The Black Vault Message Forums

Discover the Truth!        

Religion & Spirituality

William Lane Craig

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby humphreys » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:26 am

at1with0 wrote:Between two points there are infinitely many points in between and that is what I think is causing Frosty to assert that the distance between two points is infinite.


If two points are in exactly the same position, they should not be considered two separate points, do you agree?

In which case, there must be a finite non-zero distance between every two points, yes?

Any non-zero number multiplied by infinity must equal infinity?

In which case, if there are an infinite number of points, the total distance must also be infinite. The total distance cannot actually be infinite, therefore there cannot be an infinite number of points, as far as I can see. Again, we have to accept the minimum size plank length to get around such paradoxes.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
User avatar
humphreys
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:51 pm
Location: Inside your head.

Postby greeney2 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:47 am

What ever the measurement is, is the number of points are the expressed increments. The count of those increments are the number of points and the size of each increment is defined as the scale, and limits of the measuring instrument. Inches, feet, miles, light years.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9669
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby at1with0 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:35 pm

humphreys wrote:At1, out of interest, do you have an actual degree in mathematics or are you just an amateur fan, so to speak?

Not meaning to detract from your argument if you don't have one, I'm just interested if you have credentials.


I do have a degree in math and I consider myself to be an amateur fan.

humphreys wrote:
at1with0 wrote:Between two points there are infinitely many points in between and that is what I think is causing Frosty to assert that the distance between two points is infinite.


If two points are in exactly the same position, they should not be considered two separate points, do you agree?


Yes.

In which case, there must be a finite non-zero distance between every two points, yes?


If we're talking about points in a Euclidean space such as a line, plane, or 3d space, then between any two points there is a finite non-zero distance. In the "pathological" case when the 2nd point is the 1st point, there no longer are two points and the distance between a point and itself is zero.

What's weird is that in such a context, there are infinitely many points on the line segment connecting two points.
Any non-zero number multiplied by infinity must equal infinity?

It depends on how small that non-zero number is and how big that infinity is. For example, if the non-zero number is an infinitesimal and the infinity is, say, the reciprocal of that infinitesimal, then the product of the two is an appreciable, finite number. However, in many situations, depending on the two inputs, a non-zero number multiplied by infinity is infinity.




In which case, if there are an infinite number of points, the total distance must also be infinite. The total distance cannot actually be infinite, therefore there cannot be an infinite number of points, as far as I can see. Again, we have to accept the minimum size plank length to get around such paradoxes.


The length of a point is zero so we have zero times infinity which is "indeterminate," meaning that it is not a specific appreciable number.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9183
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby greeney2 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:10 pm

My son in law has a Masters in Mathematics and teaches high school math, his Father also teaches Calculus in one of the gifted kids schools in LA high school, has several Masters, one in Mathematics. Both of them are just natural teachers--yes orangetom public school, they definatly are not where your public school opinions come from.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9669
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby at1with0 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:23 pm

"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9183
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby greeney2 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:29 pm

I'm sure they know who he was, probably every LA city school system teacher does. My son in law would be too young to have worked with him If my son in laws Father crossed paths as coworkers, it would have been early in his 35 years, and Escalante retired in 1991 according to the bio. Its a school system as big as San Francisco, Oakland, and San Jose combined I'm sure.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9669
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby humphreys » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:07 am

at1with0 wrote:It depends on how small that non-zero number is and how big that infinity is. For example, if the non-zero number is an infinitesimal and the infinity is, say, the reciprocal of that infinitesimal, then the product of the two is an appreciable, finite number. However, in many situations, depending on the two inputs, a non-zero number multiplied by infinity is infinity.


Ok, that makes sense.

at1with0 wrote:The length of a point is zero so we have zero times infinity which is "indeterminate," meaning that it is not a specific appreciable number.


Gotcha.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
User avatar
humphreys
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:51 pm
Location: Inside your head.

Postby khanster » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:52 pm

User avatar
khanster
 
Posts: 693
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:18 am

Postby at1with0 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:48 am

Nice tie. :D
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9183
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby frrostedman » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:47 am

humphreys wrote:Either that or mathematics itself is insufficient to deal with the issue perfectly. The distance between two points cannot actually be infinite, even if mathematics might suggest it is, otherwise motion would be impossible.


how so?
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
User avatar
frrostedman
 
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:01 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Religion & Spirituality

  • View new posts
  • View unanswered posts
  • Who is online
  • In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
  • Most users ever online was 292 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest