know, go check this thing out. The captain gave 924 00:58:55,780 --> 00:59:01,360 him authorization. He redirected Fravor's and Slaight's aircraft, 925 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,200 to the radar, to the nearest radar contact because he had 926 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:09,310 multiple radar contacts. And they went and interrogated that 927 00:59:09,580 --> 00:59:12,880 latitude, longitude, location, and that's when they found the 928 00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:13,480 Tic Tac. 929 00:59:14,590 --> 00:59:16,150 Mick West: Yeah, the problem with that, though, is that 930 00:59:16,180 --> 00:59:19,570 that's not what Kevin Day says now, he gives a very specific 931 00:59:19,570 --> 00:59:22,090 account, which has really nothing to do with him seeing 932 00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:28,270 objects at 80,000 feet. And he says that for precisely 10 days, 933 00:59:28,540 --> 00:59:32,920 he had seen objects at 28,000 feet moving south, he never was 934 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:39,220 aware of this 80,000 feet figure during this event, it never up. 935 00:59:40,180 --> 00:59:42,220 Robert Powell: No, I think you've got that wrong. You 936 00:59:42,220 --> 00:59:45,100 Mick West: No, I've got I spoke to him, you know, just few 937 00:59:45,100 --> 00:59:47,560 months ago, and we discussed it in great depth. I actually 938 00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:51,580 pressed him on this point three or four times because I was kind 939 00:59:51,580 --> 00:59:53,830 of surprised. Not surprised, but I needed to clarify. 940 00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,280 Robert Powell: Yes. Yeah, I don't that's not that's not 941 00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,130 correct. Just think about it logically make you don't have 942 01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:05,590 objects at 28,000 feet flying over an air Carrier Strike Group 943 01:00:05,620 --> 01:00:07,300 and they're not doing anything about it. 944 01:00:07,390 --> 01:00:09,850 Mick West: But this is what Kevin Day says what happened. 945 01:00:10,990 --> 01:00:13,900 Robert Powell: What he told you a few days ago whether that's 946 01:00:13,900 --> 01:00:18,820 true or not whether you are remembering it incorrectly or 947 01:00:18,820 --> 01:00:19,630 whether he has 948 01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:22,180 Mick West: I have the transcript in front of me right here 949 01:00:22,210 --> 01:00:26,260 Robert Powell: Well, but he's at multiple other times said 80,000 950 01:00:26,260 --> 01:00:30,670 feet. So perhaps he was confused on that day. That's not what's 951 01:00:30,670 --> 01:00:31,840 important here, because 952 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:33,370 Mick West: Oh, I think it is what's important actually, 953 01:00:33,370 --> 01:00:35,800 because we're talking about the veracity of the eyewitness 954 01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:36,550 testimony 955 01:00:36,820 --> 01:00:40,300 Robert Powell: I interviewed him, January 2018. He 956 01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:45,430 specifically and I've got it the recording 80,000 plus feet. Not 957 01:00:45,430 --> 01:00:49,180 only that, Gary Voorhis said they were originally at 80,000 958 01:00:49,180 --> 01:00:53,530 plus feet. Fravor has said that they were at 80,000 plus feet. 959 01:00:53,770 --> 01:00:56,650 When I interviewed James Slaight, he said that we're at 960 01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,700 80,000 plus feet initially. So there are multiple people who've 961 01:01:00,700 --> 01:01:04,360 said it's an 80,000 plus feet. What happened to your interview 962 01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:08,830 with Kevin Day, three years after we first began 963 01:01:08,830 --> 01:01:11,260 investigating this, I don't know. I mean, I don't 964 01:01:11,260 --> 01:01:13,180 Mick West: So you think that over the course of three years, 965 01:01:13,180 --> 01:01:15,790 he could have forgotten it and completely changed his story. 966 01:01:15,790 --> 01:01:18,010 Robert Powell: I don't I don't know. And I don't care that 967 01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:19,030 there's no doubt 968 01:01:19,540 --> 01:01:19,780 Mick West: You don't care? 969 01:01:19,780 --> 01:01:21,820 Robert Powell: the objects were at 80,000 feet. 970 01:01:22,110 --> 01:01:24,480 Mick West: But the problem here is that the events happened in 971 01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:29,280 2004. And you interviewed him in what, like, like four years ago, 972 01:01:29,310 --> 01:01:32,130 which was 10 years after the event. So if you think his his 973 01:01:32,130 --> 01:01:35,910 memory can completely change in three years, then surely it can 974 01:01:35,910 --> 01:01:38,700 completely even more change in 10 years, 975 01:01:39,090 --> 01:01:41,550 Robert Powell: you get your you're making an assumption, his 976 01:01:41,550 --> 01:01:43,050 memory change. I don't 977 01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,390 Mick West: you're telling me, you're telling me he has 978 01:01:45,390 --> 01:01:46,350 different accounts 979 01:01:46,860 --> 01:01:49,170 Robert Powell: Mick, he maybe he misunderstood what you were 980 01:01:49,170 --> 01:01:50,250 asking him, I don't know, 981 01:01:50,250 --> 01:01:52,230 Mick West: Oh no, he understood exactly what I was asking 982 01:01:52,290 --> 01:01:53,130 Robert Powell: I'm just telling you 983 01:01:53,130 --> 01:01:55,200 Mick West: I can read you the transcript if you want. And 984 01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:59,370 Robert Powell: I'll be that, we will, we'll post about seven 985 01:01:59,370 --> 01:02:04,740 different times with different individuals where the objects 986 01:02:04,740 --> 01:02:07,230 are at 80,000 feet flying south. 987 01:02:07,350 --> 01:02:10,020 John Greenewald: And so let me and make I want to give you an 988 01:02:07,750 --> 01:02:08,140 Mick West: Kevin Day 989 01:02:10,020 --> 01:02:13,590 opportunity. I'm running out of time because we allocated an 990 01:02:13,590 --> 01:02:15,870 hour, I'm happy to hang out for a little bit longer. And so 991 01:02:15,890 --> 01:02:21,350 Mick West: Oh, I'm trying to go as long as you like, 992 01:02:16,170 --> 01:02:17,550 guys, what's tha 993 01:02:21,650 --> 01:02:23,900 John Greenewald: Okay, so then make you we're gonna jump in 994 01:02:23,930 --> 01:02:27,440 because I do want to do one last thing before I lose you guys. So 995 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,020 but if you're okay, with a couple more minutes, Mick, go 996 01:02:30,020 --> 01:02:30,800 ahead and finish that thought, 997 01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:32,870 Mick West: No, I can go a couple more hours if you want. 998 01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,850 Kevin day very specifically told me that he learned about the 999 01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:41,360 80,000 feet from the Ballistic Missile Defense space tracking. 1000 01:02:41,990 --> 01:02:45,230 And he said that this was you know, essentially above his pay 1001 01:02:45,230 --> 01:02:48,890 garade, pr, pay grade. It was classified information. He was 1002 01:02:48,890 --> 01:02:52,610 not aware of it at the time. He learned about it two days after 1003 01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:57,620 the incident from talking to other guys on the ship. So it's 1004 01:02:57,620 --> 01:03:01,670 completely different to what you just said. Robert, 1005 01:03:02,730 --> 01:03:05,760 Robert Powell: and what what I'm saying make is how many other 1006 01:03:05,790 --> 01:03:10,560 quenelle spit he ever say that? Tell me one time any other 1007 01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,800 interview, or Kevin day ever said that? Give me one 1008 01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:14,280 interview? 1009 01:03:15,350 --> 01:03:17,330 Mick West: Well, what do you think we should talk to Kevin 1010 01:03:17,630 --> 01:03:20,330 Day now? Or do you think now he's being completely corrupted? 1011 01:03:20,330 --> 01:03:23,750 His brain is mush and we won't get anything useful out of him? 1012 01:03:23,810 --> 01:03:28,100 Robert Powell: No. I'm , yeah. Without going in and listening 1013 01:03:28,100 --> 01:03:32,870 to the questions asked, there's all sorts of possibilities he 1014 01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:34,610 misunderstood what you asked.. 