April 9, 2009
Historical evidence does support that Humans are amazingly smart, and don't need outside help. How do I explain their science: research, testing, observation, problem solving, and intuition the same as we use today.
Humans were around for over 200000 years, and 50000 years ago look at the leaps that happen all around you everyday, those same kind of leaps had been happening and building since when we were australopithicenes 3900000 years ago by 50000 years ago we started to really put things together, between 10000 & 20000 we'd learned farming, and animal domestication. Our common knowledge base just kept building up and it continues to do. By 8000 Years ago we'd got into monumental architecture and astronomy. These aren't earthshaking changes in science its just yearly build up of a knowledge base that we use today and they applied to the extent that they could with what was available and useful same as us. To say we needed help outside from offworld is an insult to our species and our genetic cousins.
You want to know what happened that all this knowledge was lost: wars, natural disasters, and dictatorships. Much of the problem lies with what humans did in between 300 and 1600 AD and how it led to extensive damage to humanity's knowledge base. The Fall Of the Empires, The Crusades, The Inquisition and Burning Times, The Discovery and subsequent Destruction Of The New World, the fires in numerous libraries and courthouses. Archaeologist are still piecing together what the people before 300 knew. In point of fact some people are still puzzling over little bits and pieces of how we did things just in the last 300 years which I'm sure some people will chuck up to offworld help, I know a some loons are already caliming ET helped with the microchip and lasers. Its an insult to all the people who kept building and innovating the common knowledge base and an insult to our species and our cousins to keep on putting forward the ET hypothesis. Furthermore to have off-world help they'd need FTL technologies and Power technologies that they themselves would have to build from their own evolving common knowledge base, where did they get theirs, more off world help? Not to mention even with FTL and a parsec a day travel time it takes a long to get anyplace in this galaxy. Let me give you an example: Lets look at a typical long whaling voyage they took 8 years, lets say that our intrepid ETs will take 8 years getting here and 8 years getting home total 16 years. At what is considered possible at sublight speeds thats 50% SOL thats anything within 4 light years, basically Proxima centauri, at lightspeed anything within light years you can see the 26 nearest out to 11.7 lightyears http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~dolan/conste ... arest.html have we found any planets in those, no. So then you have to go to the fictions of FTL at a parsec a day (about the speed of the original Battlestar Galactica and about Warp 9.9 in Star Trek Next Generation.) That will put everything within 9527.96 lightyears in range. This is a map of all the stars within 10000 light years, see all those white dots those are stars, now who ever ET is they have to find a pre-electricity using planet, AKA Eart, that has life but no signals indictating it out of all those white dots and all the planets orbiting them. Its a delusion to believe in the ET hypothesis regarding pre-electronic ages, you have to start at the Marconi signal of 1897 and work light years out from it which indicates the current planets in range are all within 112 light years of recieving that first signal http://www.solstation.com/stars.htm.
"CodeBlack" wrote: Actually the floor is 350 feet long. The first 150 feet is within 0.020 inches of perfect (1 part in 90,000), the entire 350 feet is within 0.250 inches (1 part in 16,800). What, they thought the faithful would be down on the floor with micrometers and lasers? We can't duplicate this. You don't achieve accuracy by accident. Limestone in the GP was cut to 0.010 inch tolerances. Again, why?
Because prior to the great pyramid the egyptians had already been building large tombs (mastabas) for centuries, and accumulated a large amount of knowledge and skill in monumental masonry, became obsessed with building ever-larger and more spectacular tombs, and had created a series of pyramids that become increasingly complex over time. The most important rule they learnt was that small mistakes and inaccuracies from the start would magnify as a structure was built upwards, and so in order to build something as vast as the great pyramid, they knew before they even began that an incredible degree of accuracy would be needed to ensure it would remain structurally sound to the top. Such accuracies are humanly achievable without modern technology if the builders are dedicated enough. Human ingenuity and the adaption of known techniques, skills and knowledge should not be underestimated.
If the GP was built by aliens millennia ago, and all others just poor copies by later egyptians, why does the archeology show a clear series of development in the egyptians' tomb-building from flat mastabas to increasingly larger pyramids? If the GP was already there as an inspiration wouldn't they be striving to build large pyramids from the beginning?
Have a little faith in the power humanity to achieve great things 🙂
April 9, 2009
You logic doesn't hold. We cannot duplicate or even come close to the accuracy of the GP, even with all our built up knowledge 4,500 years later. What technique did they use? Do you have any idea how hard granite is to cut?
The other structures outside of the Giza Plateau may have been built by Egyptians who at first were completely incapable of building pyramids. Or they may also have been built by aliens who themselves did not have all the expertise and knowledge to build the end product, the GP. Just because they were advanced doesn't mean that every member of the race has all the built up knowledge. Can you make a light bulb?
And you don't need anywhere near the level of accuracy they achieved to produce the GP. It has excess accuracy to an incredible degree. What is the purpose of the flat floor? There is nothing on top of it. Its inaccuracy is not being added to anything.
And copper was the hardest material they had for tools.
April 9, 2009
The GP is truely amazing. My argument is the layout. The vent shafts and strange passage ways are just some of the feats that just should'nt have just went into some tomb for a king in the day. Sure, the base is an amazing feat in it self on how accurete is was layed out. But lets look at the granite blocks. They were cut from a near by quarry, CUT FROM. The cuts made on these blocks just could not have been made in those times with out diamond tip saw blades. Steel does not work well enough and they didn't have steel. The cuts were so precice on all four sides they say you can't get paper between the seems anywhere. Now, if some how you get the sides cut, there is the bottom, straight across and then lift it up and out of the pit. I'll give them some credit as to moving it but still i'm not to keen on how it has been explained moving it on logs and all. With the logs, a block that large, it would eat up logs, per block, per distance from the quarry to the site. Many per block. To do the GP it would have takin a forest to move all those blocks to the site. Then setting the stones. You just couldn't just set it there and push it into place. You can't get enough people in place to push a stone that big no matter where it is sitting. Weighs to much and not enough people to be able to put there hands on it to push.
I just think we just could not built it in those times with out something we are missing. Help came from else where i think. To much we just can't explain. To much.
I do know how hard it is to cut. It cannot be done with the copper chisels the Egyptians used on the limestone blocks. There are two possible ways the pyramid builders created the large smooth-sided granite blocks:
1. They were sawed out of the quarry face using an abrasive such as quartzite sand, then pounded smooth using dolerite.
2. They were split from the bedrock using iron chisels, and then further split to give smooth flat surfaces of required dimension.
The first would be extremely time-consuming, but given that relatively few granite blocks were used in the Great Pyramid compared to softer blocks, it would be viable, with perhaps a small cadre of specialists used to create these important blocks slowly over years until needed. The problem here is that later pyramids often used increasing amounts of granite, Menkaure's entire base is made of the stuff, but maybe the egyptians had refined and quickened the technique by this time.
The second is far quicker and less labour intensive. It's such an obvious option that the only glaring objection is that it requires the egyptians to be using iron tools several centuries before they appear in the archaeological record. However, I think that the egyptians using a small stash of specialist tools made from imported iron that were a closely guarded masonic secret to create their granite masterpieces is far less a leap of imagination than suggesting aliens made them.
As for the snug fit of these blocks in situ, couldn't this effect be created simply first by accurate splitting in the quarry, then by the process of scraping against other blocks already in place when being positioned on the pyramid?
You have to realise that for every web-site and book making sensational claims about the geometry and impossibilities of the great pyramid, there are many others happy to provide explanations of what is possible. For example the vast flat base could have been created using water levels in trenches to keep the site level. The accuracy of the dimensions, though impressive, is easily achievable today and probably back then if they had the will to solve the problem. We know for a fact that the egyptians used all kinds of mathematical methods and geometric markers to maintain straight lines and angles, its just a case of figuring out how they managed to extrapolate these techniques so that over the 350ft length it deviates by only 19cm. As I said before, you have to give these people some credit for solving the engineering problems. They are still homo sapiens with the same brain power as we have, and were building using techniques honed over millennia. It only seems so unlikely to us because we long ago abandoned these techniques, and no longer have the mindset for coming together as a nation to achieve grand schemes like this.
You are right to say it was over-engineered. That's true of most grand projects. The great pyramid is no-doubt an expression of Khufu's ego. It was incredibly accurately built not because it needed to be, but because the pharaoh wanted it to be. He wanted it bigger than anything yet built, with significant dimensions in mind, lined up with important star associations, and with a degree of accuracy to reflect his power and prestige. He wanted to create a legacy that demonstrated his will, his power over his subjects and their devotion to him such that they would labour for a generation to create a monument far more impressive than practicality demanded.
April 9, 2009
I have seen both of those techniques tried, the 1st one 2 different ways. It took the guy forever just to make a dent. It would have taken him a year to cut one stone and that kills the stone placement rate. The 1st technique used something like a drill and a band saw, both with abrasive material, took forever just to make a groove. Guy worked on it for like a week and he was exhausted. Forget it man, no way. The water and chisel technique was also very slow and very inaccurate! You ruin more stone than you get.
And the water level does nothing to help you place stones.
Its one thing to move a big stone across open land. Its quite another to life it up and place it precisely. You can't get enough hands on it. Some of the stones are so heavy no known material that you could attach to it would be strong enough except maybe heavy gauge steel cable and the Egyptians didn't have that. All they had was copper.
Plus none of this explains WHY they would even bother with such excess accuracy.
I do know a way to move heavy stones across open ground. Just wrap the stone in a doughnut adapter. Then roll it. They probably put a small flat on it to keep it from rolling away. I got that idea by noticing the Egyptians' fascination with the dung beetle. The dung beetle does something very similar to move heavy loads, he forms the dung into a ball and then he rolls it. The dung beetle was sacred to the ancient Egyptians. But how are you going to get that stone hundreds of feet in the air to place it?
One guy tried a giant kite as a lifting device. ROTFL, they almost killed somebody trying that!
Btw, your argument about built up inaccuracy in invalid since if any stone was not perfect they could just compensate with the next stone cut. You don't need each stone to have perfect accuracy. We do this with modern construction. If you have a series of pieces that are off, just modify the next piece to make up the diff. You only need overall accuracy.
April 9, 2009
I forgot to mention, hey, how do you explain the "parts" that were removed, which obviously serve to concentrate vibration and sound in combination with the descending passageway's corbelled ceiling, magnifying and sending the sound to the "king's" chamber. There were even tuning devices in the GP originally and there was a compensating dampener you could adjust to "shut it down". And there is evidence of chemicals being used in the GP, there is acid salt and base salt residue still detectable. What the hell does Khufu need with chemicals?
And of course we should not forget that mummies were never found in pyramids (except the one that was much later converted into a storage area which has been explained and was not at Giza). And why no hieroglyphics?
There is whole lot more going on here.
And why do you think its a leap to suggest that aliens built the GP? Its a big damn universe and we are a long way from figuring out all the physics. You can get around Einstein's speed limit.
I agree the dolerite and stone saws seems unlikely, which is why I believe the egyptians used closely guarded iron tools to split the rock. No sawing or countless years of hammering and pounding.
There's plenty of evidence to show how they were moved to the pyramid, images of teams dragging stone blocks on wooden sleds (not perishable rollers), along roads reinforced with wooden sleepers and greased with a lubricant, probably just silty water brought up from the river. So long as you accept egyptians had access to iron a little earlier than orthodox archaeology suggests, there is no real mystery to the creation and transport of blocks of stone.
There is more of a mystery to the raising of the blocks. Its either big ramps or clever cranes / leverage devices. I prefer the latter, a lot less labour to create than large ramps, and easier to remove afterwards. Still, raising huge blocks of stone with neolithic knowledge is a skill we today we can't yet be sure of, but the egyptians had some 8000 years of megalithic tradition to guide them.
I imagine no mummies or artifacts were found because grave robbers had long since removed them. Modern scholars were hardly the first to enter the pyramids, it's well known that arab robbers looted the great pyramid after the muslim invasions, and who knows what they found and whether others had been there even before them.
Chemicals? Dunno, but it doesn't have to be mysterious. The babylonians are believed to have used electrolytes for metal galvanisation for ornamentation, hence the babylonian 'batteries'.
Maybe the lack of hieroglyphs was Khufu's choice, maybe they ran out of time, maybe....whatever! There could be a thousand earthly reasons why they chose not to adorn Khufu's burial chamber with pictures. Again it's a case of looking for mysteries when there doesn't have to be one.
When I look at ancient mysteries like stonehenge or the great pyramid, I just see amazing feats of human ingenuity. I'm not saying its impossible for aliens to visit earth, I just don't think its the most likely explanation. I like to give humanity some credit, especially when such artifacts are still so obviously rooted in the human traditions, they are just the most extreme and most impressive examples of human achievement that only require a certain leap of ingenuity over less impressive examples of the same type of constructions.
There are lots of other henges and megalithic monuments throughout western europe, stonehenge just happens to be the most complex, but doesn't make it beyond human capability. Likewise, the great pyramid is the most complex pyramid but in terms of technique is not that much of a leap in ingenuity above others, especially when you see a good series of development, particularly under khufu's father Sneferu, from one to the next. You then begin to realise it is just the culmination of a long tradition, knowledge building on knowledge until a nation can come together and create something seemingly impossible for a ruler who demanded absolute and unnecessary perfection.
April 9, 2009
Given the mainstream account of how the Great Pyramid was built, you would have to place, in their final position, a block every 20 seconds. That cannot be done with any machine, no matter how many you use, and you certainly cannot do it with human power. Humans cannot run that fast, much less perform the arduous and complex task of placing stones in the manner accomplished in the Great Pyramid, in the time given. You can't put a enough people on the work. Ropes aren't strong enough.
All events in history do not belong in one pidgeon hole. History is far more complex than that. And you should not attempt to compare the Great Pyramid to anything else. It stands alone. It is an anomaly.