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Can We Solve for Poverty and War?
December 24, 2014
12:06 am
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Aquatank
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Firstly, how are you defining "Liberty" my understanding of that word is that Liberty are the Freedoms that the Law permits as Montesquieu put it. If the laws are set forth by the people and/or their representatives I see no loss here of liberty here.

There is no need to force people into arcos, the basic fact is once they start going on line and prove they actually do work people will naturally gravitate to living in them, much like they trade up in technology people will naturally trade up in living conditions and work conditions given the option. If I would say to someone "Hey How would you like to have a home on a 10 months rent to own, and grow your own food saving you $350 dollars a month, that's $4200 a year out of the $20K you make." I'd have a stampede on my hands.

People already live in the basic conditions an arco offers 36% of Americans live in Apartments & Condos. It's not that big a step. City's have elected governments, a city in one structure would also have an elected government, it's not that big a step. Cities all have infrastructure needs so do arcos, same thing not a big step. 5% of businesses are owned by their workforce and have better longterm survival odds and general pay for their workers in comparison to the totalitarian system that currently is in play so they get a perk on this. The biggest differences here are not a matter a Freedom or Liberty the biggest differences are efficiency, people who live in arcos don't need as much nor would they want thse things as much, work, play, shopping all walking distance indoors no snowmageddons or rain to worry about, zero pollution and health benefits skyrocket. The basic fact is people will want to live there, and when they start up the people who should be offered places first are the lowest economic 20-50% because they have the most to gain from this. You can have democracy in arco, what you cannot have is free market economy because these old system economies are exactly what causes the world's problems. Human society is an organic super organism, and the free markets and other older systems is a cancer that causes circulation blockage among other malignancies. While an arco must start off with these problems it is designed to evolve past them.

December 24, 2014
6:11 am
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gudskepteacal
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Wow, so much to digest; nice post. But, I still think you're naïve for believing this community model will be the firestorm for worldwide cooperative change. Your idea sounds intriguing, but have you really pondered Wing-Zero's post and considered it's meaning? I remember seeing something on John Stossel's show about a social experiment similar to what you describe on an island somewhere although nothing else about it since. You are talking about people living 150 feet below ground, right? Are these containers or home units like standard rectangular shipping containers? Have you calculated project startup costs for initial excavation and construction; money will be used to build it, right? What is the repayment plan for those costs or will the whole thing be bankrolled with private party endowments? At what point do you break with that monetary system and internalize the financial structure; what does that look like?

"Aquatank" wrote: Firstly, how are you defining "Liberty" my understanding of that word is that Liberty are the Freedoms that the Law permits as Montesquieu put it. If the laws are set forth by the people and/or their representatives I see no loss here of liberty here.

"Aquatank" wrote: You can have democracy in arco, what you cannot have is free market economy because these old system economies are exactly what causes the world's problems. Human society is an organic super organism, and the free markets and other older systems is a cancer that causes circulation blockage among other malignancies. While an arco must start off with these problems it is designed to evolve past them.

First off, you really think you can squeeze that much dedication to sustainable living out of enough people to make a difference; we complain when we have to get up to fetch the remote out of arm's reach.
Second, you are correct with that definition and applied to the citizens of your experiment. All being consenting adults and aware of the societal dynamic they wouldn't consider it a loss of liberty to obey the laws of the cooperative.
Third, many economists and political analysts have the opinion that we haven't had a true 'free market' system for quite some time. You deride the system, but fail to acknowledge it's power and flexibility; have you seen the Dow lately, it did pretty good. Which isn't necessarily something to celebrate because there's also this other not so good thing called a 'derivative bubble', but that's another topic. In short, China, now our superior in terms of economic size, has surpassed us by adapting OUR free market system; not us to them. Does that not mean ours is the best? Sure it's weakened, unkempt and run by some of the most uncouth characters around, but give it a chance, take off the shackling controls and there's no telling what she can do next.

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." - James Madison

December 24, 2014
3:27 pm
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Aquatank
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Actually "below ground" sounds a bit harsh, My original feasibility idea was to use an existing rock quarry and then put solar collecting glass over it using cargo containers. I also looked at the square footage of the cancelled Paris Triangle and calculated 8 of these could hold approximately 20000 people and could be connected via skyways and have wind turbines mounted between them, HOWEVER, and this is why I am looking at low cost issues the average skyscraper costs $800 Million dollars each and I felt that impetus that architects have towards expensive megastructures is what really puts things on the back burner. This is why cargo containers are appealing far less expense, instead of 5 years or more of the USA's GDP we are looking at less than I guess 10% percent of a single year GDP for its populace. I have not figured out the entire design , nor do I expect to, these are quite a bit of housing units and spaced wrongly will adversely affect the living standards.

The problem with free markets are they are inherently based on the accumulation of wealth, competition to have the biggest most vast accumulation of wealth becomes the driving force behind the economy, this in turn creates social hierarchies and that means a separation of class with the lowest classes of based on the classist tool known as racism which keeps the lower classes in conflict with each other so they do no not question the social order that is the an inverted top heavy pyramid of wealth distribution next to a regular bottom heavy pyramid of population.

Stossel believes all commons fail, this is untrue, and there are several examples that refuse failure. The problem is that mixed economies work best, see Norway for example, we call the socio-democracies, they have large sectors of public owned industry and large sectors of private owned industry. However as I was pointing out, and maybe it got lost in translation, is that private does not necessarily mean the normal totalitarian model of a small number of owners that reap most of the profit with an underclass of workers, but that each business can operate as a co-op worker owned worker operated democratically, this satisfies the requirement that it is not publicly owned but privately owned and it keeps the circulation of income more at the local level ensuring better living standards of the community.

The large distribution of resources is something that needs to be worked out during the transition period, each module or city sized arco would have to get to the point where recycle and production were nearly equal before it would not need to import. Exports interestingly enough may switch entirely from hard goods to electronic data (movies films games, virtual worlds, licensed 3d printer object plans etc)

January 1, 2015
2:44 am
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Taeko
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First I will bump this topic to the head of the list as the posts and link read very well to me. Next the Thor mentioned in the lead post came to me and was very upset that I accused him of such bad behavior. He is actually a very good spirit and as a muse sends good words as AmaterasuSolar has written. So I apologized for my first short post. The Thor I was thinking of is a spirit of the same name but extremely evil and invoked in Nazi black magic rituals. His purpose it cause people to **** each other. Just read of all the evil the Nazis did. Some people I have been helping are still afflicted by this spirit long after that world war.

When you can go out and see the universe, who wants to go look at a Russian submarine? (Melvin C. Riley, US Army Remote Viewer)

January 16, 2015
4:47 pm
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Aquatank
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Today these maps came out in article, in them you can clearly pick out roads and major ones. Remember these maps are only a small portion of the USA but the roads are the usual width. imagine how much asphault and concrete, power and communication lines and maintenance costs go into maintain all those roads and the huge number of buildings in that network, and then imagine that single thread-like line of what the I-80 arcology would be and how much resources & money the US could save while improving the lives of all its citizens, as well as the rest of the world if they went to arcolgies as well . These pics give you an visual idea of how much we currently waste and how much room we have to improve if we start building long linear arcology modules for our nation along I-80. http://inhabitat.com/awe-inspiring-maps ... lly-under/

January 17, 2015
8:23 am
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gudskepteacal
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You think free market systems are racist; our crony capitalism system is racist? Sure you don't mean just classist in nature? Social classes are nothing new and all lower class to poverty level people have to struggle to make it; of ANY color or culture. It's not, today, purring along like we would like, but it still offers the best opportunity to help the most amount of people. The people/families at the very top (the .1 percent of the 1%) mastered the art of wealth accumulation long before America's economic system was here.

Again, good luck on that project. Send me a brochure if it ever gets off the ground.

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." - James Madison

January 17, 2015
2:37 pm
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Aquatank
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Racism is a form of classism and thusly Racism is one of the most common tools used in classism. Scientifically Human Races don't exist, not even as Breeds, because everyone on this planet is so close genetically that ANYONE we make friends with has as much genetic material in common with ourselves as a someone who shared a great great great grandmother with oneself, and those who are not friends are also only a few more generations removed. So all that Racism, is in fact just a way to entrench the classist hierarchy and keep the people from uniting and dismantling that hierarchy and class system.

The classist hierarchy cannot exist if power is taken away from it. the Aristocracy which controls the world's oligarchies is dependent on doing three things. 1) Having people believe the Aristocracy deserves its power and wealth. 2) Bottle necking production & resources thusly controlling prices and scarcity. 3) Bottlenecking monetary wealth thusly controlling people's incomes and livelihoods and making them subservient in the hierarchy.

What a national Arcology does is create resource abundance this eliminates problem 2. By creating worker owned worker operation business system that serves each modules commerce needs it creates situation that eliminates problem 3. Because worker owned worker operated systems are democratic and that Arcology government should also be democratic we eliminate problem 1. Then there is the problem of racism, this is difficult to disentrench but not impossible, the things above help to remove it but they cannot work alone, the solution is partly education to show the ills of using this disunity tool, the other is because Arcologies are new communities housing can be completely intermixed so that no floor or wing or module is uniquely one "race", gender, gender orientation, culture this fosters an environment where differing people become friends and intermix proving the value of the afore mentioned education.