1015 01:03:35,710 --> 01:03:39,160 Mick West: Let me give you some context he says and he says 1016 01:03:39,220 --> 01:03:44,140 "again at this time at this point, I wasn't aware that the 1017 01:03:44,170 --> 01:03:46,870 Ballistic Missile Defense guys had tracked these things from 1018 01:03:46,900 --> 01:03:50,620 outer space I had no idea about that. It was above my clearance 1019 01:03:50,620 --> 01:03:52,690 basically above my security clearance." 1020 01:03:53,470 --> 01:03:55,270 Robert Powell: So what did that mean? They didn't, that meant 1021 01:03:55,270 --> 01:03:56,530 nothing what you just told me 1022 01:03:57,070 --> 01:04:01,150 Mick West: He said, let's see, "the reason I say they were 1023 01:04:01,150 --> 01:04:03,430 weird is because our Ballistic Missile Defense guys were 1024 01:04:03,430 --> 01:04:05,800 tracking these things coming down from outer space, I found 1025 01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:09,550 out later. That wasn't the view I had on my radar. I was more 1026 01:04:09,550 --> 01:04:12,040 concerned with 30,000 feet and below" 1027 01:04:13,330 --> 01:04:18,190 so he's he's not actually talking about these these 1028 01:04:18,190 --> 01:04:21,880 things. He says like, I asked him later, because it came up 1029 01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:25,510 several times. I asked him, "you said the Ballistic Missile 1030 01:04:25,510 --> 01:04:27,700 Defense guys were tracking them coming from space. Was it 1031 01:04:27,700 --> 01:04:30,490 something that you were aware of at the time?" And he says "I was 1032 01:04:30,490 --> 01:04:33,130 not I was not there was not my focus and wasn't where my head 1033 01:04:33,130 --> 01:04:36,070 was at that time". And then I asked him, "How did you find 1034 01:04:36,070 --> 01:04:38,590 about this Ballistic Missile Defense?" And he says, "Well, 1035 01:04:38,590 --> 01:04:41,680 the next couple of days talking to guys on the ships," and then 1036 01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,170 he says like, he's gonna try to hook me up with those guys. So 1037 01:04:44,260 --> 01:04:46,450 you can answer the questions because he doesn't have all the 1038 01:04:46,450 --> 01:04:47,020 answers. 1039 01:04:49,780 --> 01:04:52,900 So he's he's, and he was very consistent the entire time. The 1040 01:04:52,930 --> 01:04:57,100 80,000 feet figure never came up. He always said it was 28,000 1041 01:04:57,100 --> 01:04:59,980 feet. Very, very consistent. I think this is a 1042 01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:03,710 Number that Gary voorhis gave as well, for the radar targets, you 1043 01:05:03,710 --> 01:05:06,440 know what we're talking about, like for most of the incidents, 1044 01:05:06,890 --> 01:05:10,040 the radar problem was that we were there, we're seeing these 1045 01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:13,820 these groups of targets moving down the screen from, from, you 1046 01:05:13,820 --> 01:05:17,030 know, around Catalina down to Guadalupe. 1047 01:05:17,210 --> 01:05:21,080 John Greenewald: So and let me just jump in. In fairness, you 1048 01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:23,060 were talking about the 80,000 feet number, you didn't 1049 01:05:23,060 --> 01:05:26,810 specifically ask him about the, the the ceiling, right, he was 1050 01:05:26,810 --> 01:05:30,140 talking about what he was more concerned at. And I can kind of 1051 01:05:30,140 --> 01:05:34,190 see why he wouldn't go there. If he's just focusing on what he's 1052 01:05:34,190 --> 01:05:37,580 concerned with Robert, correct me if I'm wrong with what I'm 1053 01:05:37,580 --> 01:05:41,600 hearing here. But, Mick, you're saying he didn't bring it up or 1054 01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:46,040 go? He's changing his story. But in fairness, with what you just 1055 01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:50,000 read in the context of he's only concerned about the 28,000 foot 1056 01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,780 ceiling and below, because that's the threat area is what 1057 01:05:53,780 --> 01:05:54,800 I'm getting from Robert. 1058 01:05:56,550 --> 01:05:59,100 Am I kind of following that? Right? Like you didn't ask him 1059 01:05:59,100 --> 01:06:00,000 about 80,000? 