The Black Vault

bionic wrote:I think more often we know but don't understand something..and maybe sometimes we may understand but not know something..
I know circular thought, again..
This is all leading somewhere..not sure yet
going with it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzNu9wUO-YM

It makes sense actually. Like this friend of mine who I think understands math but doesn't know it.

I'm sure pretty much everyone you come across doesn't know math, to you..must feel sorta..isolating..a gift..yet..a curse
A man that see's in a blind world..a mixed blessing, I'd think

<--this is me...thinking

at1with0 wrote:

DIss0n80r wrote:What really makes any statement (such as 2 + 2 = 4) true?

Is it possible for a truth to exist that absolutely cannot be known?
If so, what makes it true?

If nothing existed, would the truth still exist?
Would it still be true that nothing existed?

Very interesting questions, Beavis.

Checked the wiki article on it...seems more dizzying than enlightening.
It seems like statements can have various degrees of truth.
Absolutely true (tautological)
Conditionally true
False
None of the Above.

Perhaps truth is most useful as it applies to the analysis of language. Certain words like or and if are placed under scrutiny and one defines a compound statement such as 2+2=4 as one of the above four categories. Many utterances fall into the none of the above category such as "I am qweasdzxc".

It's all easily defined within the confines of math but many would say that math is a model of reality...and not reality.

Like I said, more dizzying than enlightening. Nothing here that anyone doesn't know...

Thanks, butthead. Is truth simply circumstantial? Is truth merely a product of relation-checking?

Is it inherently a product of dualism? Can there be "something" beyond truth and falsehood?

bionic wrote:I'm sure pretty much everyone you come across doesn't know math, to you..must feel sorta..isolating..a gift..yet..a curse
A man that see's in a blind world..a mixed blessing, I'd think

<--this is me...thinking

He'll get over it.

oh, I'm sure
with all the mapping and butterfly collecting and such..he will be just fine

"It's good to be the king"
-Mel Brooks

bionic wrote:oh, I'm sure
with all the mapping and butterfly collecting and such..he will be just fine

"It's good to be the king"
-Mel Brooks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AddZi8QntR8&feature=fvst

One way or another, I'm convinced that truth does exist. Call it a leap of faith if you will. Faith that there is something that language is describing.

You asked, "If nothing exists, would truth still exist." In the back of my mind, I keep thinking how to phrase things to include the possibility of this being somehow disingenuous (simulated, holographic, imagined, etc.). So I would ask "If what we perceive is not the truth, then would truth still exist." And we're in a similar conundrum to the one presented by the statement "nothing is absolutely true."

Truth at its core transcends just language's attempt to describe it; I believe there is something that language is describing.

Language is all metaphorical, no? The words are (usually) not what the words describe. Utterances fit into the four categories, with a possible fifth being "indeterminable". But the categories themselves, are they arbitrary? I could label them I, II, III, IV, and V...then WHICH category would correspond to truth? Perhaps you could say that the category that includes the statement 2+2=4 is the one that corresponds to truth. Perhaps truth is what language is mapped to in that category.

There is another issue which is proof. Even in math, there are things that are truth that defy proof (a la Godel's Incompleteness theorems). So I seriously doubt that proof is required for something to be true. What constitutes proof is an agreed-upon convention anyway.

So it comes back to what I first said. I am convinced that there is truth, which kind of ties into the power of belief thread and it reminds me of something some famous dead white guy said: Convictions are prisons. But then again they say the truth shall set you free.

Yes, I know...I'm just barely scratching the surface.

bionic wrote:I'm sure pretty much everyone you come across doesn't know math, to you..must feel sorta..isolating..a gift..yet..a curse
A man that see's in a blind world..a mixed blessing, I'd think

<--this is me...thinking

I wouldn't say I know math. I know of math. Maybe if I had a few PhDs. I'm at the base of the mountain, if that. I think I know the basics. I know enough to know how much I don't know. And that's just math humans have discovered, let alone what aliens have discovered.

at1with0 wrote:One way or another, I'm convinced that truth does exist. Call it a leap of faith if you will. Faith that there is something that language is describing.

You asked, "If nothing exists, would truth still exist." In the back of my mind, I keep thinking how to phrase things to include the possibility of this being somehow disingenuous (simulated, holographic, imagined, etc.). So I would ask "If what we perceive is not the truth, then would truth still exist." And we're in a similar conundrum to the one presented by the statement "nothing is absolutely true."

Truth at its core transcends just language's attempt to describe it; I believe there is something that language is describing.

Language is all metaphorical, no? The words are (usually) not what the words describe. Utterances fit into the four categories, with a possible fifth being "indeterminable". But the categories themselves, are they arbitrary? I could label them I, II, III, IV, and V...then WHICH category would correspond to truth? Perhaps you could say that the category that includes the statement 2+2=4 is the one that corresponds to truth. Perhaps truth is what language is mapped to in that category.

There is another issue which is proof. Even in math, there are things that are truth that defy proof (a la Godel's Incompleteness theorems). So I seriously doubt that proof is required for something to be true. What constitutes proof is an agreed-upon convention anyway.

So it comes back to what I first said. I am convinced that there is truth, which kind of ties into the power of belief thread and it reminds me of something some famous dead white guy said: Convictions are prisons. But then again they say the truth shall set you free.

Yes, I know...I'm just barely scratching the surface.

Good post.

What if self-description is ultimately arbitrary?

Thanks.

DIss0n80r wrote:What if self-description is ultimately arbitrary?

The description is arbitrary. What is being described...not so arbitrary.