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This is why majority in US oppose gov't healthcare

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Postby frrostedman » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:20 pm

Everyone denies it. But death panels are real, and an inescapable, necessary component in socialized, government-run healthcare.

Everyone we talk to that lives in England talks about how dreamy and wonderful their healthcare system is and how any reports to the contrary are all lies.

Listen. Here in America the way it is, I can see a world-class doctor, whenever I want, for $20.00 ... to me that works just fine. We don't need this socialized healthcare bit.

Here is some of that true stuff that gets suppressed.......

U.K. Professor: Doctors Using ‘Death Pathway’ to Euthanize Patients
Posted on June 21, 2012 at 8:58am
THEBLAZE.COM

Patrick Pullicino, a professor of clinical neurosciences at the United Kingdom’s University of Kent, has some disturbing news for terminally ill patients within the U.K.’s healthcare system: it is that up to 130,000 patients may have been killed before their time.

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The Daily Mail reports Pullicino saying the Liverpool Care Pathway, a protocol doctors can use when patients are not expected to recover which he likens to a “death pathway,” was used on 29 percent of the 450,000 people who die in National Health Services hospitals each year.

According to the Marie Curie Palliative Care Institute, LCP is “used at the bedside to drive up sustained quality of the dying in the last hours and days of life.” A patient’s/family member’s guide to LCP states that this pathway could involve the following: stopping any medication that is no longer helpful or prescribing new medication; stopping unnecessary testing; and, depending on the situation, stopping administration of food and water.

According to a healthcare provider’s guide, LCP has been recommended in several prominent papers and by organizations throughout the 2000s. Before enacting LCP, a “multidisciplinary team” evaluates the patient’s situation and all the possible options. If the patient is “diagnosed as dying” then LCP can be enacted after communication the diagnosis to all those involved.

Pullicino though has said that too often patients could live longer before they are put on LCP, citing the claims that they were within their last hours and days as “palpably false.”





Here’s an example Pullicino provided to the Daily Mail:


In the example he revealed a 71-year-old who was admitted to hospital suffering from pneumonia and epilepsy was put on the LCP by a covering doctor on a weekend shift.

Professor Pullicino said he had returned to work after a weekend to find the patient unresponsive and his family upset because they had not agreed to place him on the LCP.

“I removed the patient from the LCP despite significant resistance,” he said.

“His seizures came under control and four weeks later he was discharged home to his family,” he said.

The patient’s extra 14 months of life came at considerable cost to the NHS and the taxpayer, Professor Pullicino indicated.

He said he needed extensive support with wheelchair, ramps and nursing.

After 14 months the patient was admitted to a different hospital with pneumonia and put on the LCP. The man died five hours later.

To Pullicino, the lack of evidence used in some cases for initiating LCP makes it an “assisted death pathway rather than a care pathway.” Pullicino said that predicting someone’s last days is scientifically impossible.

The Daily Mail reports that Pullicino is not alone in his concern for LCP. Three years ago, it states, other prominent professors and healthcare professionals said LCP was a “backdoor” for euthanasia.

The Daily Mail does note a spokesperson within the Department of Health saying they don’t recognize any of the figures cited by Pullicino.

Life News and National Right to Life News, among other pro-life sites, have reported on the “shocking” claims made by Pullicino. Life News reports American bioethicist Wesley Smith saying this only serves to who that the U.K.’s National Health Service is collapsing and is “only going to get worse.”
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:54 pm

The one thing I learned when my grandmother passed away, about medicare was that once you are stabalized in the hospital, off of IV's or any other hook ups, you either go home, a rehab facility if you are deemed able, or go to a convelesant home if they deem your care is "custodial care" only. In other words, if they think you can not recover, you are deemed terminal, and medicare only pays for 30 days of convelesant care. They are not going to go spending the farm on you if they can get away with deeming you unable to recover from a catastrophic condition, by proceeding with operations or proceedures.

It will be the fox guarding the henhouse, as to those decisions, where those deciding will have strict guidlines.. All ready medicare does not pay doctors anywhere near what they should, and carve their billings down far more than insurance companies they are providers for. It will boil down to the money they will never see, so they will be farming out the old folks to convelesant care, where medicare will be cutting you off, and letting you die. They aim to take considerable funds out of medicare for the premiums and funding for all those who will qualify for Obama care, that may be 35, 40, or 50 years old. We paid into this medicare system for 40 years for care after we are 65 years old, not for the insurance for currently uninsured people. They intend to greatly reduce the coverage we have, and the things they will consider treating as you get older.

The elderly, and the baby boomers are all entering retirement age, and the SS pay out plus medicare will be a big burden, which they knew would someday arrive. We have arrived, and now the government wants to renig on what we paid into our entire working lives, plus use our funding to fund medical coverage for ages that was never intended for. You will not see the President, or any other Senator or Congressman, have the same coverage as everyone else, they will not have anything taken from them, which is the best medical plans you can probably have.