1060 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,240 Robert Powell: Yeah, that's, yeah, he's, I think that's 1061 01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,790 great. That's fine. I'm just saying it all depends on the 1062 01:06:05,790 --> 01:06:09,840 context in the way the conversation with make went 1063 01:06:09,870 --> 01:06:12,870 between him and Kevin Day, because there are multiple 1064 01:06:12,870 --> 01:06:17,100 conversations with Kevin Day, where he indicates the objects 1065 01:06:17,100 --> 01:06:20,940 were originally at 80,000 plus feet prior to this day. Yeah, on 1066 01:06:20,940 --> 01:06:25,530 November 10th, multiple days prior to November 14. The key 1067 01:06:25,530 --> 01:06:29,880 thing that changes on November 14, is the objects drop down 1068 01:06:29,910 --> 01:06:35,280 into the operating area of the FAA teams. And that's why I 1069 01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:39,000 mean, this all makes logical sense. That's why they scramble 1070 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,510 the Jets. They're not going to scramble, there's, they're going 1071 01:06:42,510 --> 01:06:46,530 to scramble jets, anytime something's in their operating 1072 01:06:46,530 --> 01:06:48,780 area, and they're getting ready to do an exercise 1073 01:06:49,140 --> 01:06:51,270 John Greenewald: where I wanted to be careful with the Kevin Day 1074 01:06:51,270 --> 01:06:54,270 thing as he's obviously around, and I don't want to spend too 1075 01:06:54,270 --> 01:06:57,990 much time trashing his memory and stuff like that. What I will 1076 01:06:57,990 --> 01:07:01,140 do in the show notes Mick, I definitely please send me that 1077 01:07:01,140 --> 01:07:04,500 interview. I will link it so my audience can see the interview 1078 01:07:04,500 --> 01:07:08,550 in full. And then Robert, you as well, if you have anything you'd 1079 01:07:08,550 --> 01:07:11,160 like to add to that, but I'll reach out to Kevin Day, because 1080 01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:14,250 again, I want to be a little bit Cognizant here that we're 1081 01:07:14,250 --> 01:07:17,340 speaking about somebody's memory and what he said or what he 1082 01:07:17,340 --> 01:07:19,830 meant or what he did or what he didn't, transcripts are good. 1083 01:07:19,830 --> 01:07:22,410 But I want to make sure that we at least reach out to him. Maybe 1084 01:07:22,410 --> 01:07:25,200 we can get some clarification. So in the last couple of 1085 01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:29,220 minutes, and thank you guys both for going over with me here. I 1086 01:07:29,220 --> 01:07:32,070 wanted you both to have an opportunity to ask each other a 1087 01:07:32,070 --> 01:07:35,100 question. I tried to stay out of this as much as I could, as you 1088 01:07:35,100 --> 01:07:38,130 both hopefully can see, I didn't mean to step on either one of 1089 01:07:38,130 --> 01:07:40,680 you. And I believe I stepped on you both at one time or another. 1090 01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:44,820 So I apologize for that. But in order to to again, be as fair as 1091 01:07:44,820 --> 01:07:48,150 possible with time and the topics. But I wanted to give you 1092 01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:53,070 an opportunity here in the end to ask one question that maybe 1093 01:07:53,070 --> 01:07:55,590 we haven't dealt with, or if you want to bring something up that 1094 01:07:55,590 --> 01:08:00,810 you feel is is not dealt with to the other? Hopefully, you guys 1095 01:08:00,810 --> 01:08:02,550 are okay with that little exercise. 1096 01:08:03,860 --> 01:08:07,250 I don't know who wants to start? If anybody cares to start, if 1097 01:08:07,250 --> 01:08:07,460 not 1098 01:08:07,460 --> 01:08:11,180 Robert Powell: I'll ask I'll ask Mick one. So I would like to 1099 01:08:11,180 --> 01:08:19,070 know, why have I never heard of a case that you can't solve? 