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UFOS, UAPS, and belief in God.
March 22, 2020
5:37 pm
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Dustin
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That's great. I appreciate that. Gives a man extra to think of. I believe a lot as you have written .

A few things I can think that counters that might be this.

I personally don't believe angels drive UFOs, or how we see these.

Why would God create anything to drive when thought is what propels them through time and space.

Next what do you make of some UFOs shooting down or at aircraft. Could be demonic but I don't necessarily believe that. God, Satan..etc is all spirit form which takes hold of a host, so to speak. Spirits don't have a physical form.

I'm from the teachings of a mr Marion brahnham, if anyone is familiar. He believed UFOs were angels. But I cannot.

So, if you are a stricter Christian, some could say a southern Baptist type, I only see two ways.

It's either UFOs and extraterrestrial are real, which there's physical and more than enough evidence, or what religion is tought is false. 

March 24, 2020
3:20 pm
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Josephus
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Dustin said
That's great. I appreciate that. Gives a man extra to think of. I believe a lot as you have written .

A few things I can think that counters that might be this.

I personally don't believe angels drive UFOs, or how we see these.

Why would God create anything to drive when thought is what propels them through time and space.

Next what do you make of some UFOs shooting down or at aircraft. Could be demonic but I don't necessarily believe that. God, Satan..etc is all spirit form which takes hold of a host, so to speak. Spirits don't have a physical form.

I'm from the teachings of a mr Marion brahnham, if anyone is familiar. He believed UFOs were angels. But I cannot.

So, if you are a stricter Christian, some could say a southern Baptist type, I only see two ways.

It's either UFOs and extraterrestrial are real, which there's physical and more than enough evidence, or what religion is tought is false. 

  

Hi again,

When I was considering whether there is evidence in the Bible of literal physical  craft used by angels, I thought Elijah's removal from earth by a physical chariot was absolute proof of that. Elisha, as he witnessed the event, even mentions "horsemen", in the chariot. I don't think these beings were from earth, but angels. If Elijah is to survive the trip off the earth, it makes sense to me that there had to be an environment in the craft for him to survive and breath in an earth-like atmosphere. There is no way I can believe that this chariot, that came from heaven, is not totally physical. 

The question arises, why did God use a ship of some kind to take Elijah, when He could have just supernaturally zapped him away? We don't have an answer. But I do believe it was to reveal that God can and will use a physical craft for His purposes. Consider how Jesus on earth could walk on water. But He used a physical boat 99.99% of the other times! Haha! 

There is also Scripture that mentions chariots being used at the return of Christ. Isaiah 66:15 - "See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." I think everything in that verse is to be taken literally.

When I studied whether God and angels ever appear in physical form, the answer was an obvious yes. Though they are called "spirits", they can still have a physical reality and not be a contradiction. We as human beings are spirit too, as well as physical. I've heard it stated over and over that God is Spirit, therefore He does not have a physical form. But God has appeared many times in a physical form. I also don't see why it can't be God's or angels own personal material forms. They don't need to borrow a host that is not their own. 

When Moses asked to see God's glory in Exodus 33, Moses was told to stand in the cleft of a rock. God would put His hand over Moses eyes and walk in front of him, and God would take His "hand" away for Moses to see God's "back parts". Moses was told that he would not be permitted to see God's face or he would die. To me, there is no denying that God is Spirit, but also physical as well. I think the same is true for angels. Sometimes they are invisible and other times they can be plainly seen. There are many examples of this throughout Scripture.

I know we are told that at the resurrection, we will have "spiritual bodies" like Christ had after His resurrection. And we know Jesus had a physical body following His resurrection that was literally touched by the disciples. We know Jesus also ate and even prepared a breakfast on a beach. Yet the Bible calls our future physical "heavenly" bodies "spiritual". 1 Cor. 15:44. 

In regards to ufos shooting at our own craft. Yes, I believe this happens. It could be satanic or it might be of God. It depends on the situation. Satan is the "prince of the power of the air." But we have many stories in the Old Testament of heavenly righteous angels attacking and killing human beings. The Sodom and Gomorrah story is a perfect example of how angels could completely wipe out earthly cities, if that is God's plan.

There are other times in the Old Testament when angels intervened in our wars and killed off armies. Who is to say that they still don't do these things at times today? If you have read many of the ufo books out there [Edit: and browsed websites such as this one], it appears that this has been well documented that unearthly craft still involve themselves with us and have definitely interacted with the military. I'm convinced that those at the top of the intelligence agencies and militaries of the world know that we are "not alone." 

   

March 25, 2020
8:15 am
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Dustin
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Well thought and said. That's very interesting. 

I guess that belief depends on what ways a Christian has been taught.

One more note.

All the people through the years that have seen beings, and Gave descriptions and people who alledge abduction. That throws a curve ball to that, in my belief as well.

Then you have, for example, Maj 12, and government having "clean up crews" for crashed craft and body recovery and supposed possession of alien bodies, this cannot be angels as we know or believe that they are.

March 25, 2020
5:43 pm
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Josephus
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Dustin said
Well thought and said. That's very interesting. 

I guess that belief depends on what ways a Christian has been taught.

One more note.

All the people through the years that have seen beings, and Gave descriptions and people who alledge abduction. That throws a curve ball to that, in my belief as well.

Then you have, for example, Maj 12, and government having "clean up crews" for crashed craft and body recovery and supposed possession of alien bodies, this cannot be angels as we know or believe that they are.

  

I have been deceived a lot by various pastors, teachers, books and ministries that put their own spin on lots of biblical topics. The more I studied the Bible on my own, the more I saw problems with much of what I've been taught.

I realized that the Bible itself warns us not to just accept blindly teachings that seem biblical on the surface. We need to be like the Bereans to check and study what we've been taught to see if the Bible really says those things being taught. This is why I have changed many of my beliefs over the years, simply by starting from scratch and by trying not to add or subtract from what I see in the Bible. It's true that a lot of Scripture is difficult and it's okay to have different interpretations at times. Various Bible versions also differ and can make things confusing. 

But to your excellent point. I believe that truth is stranger than fiction. I also believe this topic is highly complex. The more I study it, the more intricate it gets. I do believe that many of the stories of downed craft and dead bodies are true. And I agree that those captured bodies, if real, are not angelic beings. What I believe them to be are creations of the angelic beings. Robots of sorts.

I believe that angels, whether satanic or godly, are highly advanced beings. They can do what we humans can do and more. As we get more technically advanced, we are becoming more and more "exalted" like the angels. We are making robots and cyborgs and all sorts of AI now. We are conquering space and we can send drones and robots to perform work that we don't want to do ourselves. This is what I believe the angels of the dark side are doing with these little "alien" creatures.

Years ago I used to listen to ARUFON on shortwave radio. ARUFON stands for Amateur Radio UFO Network. The man that led it, I think he said, became interested in ufos and aliens one day when he saw what appeared to be an alien being outside of his house. I don't think he had an interest in the topic until that day. One thing he said about the being was that it appeared to walk very robotically. I have also heard others say the same thing. It would also make sense in that many describe these beings as looking identical, as if manufactured with the same mold, so to speak. But they could also be biological too. As we humans are also working on mixing machine with human and/or animal biology.

Regarding abductions. I believe many of these stories are also true. In one sense, you could say Elijah was abducted. At least it was the good guys in that instance, and he knew it was going to happen before hand!

One of the strangest and kind of frightening things in the Bible is the temptation of Jesus by Satan. Jesus was in the middle of the desert fasting, and Satan had the power to take Jesus and place him on a high mountain. Satan also took him away from the desert to the top of the temple in Jerusalem. We aren't told how Satan did this. But for a being that can go to God's throne in the third heaven one second and down to the earth in hardly no time at all, I think taking a person and moving him around the earth is no problem for him. God permitted Satan to take Jesus, the Son of God, and move him around? That sounds hard to believe, but I believe it. So I think God permits some people to be taken, but most must be returned. I do believe craft are used.   

Another section of scripture that I want to mention that convinced me of physical craft being used by angels is the story of Elisha and his servant. This is found in 2 Kings 6. The Aramean army, or Syrian army, depending on the translation, was surrounding Elisha and his servant. The servant was terrified, but Elisha could see armies of angels and "chariots" in the mountains that no one else could see. So Elisha prayed for his servants eyes to be able to see them. 