If you want to see what will probably be the legal avenue for victims of this, you only need to look at the SS adminstrations track record, for granting permanant disability status to people forced into early retirement due to injury or illness. Just about everyone is turned down routinely, and ends up in a legal battle usually with attorneys, to get what they legally qualify for. SS contends that even ill or injured people can work in some other capacity, and may retrain you, and also could care less if the only jobs may be in Maine, if you are from California. They contend if you can't walk or stand, you can work a desk job. You have to be illiterate, uneducated, and no skills above ditch digger, or they contend you are able to work in a reduced capacity. It takes forcefull legal help to get this disabilty, what do you think they are going to do to old people, on their last legs, too sick to fight them? Like fighting a giant corparation, they have time to let you suffer and die, long before you get them into court.
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Postby rath » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:43 am

greeney2 wrote:The one thing I learned when my grandmother passed away, about medicare was that once you are stabalized in the hospital, off of IV's or any other hook ups, you either go home, a rehab facility if you are deemed able, or go to a convelesant home if they deem your care is "custodial care" only. In other words, if they think you can not recover, you are deemed terminal, and medicare only pays for 30 days of convelesant care. They are not going to go spending the farm on you if they can get away with deeming you unable to recover from a catastrophic condition, by proceeding with operations or proceedures.


It sounds to me that if you had ever experienced a truly free & universal health care system that your views would be much different.

It seems to me that if you had ever lived in a universal health care system such as Canada's, Australia's, Germany's, Frances. ect ect .... you would hold universal health car to be a fundamental & basic human right.

However, because You live in the USA you have no experiences of what a real working health care system is.

Fact is im sure the USA treats it health care system much like it does every other government programer.
Wreck it completely.


I have no doubt that even if the USA ever did introduce a truly universal health care system it would still be inferior & completely incapable of operating as a success in any form.

Why ?

Because, the USA would do to any universal healthcare system what they do to all successful programs and initiatives.

They would completely cock the entire program up with all there bickering whining, & lobbying, until the entire program has been changed, watered down & destroyed.

Only existing in some pathetic unworkable version of it's once mighty self.

After all, this is what the USA does with everything.

Waste, Complain & destroy.
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Postby rath » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:02 am

frrostedman wrote:Everyone denies it. But death panels are real


The importance of working capital management for hospital profitability: Evidence from bond-issuing, not-for-profit U.S. hospitals.

/The_importance_of_working_capital_management_for.99976.aspx
http://journals.lww.com/hcmrjournal/Abs ... blishahead

Costly U.S. health system delivers uneven care: OECD
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/ ... NN20111123

Patient Died at New York VA Hospital After Alarm Was Ignored.
http://www.propublica.org/article/patie ... as-ignored

Veterans Are Dying Because Some VA Nurses Don't Know What The Hell They're Doing
http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... a-hospital


VA hospital may have infected 1,800 veterans with HIV
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-30/us/v ... l?_s=PM:US

It's time you faced facts, the US healthcare system is a third world joke.

& it needs fixing.
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Postby humphreys » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:14 am

Not a great sample size of course but the treatment my wife has got here in England since moving from the US has been amazing. She has had completely free dental due to being pregnant and has had treatments we could not have afforded in the US, and they have bent over backwards in the hospitals to give her extremely good precautionary checkups and the like in the run up to the birth.

I have been really, really impressed.

My experiences of health care in the US were awful.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

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Postby rath » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:27 am

Humphreys, American's just don't get it.

They Don't know just how poor their healthcare system is. & their lack of understanding as to how a universal healthcare system works, just fuels their stupidity.

the Fact is, .........

if they took all the half arsed healthcare systems they have in the USA, from the HMO system to the Public hospitals, & university based hospitals, to the war veteran hospitals ... ect ect

They could save trillions of dollars, and have a far superior & more efficient healthcare system.

But instead they choose a third world system that help nobody but the people / company's who own & run the system for their own financial gain / needs.
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Postby frrostedman » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:10 pm

Like I said. I can see a world-class doctor, with no waiting time, any time I want, for $20.00 per visit. If Australia has something superior to that, let's hear it.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby frrostedman » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:21 pm

Look y'all. The point is this:

Once a government takes over health care, death panels become a must. It's a numbers game and once someone is deemed terminally ill, they are immediately cut off from care and left to die, in order to control costs. Also, because the government system is willing to pay doctors (who essentially become public sector employees) any decent money, people quit seeing the health care industry as a viable option to make a good salary. The more intelligent people will opt for other career paths, which over time will severely diminish the quality of care available. And since health care is "free," the number of people seeking this "free" care will increase. Increasing numbers of patients combined with less doctors and diminished quality of service means longer and longer wait times to see a doctor. Pure and simple.

