On omnipotence | Religion Spirituality | Forum

A A A
Avatar
Please consider registering
Guest
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_TopicIcon
On omnipotence
Avatar
at1with0
Member
Forum Posts: 9244
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
January 3, 2012 - 9:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Can an omnipotent being draw a square circle or violate the laws of logic?

"it is easy to grow crazy"

Avatar
humphreys
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2150
Member Since:
August 21, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
January 3, 2012 - 10:20 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

No. That would be nonsensical.

Might as well ask if an omnipotent being has the power to not exist. Wouldn't that be ironic? If God was so powerful, he made it so that he never existed, and in his almighty power, made the atheists right.

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

Avatar
at1with0
Member
Forum Posts: 9244
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
January 4, 2012 - 3:13 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Here are some laws of logic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_clas ... #Aristotle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....f_identity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....tradiction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....ded_middle

Here are Euclid's five axioms which generates Euclidean geometry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.....oms#Axioms

As you know, Einstein made use of non-Euclidean geometry in his general relativity. The non- part comes in when the fifth axiom is no longer assumed.

What makes Euclid's five axioms flexible but Aristotle's three axioms of reason not flexible?

If I, for example, no longer assume the first axiom (of identity), then I can say S can be a square and a circle simultaneously.

Even QM is saying that one particle can exist in two places, which makes me suspicious of the axiom of identity.

The axioms of Aristotle have an application of course but I do not think they are inviolate, any more than Euclid's axioms can be bent or broken.

If everything requires proof, where is the proof of the three laws of thought? And if there is no proof, then they are axioms. Axioms are not inviolate.

"it is easy to grow crazy"

Avatar
at1with0
Member
Forum Posts: 9244
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
January 4, 2012 - 3:14 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

In addition, btw, in a metric space with the taxicab metric, lots of circles are squares :mrgreen:

"it is easy to grow crazy"

Avatar
humphreys
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2150
Member Since:
August 21, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
January 7, 2012 - 8:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I think it's more a problem of language. "Square" and "Circle" are man-invented descriptions. If S were a square and a circle simultaneously, it still would not be accurate to call it a "square circle", imo.

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

Avatar
mrshumphreys
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 431
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
January 7, 2012 - 8:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Everybody knows non-Euclidean geometry is a sure path to awakening the elder gods.
Ia Cthulhu! Ia Dagon!

"It's like arguing with a brick wall, except the brick wall thinks you're an idiot, and thinks it's winning." - Humphreys, that sexy beast.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Avatar
at1with0
Member
Forum Posts: 9244
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
January 7, 2012 - 8:48 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

"humphreys" wrote: I think it's more a problem of language. "Square" and "Circle" are man-invented descriptions. If S were a square and a circle simultaneously, it still would not be accurate to call it a "square circle", imo.

If something was square and circular why would calling it a square circle be inaccurate?

"it is easy to grow crazy"

Avatar
humphreys
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2150
Member Since:
August 21, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
January 7, 2012 - 9:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

"at1with0" wrote: If something was square and circular why would calling it a square circle be inaccurate?

:problem:

One implies that is a shape is somehow both a square while simultaneously being a circle (square and a circle), while another implies the shape is a circle that is square in shape (a square circle).

A red bus is a bus that is red, not a bus that is also a red.

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

Avatar
at1with0
Member
Forum Posts: 9244
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
January 7, 2012 - 9:10 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I guess I'm talking about something that is a square and circle simultaneously.

If one no longer assumes the law of identity, S can be both.

"it is easy to grow crazy"

Avatar
humphreys
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2150
Member Since:
August 21, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
January 7, 2012 - 9:16 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I would agree that God could create an object that is both a square and a circle then, yeah, but most of the challenges like "can God make a rock so big that he can't lift it?" are obviously impossible, and nonsensical.

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris

Forum Timezone: America/Los_Angeles
Most Users Ever Online: 288
Currently Online: Willease
37
Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
greeney2: 10318
bionic: 9871
Lashmar: 5290
tigger: 4577
rath: 4298
DIss0n80r: 4162
sandra: 3859
frrostedman: 3816
Wing-Zero: 3279
Tairaa: 2843
Newest Members:
Dhommhee Jang
Elizabeth
Jeff
Rodisco123
Gene
RHJ.Mengerink
Todd
C
Murray
ninurta
Forum Stats:
Groups: 8
Forums: 31
Topics: 9259
Posts: 124699

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 2
Members: 25022
Moderators: 0
Admins: 2
Administrators: John Greenewald, blackvault