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frrostedman
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March 11, 2012 - 6:51 am
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"humphreys" wrote: Go back and read my post. At no point did I say you supported the method, least of all child abuse. I was responding to your description of the book, I have no idea whether you agree with it or not, but to me it is sick and twisted and a horrible false way to coerce a child into complying with your demands.

Radical and fringe, but I get it and respect your opinion.

Now who is twisting words? I would rather a very quick minor slap on the bottom to a "spock nerve hold".

However, I do agree that no pain whatsoever should be dished out onto a child, and if that makes me a radical, then great. The world is a pretty messed up place, as you'd surely agree, so it does not worry me to go against the grain. You would understand that yourself, I bet, as someone who is happy to do the same.

I do understand. I just don't agree with your position. Not that it necessarily means my opinion is superior but I've been around the block a few more times than you have and live in a different country. I've seen the failures of "time outs" and Montessori tactics. And I have countless friends who i've seen grow up respecting, loving, and admiring the very parents who would even go so far as to make them go out in the woods and fetch a switch from the ground that would be used for their punishment.

We are living in a world that is just coming to terms with things like homosexuality, and respecting people of different races, as a species we're a little slow sometimes, but thankfully we eventually get there and recognize our previous behaviour as wrong, that's why we don't burn as many witches these days.

Just because something has been done for a long time, doesn't necessarily mean a new replacement method is superior.

.... but it doesn't mean there is not a better way.

There was a better way. A long time ago. Somewhere near the River Delta between the Tigris and Euphrates. Now, children are born with the desire to do things that aren't right, and they must be instructed in some fashion or another. Again, maybe you're lucky, but most children do not always respond when their parents say "Stop doing that Jimmy, my friend."

For someone who cries foul about people twisting words you sure do like to do it yourself.

Touché. See below.

Pain is an evolved survival mechanism, it is very useful. That does not mean we can dish it out to others as we please.

That's great... but too bad I never argued in favor of dishing out pain "as we please."

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

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humphreys
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March 11, 2012 - 10:56 am
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"frrostedman" wrote: Not that it necessarily means my opinion is superior but I've been around the block a few more times than you have and live in a different country.

If the country is the problem, maybe it was caused by many years of doing things the wrong way?

I come from a very large family, as I mentioned, I have 3 sisters, and a brother. A child of my own, and my wife has another. One of my sisters has two children, another has one. I am in regular contact will all of them.

A small sample size, but I do have experience with kids.

How many children have you personally raised?

"frrostedman" wrote: most children do not always respond when their parents say "Stop doing that Jimmy, my friend."

No, that sounds lame and unlikely to work.

Take the kid aside, talk to him on his own level, explain why his behaviour is unacceptable.

If that doesn't work, we can explain to the kid what kind of punishments he is likely to receive if he doesn't do as he is told. Whether it be simply taking him home if he is out, removing TV and computer access, taking away toys.

The problem with hitting a kid is the kid learns that that kind of behaviour gets him hurt by that particular parent, so it's something he won't want to do, but he doesn't actually learn that it's wrong, or why. For instance, a parent finds his child smoking, so he beats him. The kid will make damned sure he doesn't get caught smoking by his parent. He may even be scared enough to never do it again. But it's forced coercion, it's not the child's decision, just like the Bible it is control through fear and not knowledge.

Chances are, when the parent is gone and the kid is on his own, he'll start again, as the source of the pain is gone and the kid has not learned that smoking is actually bad for his health and an undesirable thing to do.

"frrostedman" wrote: That's great... but too bad I never argued in favor of dishing out pain "as we please."

As we see fit? That better? To me there is little difference between the two statements. Basically, you're telling the parents to hurt their child whenever they feel it necessary, and a lot of parents will find it necessary over the most minor incidents.

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

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frrostedman
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March 11, 2012 - 11:02 am
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"humphreys" wrote: How many children have you personally raised?

My life experience with the subject doesn't require that I personally raise any children, but, if you need to know, the answer is 2.

"humphreys" wrote: No, that sounds lame and unlikely to work.

Take the kid aside, talk to him on his own level, explain why his behaviour is unacceptable.

If that doesn't work, we can explain to the kid what kind of punishments he is likely to receive if he doesn't do as he is told. Whether it be simply taking him home if he is out, removing TV and computer access, taking away toys.

To each his own. I find that strategy ridiculous, myself. Talk to a children on their own level? Yikes.

As we see fit? That better? To me there is little difference between the two statements. Basically, you're telling the parents to hurt their child whenever they feel it necessary, and a lot of parents will find it necessary over the most minor incidents.

"As we please" was a clear implication of doing so with impunity, with some level of enjoyment.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

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humphreys
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March 11, 2012 - 11:11 am
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"frrostedman" wrote: To each his own. I find that strategy ridiculous, myself. Talk to a children on their own level? Yikes.

Ever tried it?

Ever tried being friends with a child?

They're not gibbering simpletons, you know, and they're not so below us that we need to beat them into submission. They're just people, like us, but a little less wise in the ways of the world, of course.

I think you might be amazed how razor sharp children can be, all of them, not just the top of the class.

I hate the division that parents who hit their children set up, one of master and slave, it makes me cringe.

"frrostedman" wrote: "As we please" was a clear implication of doing so with impunity, with some level of enjoyment.

That's not how I meant it. My bad then.

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

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March 11, 2012 - 1:40 pm
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"humphreys" wrote: [quote="frrostedman"]To each his own. I find that strategy ridiculous, myself. Talk to a children on their own level? Yikes.

Ever tried it?

Ever tried being friends with a child?

They're not gibbering simpletons, you know, and they're not so below us that we need to beat them into submission. They're just people, like us, but a little less wise in the ways of the world, of course.

I think you might be amazed how razor sharp children can be, all of them, not just the top of the class.

I hate the division that parents who hit their children set up, one of master and slave, it makes me cringe.

"frrostedman" wrote: "As we please" was a clear implication of doing so with impunity, with some level of enjoyment.

That's not how I meant it. My bad then.

It's ok Jimmy. And hey, we're friends and I'm willing to talk to you on your own level. Next time you do it, I'm sorry but you'll have to go to time out without your Xbox for 5 minutes. 4 minutes on good behavior.

Ha! I bet you'll never do THAT again! :thumbup: :clap:

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

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humphreys
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March 11, 2012 - 3:07 pm
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Oh cool if we're playing this game do I get to beat you with a stick?

Please say yes 😈

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

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March 15, 2012 - 9:28 am
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"humphreys" wrote: Oh cool if we're playing this game do I get to beat you with a stick?

Please say yes 😈

You have no reason to beat me with a stick as I am on my best behavior. If you do beat me with a stick, you are a sick, twisted child abuser and should be jailed. Jailed alongside other men of your ilk who enjoy abusing others. I'll get my popcorn ready, and you dust off those knee pads in the attic... you'll be needing them.

So yes, please, please hit me with your stick. And try to make it happen within the next 3 minutes if possible. :whistle:

*tosses bag in microwave and presses the popcorn button* :thumbup:

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

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March 15, 2012 - 11:40 am
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Nah, you'll enjoy it too much.

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

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at1with0
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March 15, 2012 - 8:02 pm
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Apparently, calling yourself a soldier of Christ has been seen to be a sort of incendiary speech that invokes images of rampaging through an Afghan village with a flame thrower torching all the Korans and slaughtering those who won't bow to Christ.

[Image Can Not Be Found]

This would be 180 degrees out from the impression I got.

"it is easy to grow crazy"

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bionic
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March 16, 2012 - 9:52 am
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Rambo Jesus??

Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams

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