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The Existence of God
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Tairaa
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October 6, 2009 - 6:39 pm
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for one thing, evolution is not "being observed". now perhaps "micro-evolution" within things such as viruses, as well as clearly observed ongoing variation

Yes, it is being observed. Whatever the popular conception of evolution, the real concept of evolution is being observed.

Simple organisms mutate more quickly, of course, so it makes sense that the majority of speciation that we observe is in the form of parasite, bacteria, flora etc etc etc, rather then with mammals and other complex life forms.

"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."

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humphreys
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October 7, 2009 - 11:51 pm
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Funnily enough, creationists demand that we observe macro evolution in mammals in a laboratory, like the spontaneous creation of a new limb or something like a horse turning into a unicorn right before our eyes. They don't understand that that would be evidence AGAINST evolution, and evidence FOR creationism if it occured, as evolution is not supposed to happen that way.

They have it completely backwards and don't even see it.

What we really should be asking is "if animals really do just pop into existence like magic, why have we ever observed THAT in a lab?".

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

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Tairaa
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October 8, 2009 - 1:12 am
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"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."

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humphreys
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October 8, 2009 - 1:18 am
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"Tairaa" wrote: On that note, Humphreys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....H-DyPeNjgA

Hehe, my thoughts exactly!

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

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fortwynt
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October 9, 2009 - 8:01 am
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well, whatever we may be referring to when we say "micro-evolution", it is certainly observed in the lab, in nature, but I do not agree that a+b=c in this case...i.e...just because we observe this type of thing in micro-organisms, to me does not lead naturally to suggest such things happen large scale...nor do i believe anything close to that has ever been observed.

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humphreys
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October 9, 2009 - 2:01 pm
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By itself observed micro-evolution does not prove macro-evolution, but it certainly is suggestive of it.

Taken with other evidence for macro-evolution, the case is pretty much convincingly made.

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

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Tairaa
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October 9, 2009 - 8:28 pm
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In a constant effect in a short period of time small change is made it stands to reason that over a long period of time a large difference will be made.

"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."

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Dibs
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November 9, 2009 - 6:13 am
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"fortwynt" wrote: well, whatever we may be referring to when we say "micro-evolution", it is certainly observed in the lab, in nature, but I do not agree that a+b=c in this case...i.e...just because we observe this type of thing in micro-organisms, to me does not lead naturally to suggest such things happen large scale...nor do i believe anything close to that has ever been observed.

While I'm aware Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, they had this to say on the matter:

During adaptation, some structures may lose their original function and become vestigial structures.[144] Such structures may have little or no function in a current species, yet have a clear function in ancestral species, or other closely related species. Examples include pseudogenes,[145] the non-functional remains of eyes in blind cave-dwelling fish,[146] wings in flightless birds,[147] and the presence of hip bones in whales and snakes.[139] Examples of vestigial structures in humans include wisdom teeth,[148] the coccyx,[144] and the vermiform appendix.[144]

All the sources they had posted for their claims weren't online sources, or else I'd have linked to them. Anyway. That was taken directly from wikipedia's page on "Evolution"

However, I was able to find this, which at least confirms, that modern finless porpoise has hip bones. Now, if evolution did not occur in larger organisms, then why would a porpoise have hips? They don't even have fins there.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1529 ... dinalpos=2

Morphology of the modern cetaceans represents the results of adaptation of the ancestral terrestrial mammals to aquatic life through their evolutional processes. Some of the primitive fossil cetaceans are known to have both fore and hind limbs, whereas the pelvic bones of modern cetaceans are, in general, a pair of slender rod-like structures within the abdominal wall muscles just anterior to the anus with no articulations to the axial skeleton in both sexes. It is interesting and important to consider the causes and processes of how the hind limbs were lost and how the pelvis was reduced during the process of adaptation. In the present study, we tried to evaluate the topography and function of rudimentary pelvic bones of the finless porpoise (Neophocaena phocaenoides), one of the members of the odontocete cetaceans, with special references to the structures around the pelvic bones. Some soft tissues such as M. ischiocavernosus relating to the pelvic bone are transformed following the drastic reduction of the pelvis. This transformation tells us that the cetaceans adapted to the aquatic life during evolutional processes chose the tail flukes driven by the powerful trunk muscles for locomotion, instead of modifying the hind limbs into hind flippers as seen in pinnipeds. On the other hand, it is evident that a function of the pelvic bones of the male finless porpoise was supporting the penis as those of terrestrial mammals. It is noteworthy that the morphological features of the ancestral terrestrial mammals can be traced when they are carefully compared with those of the finless porpoise.

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