1100 01:08:21,830 --> 01:08:23,840 Mick West: There's plenty of cases I can't solve. I mean, I 1101 01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:25,040 haven't solved this case. 1102 01:08:25,070 --> 01:08:25,670 Robert Powell: I'd like to know 1103 01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:28,790 Mick West: The encounter of commander David Fravor with a 1104 01:08:28,790 --> 01:08:31,820 tic tac shaped object, I don't have a solution for that I have 1105 01:08:31,820 --> 01:08:37,160 a number of proposed hypotheses. And, but I certainly would not 1106 01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:39,380 claim to have solved this case. And of course, there are 1107 01:08:39,380 --> 01:08:41,420 multiple multiple cases where there's simply not enough 1108 01:08:41,420 --> 01:08:44,780 information to to solve them. If you look at the the MUFON 1109 01:08:44,780 --> 01:08:48,500 database, which has, I think about 120,000 cases in it, 1110 01:08:48,830 --> 01:08:53,150 there's probably at least 30,000 cases in there that I am 1111 01:08:53,150 --> 01:08:55,940 completely unable to solve because they are just a little 1112 01:08:55,940 --> 01:09:00,320 white dots in the distance. So I'm always not able to solve 1113 01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:00,890 cases. 1114 01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:04,610 John Greenewald: Let me just ask you a quick follow up Mick on 1115 01:09:04,610 --> 01:09:09,260 that. Are you open to this not being a conventional aircraft 1116 01:09:09,260 --> 01:09:12,080 and the witnesses and everything show there's discrepancies? 1117 01:09:12,330 --> 01:09:17,370 Mick West: I, my, my method, whenever I investigate things is 1118 01:09:17,370 --> 01:09:22,290 to make a list of what I think are the various hypotheses and 1119 01:09:22,290 --> 01:09:25,740 kind of rank them by what I think is the most likely thing. 1120 01:09:25,740 --> 01:09:29,250 So I will put something like you know, it's a plane at the top, 1121 01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:31,980 and I'll put something like it's an alien spaceship at the 1122 01:09:31,980 --> 01:09:35,130 bottom. And then in the middle, I might put it is advanced 1123 01:09:35,130 --> 01:09:38,820 technology development developed by the US or by the Russians. 1124 01:09:39,210 --> 01:09:41,670 And perhaps somewhere around there there's like an optical 1125 01:09:41,670 --> 01:09:44,520 illusion and then perhaps in there like the guy was lying, 1126 01:09:44,730 --> 01:09:47,880 perhaps the in others the guy was mistaken. So you get all 1127 01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:51,330 these different possibilities. And I never like to take 1128 01:09:51,330 --> 01:09:55,380 anything at all off the table. So even though I will have my 1129 01:09:55,380 --> 01:09:59,910 number one hypothesis. For example, link in Go-Fast my 1130 01:09:59,910 --> 01:10:02,760 number one hypothesis is that it's a balloon. But my number 1131 01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:06,000 two hypothesis is that it's a bird. And my number three 1132 01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:10,440 hypothesis is it's a drone. My number four hypothesis is, I 1133 01:10:10,440 --> 01:10:12,510 don't know what my number four would be. But it's like another 1134 01:10:12,510 --> 01:10:16,140 plane. And number five is that it's CGI, and increasingly less 1135 01:10:16,140 --> 01:10:19,650 likely as you go down, but I never like to take things off 1136 01:10:19,650 --> 01:10:24,060 the table. So I'm certainly open to the possibility that these 1137 01:10:24,060 --> 01:10:29,070 things exist. But I do like to try to rank my my ideas. 1138 01:10:29,190 --> 01:10:30,990 John Greenewald: So you think it's aliens? Perfect. That's all 1139 01:10:30,990 --> 01:10:35,880 I heard. All right, moving. And that's the show. Now Mick let me 1140 01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:41,010 let me have you now. If If you want to ask Robert, a specific 1141 01:10:41,010 --> 01:10:44,430 question, something maybe he has said or 1142 01:10:44,430 --> 01:10:47,880 Mick West: Yeah, sure. Like with the the Fravor encounter, I'd 1143 01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:51,210 like to ask Robert, have you considered the possibility of a 1144 01:10:51,210 --> 01:10:56,460 parallax illusion being caused by Fravor thinking that the 1145 01:10:57,630 --> 01:11:00,300 (that was my computer talking to me), thinking that the object 1146 01:11:00,300 --> 01:11:03,390 was twice as big as it actually was, he thought it was 40 feet, 1147 01:11:03,390 --> 01:11:07,050 but say it was actually 20 feet, and the object was perhaps not 1148 01:11:07,050 --> 01:11:09,240 moving very fast at all, is that something you've actually 1149 01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:10,890 considered in your analysis? 1150 01:11:11,290 --> 01:11:13,060 Robert Powell: Well, we definitely considered the 1151 01:11:13,060 --> 01:11:19,600 possibility that smaller, right, because if you don't know what 1152 01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:26,200 an object is, you can't truly identify its exact size, right. 1153 01:11:26,620 --> 01:11:32,170 But the closer an object is to a human, the more the parallax 1154 01:11:32,170 --> 01:11:37,360 ability within our eyes, allows us to begin to estimate the size 1155 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,180 of an object, right? Something 10 feet away from you, you can 1156 01:11:40,180 --> 01:11:44,200 look at it and you can know the size of it, put it two miles 1157 01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:50,980 away, that's a totally different story. And so we did look at the 1158 01:11:50,980 --> 01:11:55,060 possibility that the object was the smallest 15 feet, and the 1159 01:11:55,060 --> 01:11:59,170 smaller the object, then the less the acceleration, because 1160 01:11:59,170 --> 01:12:00,160 the less the speed. 1161 01:12:01,570 --> 01:12:06,370 So we did look at that. In terms of, could he have been flying 1162 01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:10,960 around an object, though? It's just sitting there and he's 1163 01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:15,250 flying around? We don't believe that's a very, a possibility at 1164 01:12:15,250 --> 01:12:19,780 all, because you have slaight who's up here, right. And he's, 1165 01:12:19,900 --> 01:12:22,720 he's watching the whole encounter. And what Fravor 1166 01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:26,260 indicated was the object was coming up towards him as he was 1167 01:12:26,260 --> 01:12:29,620 going down towards it. So you've got two different perspectives 1168 01:12:30,580 --> 01:12:34,030 to examine it, so we didn't consider that a possibility at 1169 01:12:34,030 --> 01:12:34,330 all. 1170 01:12:34,870 --> 01:12:36,490 Mick West: That reminds me of something else I wanted to ask 1171 01:12:36,490 --> 01:12:42,310 you. Slay. you interviewed him? Is that correct? 1172 01:12:42,490 --> 01:12:43,210 Robert Powell: That is correct. 1173 01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:46,780 Mick West: But, there's is there are recording or transcripts of 1174 01:12:46,780 --> 01:12:47,260 that? 1175 01:12:47,810 --> 01:12:49,940 Robert Powell: There is a recording of it?, yes. But 1176 01:12:49,940 --> 01:12:53,600 Slaight is never given us permission to release the 1177 01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:58,850 recording. So we, like, Kevin Day and Gary Voorhis, their 1178 01:12:58,850 --> 01:13:01,520 recordings are released, because they've given us permission. 1179 01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:02,390 Slaight is not 1180 01:13:02,900 --> 01:13:05,720 Mick West: So but you, I mean you you've quoted from it. So 1181 01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:07,550 occasionally, I mean, how does that work? 1182 01:13:07,550 --> 01:13:09,740 Robert Powell: Well I can quote from it. That doesn't mean I 1183 01:13:09,740 --> 01:13:10,520 can't quote from it. 1184 01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:10,970 Mick West: Can you quote all of it? 1185 01:13:11,210 --> 01:13:13,340 John Greenewald: Were they cleared quotes. Like, I think I 1186 01:13:13,340 --> 01:13:16,040 get what he's asking. If you if you can't release the full 1187 01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:17,990 interview, how can you release partial, so 1188 01:13:18,290 --> 01:13:21,020 Robert Powell: he didn't have a problem with me talking about, 1189 01:13:21,260 --> 01:13:25,880 you know, that it shot off at the speed at, coming out of gun? 1190 01:13:26,140 --> 01:13:29,560 Mick West: That reminds me also he like he you said that he said 1191 01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,950 that there was a heat haze around us kind of glowing haze. 1192 01:13:32,950 --> 01:13:33,370 Robert Powell: Yes, he did. 1193 01:13:33,460 --> 01:13:35,770 Mick West: But that wasn't reported by flavor. He was a lot 1194 01:13:35,770 --> 01:13:36,340 closer. 1195 01:13:38,830 --> 01:13:41,530 Robert Powell: Yeah, no breaker did not report that. I mean, 1196 01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:44,410 there's always gonna be some difference in people's memory, 1197 01:13:44,440 --> 01:13:44,800 right? 