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William Lane Craig

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby orangetom1999 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:41 am

Chicken or egg....chicken or egg...chicken or egg????

You guys know this is a chicken or egg debate right??

Once you establish two points ...the distance is finite...it is not infinite.

Using two points to describe infinity doesn't make good nonsense but it is politics.

Infinity is not the same thing.

This is substance verses form....chicken or egg.

Just like the body politic often does. Throw in some emotions to make it stick and turn it into Jerry Springer. Then some name calling and labeling.

So what do logical reasonable intelligent men do..they switch to trying to define the distance between to finite points to define infinity. Makes perfect sense to me!!

How many pages of this stuff???!!

Jerry....Jerry ....Jerry!!!!


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Postby humphreys » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:56 am

What isn't just "politics and emotion" to you, orangetom?

I'm amazed that you can shoehorn in the exact same response regardless of the discussion!

Blah blah public education blah doesn't make good nonsense blah emotional response blah drama queen blah blah politics blah ishmael etc.

By the way, you'll find it is the people on your side of the fence who are actually stating the distance between two points is infinite, so I am really baffled as to what you're implying this time. I mean, obviously it's to do with public education, but beyond that?

To quote at1 "I'm afraid you're confusing that which you don't understand with that which doesn't make any sense."
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

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Postby orangetom1999 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:55 am

Humphrys,

By the way, you'll find it is the people on your side of the fence who are actually stating the distance between two points is infinite, so I am really baffled as to what you're implying this time. I mean, obviously it's to do with public education, but beyond that?


Yes, I knew when I posted it as to who was who on this issue. Changes nothing.
Nothing to be baffled about....but watch that public education..it can baffle you at times.

With that I am headed to the "Nothing Box."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjnLLw5BTmc

Thanks,
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:58 am

humphreys wrote:
greeney2 wrote:
humphreys wrote:That was certainly one of your better posts! :thumbup:


Maybe because I can spell mathematics correctly now! :lol:

I'm surprized to hear you say this becasue of the opinion you have about the soul.


I don't agree with your thoughts on the soul as I don't believe in it, but I still liked your post it seemed well thought out and interesting.


Thank You Humphreys, that thought of mine only just came to mind, so I worte it down. I'm not too sure I actually believe that idea of the soul my self, its just food for thought.
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Postby at1with0 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:10 am

humphreys wrote:I think all of these issues regards infinity are solved if we accept that there becomes a point in nature where you cannot divide by two anymore, something like the plank constant.

I was waiting for someone to bring that up. woot


Either that or mathematics itself is insufficient to deal with the issue perfectly. The distance between two points cannot actually be infinite, even if mathematics might suggest it is, otherwise motion would be impossible.


The math does not suggest this; for one, the infinite series 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 +... converges.
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:13 am

humphreys wrote:I think all of these issues regards infinity are solved if we accept that there becomes a point in nature where you cannot divide by two anymore, something like the plank constant.

Either that or mathematics itself is insufficient to deal with the issue perfectly. The distance between two points cannot actually be infinite, even if mathematics might suggest it is, otherwise motion would be impossible.



I'm sure I do not know enough about math to have this issue correct concerning infinity, potential or actual, countable and uncountable as I've seen defined looking some of it up.

It does show, and we have all pointed out some areas of Math that result in some of these things. The concept of any measurement depends on to what increments you want to express it. The size of the desk, or distance between our homes is countable but only in sensable increments, that are also usable. Obviiously the smallest increments to measure with would be how many atoms wide is it? You would next ask, what atom, they are all different too? If I got in the car to head over for Thanksgiving dinner and asked, "How may atoms is it"? I doubt if we have a number with that many digits. It isn't countable, but it is countable in miles, or blocks, or minutes of driving. Again, it gets back to agreed upon rules of Mathematics ( :thumbup: ) that we have a concenceous about, and agreed upon increments or rounding. Math is an approximation, with a tolerance + or -.
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Postby at1with0 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:31 am

There is a book that I read while young that really got me excited about math.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Mathematical- ... 0738208353

The ability to use numbers is so basic to our existence that we rarely realize how sophisticated our number system is. It was not always so: early number systems were crude and cumbersome. Clawson takes us on a mathematical adventure that reveals the history of numbers as a reflection of the evolution of culture. He shows how this science was born out of necessity in agriculture and commerce, not out of virtue. As our technology progressed, so did our math, and from the Chinese, Mayans, and Greeks came new numerical concepts and increased abstractions. The views and discoveries of Pythagoras, Descartes, Gauss, and perhaps a dozen more heavy-hitters are discussed, with Clawson maintaining a sense of humor to keep it enjoyable. Even those with little knowledge of formal mathematics will find the first half of this book easy going; it gets a little sticky later, delving into irrational, infinite, and "really big" transfinite numbers. The text becomes pure philosophy at this point, but if the reader can stick with it, the experience will be worthwhile. David Siegfried --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.


Note that the text provides a good introduction to how infinity comes up in set theory.

The following article on distance might be more dizzying than enlightening:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance

Between two points there are infinitely many points in between and that is what I think is causing Frosty to assert that the distance between two points is infinite.
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:48 am

You definately have a real math background for beyond mine At1. After I thought about it, I was wrong about my 2 points make a circle, again confusing terms. I think many terms are being confused in these conversations among us, who do not have a math major background. When I thought aobut it, confusing points and distance is one of those issues. Nothing can be infinate that you know the end ponts of, its obvious a desk is lesser length than a room, so can't be infinate length. I do not know the terms but some numbers may never result in a ending decimal point of 0, like pi. The decimal of the individual "part" of the increments expressed may never be realized, but that is not infinity IMHO. It just means it is a uncountable number. Or more accurate no instrument with that resolution of measurement exists.
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Postby at1with0 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:11 am

"it is easy to grow crazy"
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Postby humphreys » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:21 am

At1, out of interest, do you have an actual degree in mathematics or are you just an amateur fan, so to speak?

Not meaning to detract from your argument if you don't have one, I'm just interested if you have credentials.
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