The point I'm making is that there was about to be a battle. God had sent these angels with chariots to defend the Israelites. If the job was to win the war, the angels obviously had to physically beat the Aramean enemy. This is why I'm convinced that these craft are 100% physical. Even if they are cloaked. Which we know is another aspect of the ufo phenomenon. Craft sometimes seem to disappear or appear out of nowhere. But they may have been there all along. 

April 11, 2020
2:32 am
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Dustin
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That's well thought out. I like discussion. 

I believe, and I've read many places, that UFOs or UAPs are always there in the skies but are cloaked.

My only difference is I personally don't believe or am convinced yet, they are angelic beings or are from God.

However, I've got an open mind. 

I wonder why most or any churches don't formally speak on this. I would imagine it would cast unnecessary doubt in ones faith.

April 11, 2020
2:56 pm
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Josephus
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Dustin said
That's well thought out. I like discussion. 

I believe, and I've read many places, that UFOs or UAPs are always there in the skies but are cloaked.

My only difference is I personally don't believe or am convinced yet, they are angelic beings or are from God.

However, I've got an open mind. 

I wonder why most or any churches don't formally speak on this. I would imagine it would cast unnecessary doubt in ones faith.

  

I think most churches stay away from discussing this because of the many different opinions about it. I've read so many different views from a supposed "biblical perspective", yet many come to totally different conclusions. Because of that, it can get controversial.

I once spoke to a fellow Christian and I asked him his opinion on ufos. He said, "There's nothing to it." When we discussed it further, he was of the opinion that it is just people who are delusional, or drunk or on drugs, or they are your average person simply misidentifying objects in the sky that have a completely earthly and/or natural explanation. Which I'm sure is true, some of the time. 

I definitely believe that we should be discussing these things in the church, even with the various contrasting opinions. Many people ask us what it is the Bible teaches on this topic and we all say something different.

I got into a conversation with a woman in my former church and I asked her opinion of ufos. She stated, "They're all demonic". I once held to this view too, but I had since changed my mind. I asked how she knows that it's all demonic. She said, "God told me". Well, I found out that God "spoke" to her about all sorts of things. I came to the conclusion that it was NOT God speaking to her. Instead of searching the Bible for her answers, she would brag about talking to God about all sorts of things and God would just audibly speak back. I have a problem with that.

Anyway, I used to believe that the so-called "angelic realm" was not a part of this physical universe, but exists in another dimension that is believed in "by faith". I used to believe that demonic beings would come out from other dimensions to ours and "pretend" to be aliens. Even many secular ufologists take "another dimension" view of ufos. I thought that that was what the Bible taught. But I was assuming a lot of things. It was also what is taught and assumed by most Christian leaders. It wasn't until I did a deep study on "Heaven" and angelic beings, and the various meanings of them that I changed my mind. 

One interesting fact that I discovered was the definition(s) of heaven had been changed in the popular Strong's Concordance. I have an old version of Strongs and there was NO mention of an "unseen realm" as a definition for heaven. A newer version I have added "unseen realm" to its definitions for heaven. I believe this definition was added simply because of people's beliefs, whether right or wrong.

We get into debates as to whether there is a heaven. Why? Because most have been given a wrong definition of heaven. We have been taught that heaven is an unseen place in an unseen realm. Since we can't see it, we therefore must believe in it "by faith". But, in the first three chapters of the Bible, heaven is described in the creation story only as the visible and physical realm. Not only is heaven in the visible realm, but "Heaven declares the glory of God." How could a place that we cannot see, (if heaven is another unprovable, unseen dimension,) "declare" anything?

When the Bible says there is to be a "new heaven and new earth", I believe it is clearly speaking of the physical universe. It has no reference to an invisible dimension. The Bible specifically mentions that the heavens are inhabited. Heavenly beings inhabit heavenly places. But there's more to it than that, as we are told that humans are there too. Elijah is there. Enoch is there, along with the souls of the saved dead, who wait for their resurrection.   

To me, the way I understand things now, I say everyone believes in heaven. The earth's air/atmosphere is heaven. Most call it the first heaven. The starry space is also called heaven, and most call that the second heaven. The third heaven is where God's literal throne is. In my opinion, the third heaven is not in another dimension. The third heaven is not where angels and/or demons reside. It is simply a place in the universe where God has set up His throne. I believe that the beings in heaven have their place in the starry space, or second heaven, IMO. I don't know of any verses that says there is any other "heaven" than these. 

In another sense, all of the physical creation is God's "throne." I believe that because of Isaiah 66:1-2.

"This is what the LORD says:

"Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.

Where is the house you will build for me?

Where will my resting place be?

Has not my hand made all these things, and so came into being?" declares the LORD." 

Sorry if I come off as preachy. I don't mean it to come out that way. I'm just telling you how I came to believe the way I do. Obviously, you have to make up your own mind. 

May 11, 2020
2:25 am
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I've done a lot of thinking about this issue, as well. I come from a scientific background and I used to be an atheist, but now I'm a scientific Christian. How is that possible? Well, my biggest inspiration was probably Dr. Bill Deagle, but David Icke, Alex Jones, and a few folks on YouTube were similar in that they were Christians but were also very well aware of aliens and global politics. Most New Paradigmers, as I call them (I won't use the CIA term if I can avoid it) are sadly weak in science, but Bill Deagle is basically a physics PhD who got pulled into being a medical doctor instead of being a physicist, so his scientific background and extraordinary memory gained my respect, so he became my respected paragon of living proof that a person could be both Christian and scientific.

How exactly do I integrate such seemingly opposing beliefs? It's not easy, and it's not easy to explain, either, but I'd say I use a combination of justifications and heuristics:

(1) Obviously not everything in this world is mutually exclusive. An extreme example is that in quantum physics an object can literally be in two places at the same time. Similarly, science need not be mutually exclusive with Christianity.

(2) Similarly, most measurements exist in a spectrum, not just as two discrete values like 0 or 1. Is the sky blue or black or orange or gray? It can be any of those colors, or any color in between, depending on the weather, the time of day or night, or the angle of the sun. Therefore a person's amount of belief need not always be 0% or 100%, either. In fact, a person's beliefs in any given claim are almost never at one extreme or the other. My belief in Christianity or literal interpretation of the Bible is therefore not 100%, either, but rather somewhere between 50% and 100%--enough to qualify as a Christian (since it's over 50%), but with a healthy margin of doubt. My belief percentage can and will shift as evidence changes, which is inevitable and logical and increases stability, so is nothing to worry about, in my opinion.

(3) The Bible is poorly written. Sorry to break it to you, but that's pretty obvious, so I'm just being honest. Even disregarding all the material that was censored from the modern day version, there are many annoyances, such as lack of reasoning behind the Jewish dietary laws, poor descriptions of the visions in Ezekiel, vagaries about the intent of the seeming injunction against gay sex, books like Job that were never intended to be taken literally, Jesus' strange omission of any mention of science or logic or astronomy, and so on. I don't think even the experts know which parts of the Bible were intended to be literal, and which weren't, so that provides a lot of leeway in interpretation. With all of these omissions, there is plenty of room for "Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention: God watches over other intelligent beings, too, not just us humans, and those other beings dwell among those bright specks you see in the night sky." Or, "Well, more technically, what Genesis calls a day was more like an eon, but it's easier for all those uneducated people to understand seven days." Or, "Exact sexual preferences are as irrelevant as exact preference in wine, but what the Old Testament meant is that balance, self-control, and keeping your mind on higher aspirations is the primary goal." People like Deagle and one Jewish acquaintance I knew expertly fitted science into these many holes of neglected clarity that exist in the Bible, and I respected that accomplishment.

(4) Despite the flaws of the Bible, there are clear-cut heuristic messages that are undeniable, and will always carry great wisdom, such as: get along with one another, be good, keep your passions in check, be wise, know good versus bad people by their actions instead of their words, don't lose sight of what you knew was good and bad after you become an adult, keep long-term issues in mind as  well as short-term issues, watch everything you do and say because you're being watched and tested and recorded, and so on. Such wisdom is like a general framework on which all subsequent details can be hung, scientific or not.

(5) Morality is a certain subset of wisdom, so morality is logically justifiable, and is the foundation of most everything else (except logic).