The reason I put quotes around "free" health care is because it isn't free at all. It's just taken out of your check in the form of taxes. The people who are in good condition end up being forced, through taxes, to pay for health care they don't need, and the terminally ill are killed off to keep costs down. That means the only people left that actually benefit from this "free" health care are the ones who need a lot of attention and treatment but aren't dying. And for those people the only benefit is reduced costs, but weighed against long wait times and great sacrifice to personal time mitigates that lone benefit anyway.

Greeney's horror story about the Medicare/Medicaid system is just more evidence of what happens when a government runs health care.

Americans who can't afford health care insurance simply go to hospital emergency rooms and get their care for free. This drives up health care costs and insurance premiums yes, but the point is, we are ALREADY paying, as a country, paying for free health care for those who can't afford it. The only REAL problem we have in the US is the out-of-control, frivolous malpractice suits against doctors for multi-millions of dollars. If our government were to tackle that problem, both political parties would get behind it and things would be a lot better.

The US simply doesn't need a European model socialized government controlled health care system. And the country's majority agrees with me on that.
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Postby greeney2 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:12 pm

I'm not against a socialized medicine system, but Obama care is not it. It is very common in Canada for long waits to be seen, and very long waits for surguries, and it is a fact that many come to the United States to have critical operations, so socialized medicine is not all what its cracked up to be. I am impressed Humphreys wife recieved dental care becasue she was pregnant, but you may want to get another opinion about waiting for that until after the birth. High risk pregnancy sometimes they do not want to undergo any dental anestetics, I'm not sure what the risks are having even routine cleaning done. Some advocate taking antibiotics for teeth cleaning, has something to do with the plack in the bloodsteam, infections, so that may be a pregnancy issue. My daughter had to delay wisdom teeth pulling until after. In the USA if you are lucky enough to have any dental or eye care (which I had while working, but not with retirement insurance), coverage is really just a token coverage, and pretty worthless. It was not worth the money to contiunue it, it was better just to pay for cleanings, etc, after you factor the premiums.

The Obama plan to force every small business to provide medical insurance will break them. And forcing people to buy medical insurance will be deem unconstitutional, I'm almost positive. Medicare is also not free, if anyone thought it was. Part A everyone gets by paying into it your entire working life, seeing nothing until you are 65. that covers major hospitialization. Part B everyone pays for monthly out of your SS, which is regular Doctors visits, AND ALL OUTPATIENT SURGURY. Out patient surgury is not covered under part A, so you must have part B since most every surgury nowadays is outpatient. Presciption part D you pay extra for with medicare. Obama care intends to use 500,000,000 from our medicare funding, to pay for people in the other program. THAT SHOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL, since the tax we paid for 40 years of working built that fund of the over 65 people only, and we had to wait to be able to benifit from it!

They want to force everyone to buy insurance and employers to supply it, but with what kind of coverage? Thats the question, how big will deductable be, with the plan have daily limits, or lifetime limits that are very low, what will copays be. Nobody said it will be a 80/20 plan either. If you drive a car with only the minimum state required liabilty, you are crazy, since todays costs are 10 times higher, ou would be underinsured. Medical is 10 times worse, when you can rake up $200,000 before you can blink your eye.
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Postby humphreys » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:17 am

Well greeney the dentists know what is and is not safe to do during pregnancy. They did a root canal, pulled another in the back I believe, and are going to do some fillings.

She gets all dental work completely free here up to a year after the birth, I think. She was having a really bad time in the US with her teeth but we just couldn't afford to get the work done.

In the US, we just had an awful time of health care all round. I think if you either have a good job which has you covered, or you're poor enough for them to get you on the free care plans, then things are okay over there, but if you're kinda in the middle ground between poor and well off, and you don't have the right kind of job to get you insurance, then it's going to be horrendous for you.

Some examples of what we had to deal with in the US (part of the reason we had to return to the UK):

1) My wife could not get insurance due to a previous condition, so uninsured, money-wise, she was a ticking time-bomb
2) My insurance, while seemingly expensive to me, gave me such bad coverage.
3) Dental work was a complete non-starter due to costs

I had a minor issue where I was getting some pains in my lower stomach, and went to the doctor for a quick checkup, and he decided to send me for a CT scan, and then later an ultrasound, and blood tests. Nearly 1000 dollars later I was told it was probably IBS, or stress, or I had pulled a muscle.

The problem resolved itself, but everything combined I spent 1000 dollars over nothing.

Another time, I went to a doctor for an infection, and she sent me for some antibiotics, but I guess she thought I needed a special kind, and the meds were not covered so cost me 80 dollars. Outrageous. The visit itself cost 30 so we are talking over 100 for a standard, minor infection. If something serious would have happened to any of us (especially my uninsured wife) it would have bankrupt me.

This is the problem when health care is just a business. You're being insured by a company who is trying to make sure you're someone who is going to make them money. It's a bit like a casino, if anyone starts winning they're going to drop you or not accept you in the first place.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

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