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Postby DIss0n80r » Sun May 08, 2011 2:03 pm

at1with0 wrote:Thanks.

DIss0n80r wrote:What if self-description is ultimately arbitrary?


The description is arbitrary. What is being described...not so arbitrary.


And if the described is ultimately isomorphic with description?
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Postby at1with0 » Sun May 08, 2011 2:27 pm

The description is still arbitrary. We could shift languages, for example.
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Postby DIss0n80r » Sun May 08, 2011 2:31 pm

at1with0 wrote:The description is still arbitrary. We could shift languages, for example.


That doesn't really address my question.
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Postby at1with0 » Sun May 08, 2011 2:48 pm

You'll have to forgive me.

Is your question equivalent to:
If the description is ultimately isomorphic to the described then is the description still arbitrary?
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Postby DIss0n80r » Sun May 08, 2011 3:44 pm

at1with0 wrote:You'll have to forgive me.

Is your question equivalent to:
If the description is ultimately isomorphic to the described then is the description still arbitrary?


If the described is isomorphic with description, ultimately, then the division itself is arbitrary.
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Postby at1with0 » Sun May 08, 2011 4:45 pm

If the structure of descriptions is isomorphic to the structure of reality, yes.
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Postby DIss0n80r » Sun May 08, 2011 4:49 pm

at1with0 wrote:If the structure of descriptions is isomorphic to the structure of reality, yes.


Does reality have a structure? Is it describable? Would it have to be describable, in order to be a structure?
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Postby at1with0 » Sun May 08, 2011 5:00 pm

D: Does reality have a structure?

A: A strong case can be made for a positive answer, for whatever that is worth.

D: Is it describable?

Yes but it's not going to be easy to convey. There is structure in what the description points to.

D: Would it have to be describable, in order to be a structure?
Well, technically no. But I guess that depends on what counts as a description. Is there a structure that defies description? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes by a simple application of a pigeon hole - type argument: there are only countably many descriptions but uncountably many structures, ergo, there are structures that defy description. Reality is not one of them.
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Postby bionic » Sun May 08, 2011 5:30 pm

well..maybe you can make a map, eventually..like a globe is..realizing that the map is just a representation, and is not the thing, itself..and that's about as close as you can get without merging into it, getting lost in it evaportating and just becomeing part of it
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Postby at1with0 » Sun May 08, 2011 5:41 pm

Drawing a basic map of reality is something I've been trying to do. It's one possible approach of many.

In the end...A map is supposed to help you navigate, and not just look pretty, hanging on a wall. The map I have in mind might or might not help do that.
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