1198 01:13:45,460 --> 01:13:49,060 Mick West: Hmm yeah, but Slaight is three miles away, and Fravor 1199 01:13:49,060 --> 01:13:52,780 was one mile away. So it would seem like if there's such a 1200 01:13:52,780 --> 01:13:54,970 distinctive thing, they would both see it. 1201 01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:59,680 Robert Powell: I don't know, maybe it was the angle. That 1202 01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:02,680 allowed him to see that heat haze better than forever. I have 1203 01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:03,340 no idea. 1204 01:14:03,970 --> 01:14:06,880 Mick West: Yeah, it's a shame that that interview cannot be 1205 01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:11,080 released, but you refer to it, but there could be a bunch of 1206 01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:16,060 stuff in there that doesn't exactly match with Fravor, like 1207 01:14:16,060 --> 01:14:21,790 that. So from my perspective, I, it's unfortunate that we can't 1208 01:14:21,790 --> 01:14:25,420 see it because it leaves you open to accusations of cherry 1209 01:14:25,420 --> 01:14:28,750 picking because you just get to get the release the best bit of 1210 01:14:28,750 --> 01:14:30,040 the of the interview. 1211 01:14:30,449 --> 01:14:31,229 Robert Powell: Yeah, pr 1212 01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:32,890 Mick West: Perhaps we could revisit it with Slaight and ask 1213 01:14:32,890 --> 01:14:35,140 him if he can just release a text transcript 1214 01:14:35,140 --> 01:14:38,500 Robert Powell: I've done that. I've done that. And Slaight's 1215 01:14:38,530 --> 01:14:43,480 view is, he was so disenchanted. 1216 01:14:43,660 --> 01:14:46,540 Mick West: Yeah. he had that one experience 1217 01:14:46,570 --> 01:14:49,210 Robert Powell: and he no longer wants to talk to the media. 1218 01:14:49,630 --> 01:14:49,900 Yeah, 1219 01:14:49,900 --> 01:14:52,420 John Greenewald: I mean, just to back that up. I reached out to 1220 01:14:52,420 --> 01:14:55,690 him a couple years ago trying to do an interview. Just out of 1221 01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:59,200 curiosity. I wanted to talk to one of the pilots and he was not 1222 01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:01,360 having it. So he's been that way, it's seems like for a 1223 01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:01,750 while, to be 1224 01:15:01,930 --> 01:15:04,060 Robert Powell: honest, the only reason we were successful in 1225 01:15:04,060 --> 01:15:08,200 getting an interview with slight was because one of the SCU 1226 01:15:08,410 --> 01:15:13,180 members is retired naval captain. And you know, military 1227 01:15:13,180 --> 01:15:16,240 guys will talk to military guys. So he talked to Slaight first, 1228 01:15:16,540 --> 01:15:19,810 after he kind of greases the skids and, you know, Slaight was 1229 01:15:19,810 --> 01:15:26,110 wanting to talk to me. But after the Fox interview, he said he 1230 01:15:26,110 --> 01:15:29,380 had too much grief for his family, to do any more 1231 01:15:29,380 --> 01:15:33,220 interviews. So he said he's done with it. And I don't, I 1232 01:15:33,220 --> 01:15:34,630 understand, I don't blame the guy. 1233 01:15:35,380 --> 01:15:39,340 John Greenewald: Well, one thing is clear with this interview in 1234 01:15:39,340 --> 01:15:42,490 that we are all, but but obviously directing this to both 1235 01:15:42,490 --> 01:15:45,760 of you, very passionate about what we do what we believe and 1236 01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:48,880 the conclusions that we draw. But one thing that I want to say 1237 01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:53,590 to both of you is thank you not only for taking the time to do 1238 01:15:53,590 --> 01:15:57,130 this, but also being open to listen to one another. You know, 1239 01:15:57,130 --> 01:16:01,570 we all, again, get passionate with what we want to say and how 1240 01:16:01,570 --> 01:16:05,320 we want to say it. But I have a lot of respect for both of you, 1241 01:16:05,350 --> 01:16:09,070 I have no idea where I sit on this case, which is why I was 1242 01:16:09,070 --> 01:16:13,090 very, very thrilled that you both agreed to do this. So with 1243 01:16:13,090 --> 01:16:17,260 that, I just wanted to say thank you to you both. And I don't 1244 01:16:17,260 --> 01:16:19,660 want to just cut it off here, but I was going to end it if 1245 01:16:19,660 --> 01:16:22,540 there's anything else that you guys want to say I'm happy to 1246 01:16:22,540 --> 01:16:27,160 give you an opportunity to do a closing remark or two or if you 1247 01:16:27,340 --> 01:16:29,770 want to say thanks. I'll bring you guys back whenever you'd 1248 01:16:29,770 --> 01:16:30,160 like. 1249 01:16:30,690 --> 01:16:34,260 Robert Powell: Yeah, I mean, I'll say I apologize for maybe 1250 01:16:34,260 --> 01:16:38,190 getting a little passionate sometimes during our discussion. 