January 18, 2015
6:03 am
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gudskepteacal
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Some of what you say about racism and how the power elite use it as a tool to manipulate and control the masses may be true, but I don't think our current capitalist system, which arguably took shape around early 1900's, was crafted with racist objectives in mind. The system doesn't care about the color of your skin, just the color of your money. Some of the wealthy industrialists and business tycoons of the day who were close to the process may have been racist, but they weren't lobbying and massaging for anything having to do with racism. I think in their mind, no matter what color you were, competition was to be obliterated. I don't think this "Aristocracy" you speak of has any qualms whatsoever in keeping the other 99.9% of world population in existing social/economic order; right where they can see them.

I have to give it to you on the self sufficiency model though; it never hurts to know how to provide for you and your family. Who knows - maybe you're right and I'm all wrong about this.

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." - James Madison

January 18, 2015
4:54 pm
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Aquatank
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I freely admit the Arcology model isn't perfect. Example: Say we had could build ones with similar foot prints to the conceptual it would house 1 Million people on 8 sq. Kilometers. We could then look at a situation like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and say Israel has a population of 8,238,300 so they would need 9 Pyramids for a total of 72 square Kilometers out of the 20770 Square Kilometers of Israel and Palestine has a population of 4,550,368 so they'd need 5 Pyramids for a total of 40sq Kilometers out of the 6220 square Kilometers of Palestine. we could then say hey they are separated and self sufficient and they live in much better conditions now. And while yes it would reduce the conflict, it wouldn't stop it because the conflict has to with ideological religious position over holy sites shared by the three major religions and the bottle necking of access to those sites. So yeah it has a flaw when it comes to that kind of issue.

BUT on the economic power class issue, In my very humble opinion, this is actually social structure that can be overcome in the planning and execution stages. Democratic Worker Owned Worker Operated prevents trickle up evaporation of wealth from the populace towards a financial Aristocracy. By having self sufficient model for each module ownership is based solely in the general populace and those worker owned companies. Both of these provide preventative measures much like having regulation saying a person can only have a home size within the Arcology based on the number of people living in that home, one cannot own multiple home units. But in the planning and execution stage is where Arcologies can succeed or fail in who finances them and builds them and how well or ill they intermix all the various groups of the population. If for instance a typical rightwing Aristocrat builds the model that person is going to use some sort of cronyism to assure his cronies get the best housing placements, square footage, and that the Arco is specifically designed for that and then it will slowly change to lesser quality the further down the hierarchy. That's a failure IMHO. But suppose a progressive community funds a grassroots effort and builds it properly with the intention of creating a democratic egalitarian community that works for all that will most likely become a success, and it is this egalitarian model I am advocating.

January 24, 2015
8:12 am
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gudskepteacal
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This clarifies some of my earlier posts and goes to my reasoning on why we cannot solve for poverty and war...

Top 1% Has 65 Times More Wealth Than The Bottom Half And The Global Elite Like It That Way

"As we previously noted, the 85 richest people in the world have about as much wealth as the poorest 50% of the entire global population does. In other words, 85 extremely wealthy individuals have about as much wealth as the poorest 3,500,000,000 do. This shocking statistic comes from a new report on global poverty by Oxfam. And actually Oxfam's report probably significantly underestimates the true scope of the problem, because Oxfam relies on publicly reported numbers.

As Michael Snyder examines, the rot goes deeper...

Submitted by Michael Snyder of The Economic Collapse blog,

At the very top of the food chain, the global elite are masters at hiding their wealth. In fact, as I have written about previously, the global elite have approximately 32 trillion dollars (that we know about) stashed in offshore banks around the world. That would be about enough to pay off the entire U.S. national debt and buy every good and service produced in the United States for an entire year. These elitists live on an entirely different planet than the rest of us do. In fact, according to Oxfam, the richest one percent of the global population has 65 times more wealth than the bottom half of the global population combined. ...

... The following is an excerpt from the executive summary for the agenda for the 2014 World Economic Forum...

"At an international level, the formal architecture for global governance was not designed for the interdisciplinary challenges and collective action problems of today. As a result, international cooperation has yet to fully enter the information age and capture its associated productivity gains."

For the global elite, the answers to our problems always involve more centralization and more "global governance". In other words, the answers to our problems always involve giving them more control and more power.

The elite never actually want the pendulum to swing back in the direction of the "little guy". The elite are generally pleased with how the game is being played because they are winning."...

Keep Reading: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-2 ... ite-it-way

It's not that changing that dynamic is a bad thing only that it seems next to impossible without some kind of historic, monumental change in people.

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." - James Madison

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