(6) Even Jesus was extremely logical, which is partly what made him so extremely strong at debate and at parables. Therefore logic is obviously not something to be thrown out the window just because you believe what a person is claiming. Logic is the basis of math, and math is more universal than our physical universe itself (another universe with different physical laws would still have the same math!), so it would be awfully hard to throw away logic.

(7) It became increasingly obvious to me that there were a lot of major mysteries in this world that weren't covered by science, yet science was supposed to be the supreme practice to trust. For example, ghosts need to be explained, ancient mysteries like how giant Egyptian pyramids and the walls beneath the Sphinx could be made in primitive times need to be explained, and certain extraordinary events like medical miracles or remote awareness that a relative has just died need to be explained. And UFOs. There are some really weird phenomena in this world, somebody must know the answers, so somebody has been holding back that knowledge from the majority of us!

(8) I became aware of how extremely censored everything is, especially science books, recreational films, the media, and even the lyrics of songs. Again, somebody is obviously pulling strings from behind the scenes, keeping us in the dark on some issues, and steering us in bad directions on other issues. That means that even science books cannot be trusted, since those are being censored or controlled as to what can be published. With that trust in science books gone, my foundation in atheism quickly eroded and I wasn't so sure of things anymore.

(9) I became aware of the extreme corruption and unreal levels of cruelty that existed at the highest rungs of society, which meant most everything we experienced was a deliberate deception for the purpose of some powerful person's minute personal gain, and the worldly focus of the rich and famous and powerful was clearly wrong since it was destroying society as well as the planet itself (the ecosystem). This implied that the way to be a good person was to do the opposite of what the Elites were doing, at least in many ways. I had long known that the best way to vote (e.g., regarding NAFTA) was exactly the opposite of whatever the politicians and big business were advocating, so this new awareness just reinforced that wisdom.

(10) At the same time I became aware that the Elites are heavily involved in Luciferianism or Satanism. Although this does not imply such negative spirit entities must really exist, in practice it does mean that the world is primarily aligned toward clear-cut wrongness, lies, and materialism, which is exactly what the Bible warned against, which makes the Bible much more believable nowadays. If the Elites are practicing a harmful philosophy while they have the power to influence our lives greatly, then in practice such spirit entities might as well really exist. Add to that the very heavy push of the Elites to microchip the world population and to control people through the food supply means that the world is very literally steering toward the Biblical prophecy  of a totalitarian antichrist, which again makes the Bible much more believable to me nowadays.

(11) I saw a video on YouTube once about supposed human communication with aliens. It said that when humans ask aliens for answers dealing with religion, the aliens become confused since aliens think of science and religion as the same thing, so aliens don't understand the artificial division in those topics that humans created. I don't know how authentic that information was, but I thought, "Wow, what a great philosophy!" That caused me to try to start thinking in the same way. If you've heard about the supposed powers of the pineal gland, or heard about mention of the Silver Cord in the Bible, or if you believe that what have been interpreted as angels or gods by primitive people were really visiting aliens, then you have some sense of how some religious topics and science topics can be integrated.

There exist three main sets of ideologies: religion, politics, and science. Aliens come under science, the New Paradigmers now understand what politics on this planet is really about, and it's becoming clear which religion was most accurate for predicting the future, therefore the way to go is becoming clear, at least to me. Note that those sets of ideologies evidently form a closed set, and that set is exactly this set of topics {religion, politics, science} that is well-known to be unwise for polite conversation since it typically incurs extremely hostile reactions because those topics form the foundations of our most cherished beliefs, in which psychologically we can't tolerate meddling. All these observations put together mean that anyone who has been able to fuse together all three sets of ideologies (SOIs) pretty much knows where it's at, as far as the big picture about human life on this planet. So far in my lifetime I have learned of only three people who have put together all these SOIs into an integrated model of the meaning of life, which in scope exceeds what the Bible alone can teach (since the Bible involves only one SOI--religion). Guess which people I found who have created those integrated models? Bill Deagle, David Icke, and Alex Jones--all New Paradigmers.

I plan to write up a summary of those three integrated models pretty soon. It will be sort of like a menu of what to believe in, at the highest level, although of course you're free to integrate the three SOIs in any other way you like... *if* you can think of a better overall explanation for how everything in life fits together at the highest level. Personally I have been unable to do that.

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