1251 01:16:38,190 --> 01:16:40,470 So Mick there was nothing personal meant 1252 01:16:40,470 --> 01:16:41,100 Mick West: no, no worries. 1253 01:16:41,490 --> 01:16:45,900 Robert Powell: in any of my replies. I do think quite you do 1254 01:16:45,930 --> 01:16:51,090 Mick provides a good service. A lot of, I mean, I'm in agreement 1255 01:16:51,090 --> 01:16:56,490 with many of the cases you look at, you do a good job there. But 1256 01:16:56,520 --> 01:17:03,750 what I would just urge is that you, you try to look as 1257 01:17:03,750 --> 01:17:09,360 dispassionately, as you can at cases and try and get all the 1258 01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:13,500 evidence that you can before analyzing cases, I could be 1259 01:17:13,500 --> 01:17:18,600 wrong, but I get the impression that you kind of already decided 1260 01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:21,510 where you're headed before you go there? 1261 01:17:23,310 --> 01:17:27,240 Mick West: Well, I don't think I have, I think I probably have 1262 01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:30,210 biases, like everybody else does. But I think something 1263 01:17:30,210 --> 01:17:33,660 that's come out of this conversation, perhaps is that, 1264 01:17:33,690 --> 01:17:37,320 you know, we all have these disagreements on various issues, 1265 01:17:37,350 --> 01:17:40,410 and sometimes they're disagreements that cannot be 1266 01:17:40,410 --> 01:17:44,430 resolved. But in a large number of cases, they are disagreements 1267 01:17:44,430 --> 01:17:47,520 that are purely factual and that we should be able to resolve 1268 01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:51,330 them by for example, why did Kevin Day Remember and when did 1269 01:17:51,330 --> 01:17:54,150 he remember it? What did Gary Voorhis, when did you learn 1270 01:17:54,150 --> 01:17:58,620 certain certain figures? And what do these various reports 1271 01:17:58,620 --> 01:18:02,520 say and things like that? So we can we can do at least some 1272 01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:05,790 reconciliation of the disagreements and I think 1273 01:18:05,820 --> 01:18:09,870 perhaps we can go back afterwards and ask the points of 1274 01:18:09,870 --> 01:18:14,850 Gary Voorhis. Like when did he learned this 0.78 seconds. And, 1275 01:18:14,970 --> 01:18:19,140 you know, perhaps we could learn a bit more detail about the lock 1276 01:18:19,140 --> 01:18:22,890 mechanism on the FLIR camera and see if, you know, the optical 1277 01:18:22,890 --> 01:18:26,100 tracking was in fact losing lock. At that point, you know, 1278 01:18:26,100 --> 01:18:30,840 we really need to get a genuine FLIR, ATFLIR, expert to to 1279 01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:33,000 explain that. But these are things that actually are 1280 01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:37,320 resolvable. And I think we need to focus, a little bit of effort 1281 01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:41,160 on the things that we can actually figure out and knock 1282 01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:45,510 those off. So we can refine the boundaries of uncertainty. 1283 01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:49,890 John Greenewald: Well, again, I appreciate you, both of you and 1284 01:18:49,890 --> 01:18:52,500 your time and doing this and your thoughts and your research. 1285 01:18:52,500 --> 01:18:57,060 Both of you keep it up. You guys again, have my respect in 1286 01:18:57,060 --> 01:19:00,090 different ways for different reasons. So thank you very much 1287 01:19:00,090 --> 01:19:03,060 for that. And of course, thank you all for listening and 1288 01:19:03,060 --> 01:19:05,700 watching. This is John Greenwald, Jr, signing off. 1289 01:19:05,730 --> 01:19:06,720 We'll see you next time.