The Black Vault

prayer can be seen be a form of oxycotin..a way to draw it out of oneself..to create a state of bliss in yourself..useing prayer and meditation, and the like

at1with0 wrote:
Clinical depression is not caused by sin or weakness. Nor is it demonic possession.

You have absolutely no proof of that statement , and neither does the medical community. I believe it has a great deal to do with sin, even if it is the effects of others sin around you.

We are all effected by sin, whether we care to admit or not. That can be our own sin as well as the sins of others.

at1with0 wrote:
People who pray for strength to carry out God's will often enough are seeking an escape from their weakness and suffering, though not all people who pray are doing it for selfish reasons.

Just another opinion , from someone who doesn't most likely possess the insight or knowledge as to really understand why ALL people pray, and is making sweeping generalizations.

OraProNobis wrote:You have absolutely no proof of that statement , and neither does the medical community. I believe it has a great deal to do with sin, even if it is the effects of others sin around you.

The fact depression can be treated successfully with drugs would seem to suggest you're wrong, Ora. Common sense would seem to suggest you are wrong, too.

When your computer stops working, do you pray, or call a priest?

If you get cancer at some point in your life, will you ignore doctors entirely and simply ask God and/or Mary to heal you, or perhaps suspect a demon is responsible, or would you undertake medical treatment to eradicate the disease?

Wishful or magical thinking is unlikely to fix physical problems or chemical imbalances within the brain, as someone who has actually suffered from the disease is going to tell you.

OraProNobis wrote:

at1with0 wrote:
Clinical depression is not caused by sin or weakness. Nor is it demonic possession.

You have absolutely no proof of that statement , and neither does the medical community. I believe it has a great deal to do with sin, even if it is the effects of others sin around you.

We are all effected by sin, whether we care to admit or not. That can be our own sin as well as the sins of others.

Depression is caused by sin! Contact the New England Journal of Medicine!

As humphreys mentioned, why do the drugs sometimes produce effective results if sin is the cause? Depression has a constellation of causes, one of which is chemical-related and another of which is situational/environmental. Suppose my family dies in a car wreck and I get situational depression, which is quite normal. You're gonna diagnose that as caused-by-sin?? Ridiculous. Sin is most certainly not a cause for depression. Why? Well, you believe every human to have ever lived is a sinner, yes? If sin caused depression then every human to have ever lived would have a chronic case of depression throughout their whole lives. That's what cause means. It's not a cause unless it always leads to that outcome. Anything less than always reduces it to merely a factor. Some sins can be a factor in depression but that's about it.

How is it that some people demand proof for one thing yet having absolutely no proof that the Bible is the word of God? It's a double standard.

I agree that we are affected by sins, no doubt. Murder, theft, dishonor, adultery, lying, etc., certainly does affect me. But is sin the cause of depression? No, for the simple fact that not every human suffers from depression at all times.

People who pray for strength to carry out God's will often enough are seeking an escape from their weakness and suffering, though not all people who pray are doing it for selfish reasons.

Just another opinion , from someone who doesn't most likely possess the insight or knowledge as to really understand why ALL people pray, and is making sweeping generalizations.

Often enough, yes, people who pray for strength are looking for an escape from their weakness and suffering. My comment was not about all people who pray, so don't say that it was. As I said, not all people who pray are doing it for selfish reasons.

Humphreys wrote:
The fact depression can be treated successfully with drugs would seem to suggest you're wrong, Ora. Common sense would seem to suggest you are wrong, too.

I have actually suffered from depression, and played the medication game , trying different ones, to no avail. When I exercised faith, and started to pray for , things got much better.

When your computer stops working, do you pray, or call a priest?

I actually have prayed over my computer, and asked the Holy Spirit to intercede with anyone wanting to cause me harm through it, or to it. But I would take it to someone to fix if it broke down.

That is hardly the same as thinking that depression cannot be caused by the sinfulness of others (bullying for example), or by the guilt of our own sins. You take a child who is severely depressed because of their home life, and the way he/she is treated in school , give them medication and see how quickly it works.

Now take away the problems in the home life caused by serious sin , such as drug use, alcohol fueled fighting etc, and replace that with a good solid loving family who cares for each other, as well as friends in school who care and pay attention, and do not use words to hurt and intimidate, what do you think will help the child ?

Pretty much a no brainer to see that sins of mankind cause most depression, if not all.

It is the love and healing of the Holy Spirit that can HEAL those wounds, and help to alleviate the suffering , though not all of it. Once the souls understands that these sufferings can be offered up to God for reparation of sins , and for conversion of souls, they are that much easier to bare.

If you get cancer at some point in your life, will you ignore doctors entirely and simply ask God and/or Mary to heal you, or perhaps suspect a demon is responsible, or would you undertake medical treatment to eradicate the disease?

I have thought about this. Considering i think much of the modern medical world is actually run by the powers that are controlled by satan (especially at the top ), I wouldn't go to modern medicine for my cure of cancer.

I would ask God to cure i, if it is His will, and if not, would ask for the strength to cope, and offer up my suffering in reparation for my sins.

It seems wrong to me to go to humans who deny the existence of my God, to do something for me that God could do Himself if He wants.

Wishful or magical thinking is unlikely to fix physical problems or chemical imbalances within the brain, as someone who has actually suffered from the disease is going to tell you.

And neither is wishful or magical thinking that the medication will work. In fact the side effects and complications can make it much worse.

I am someone who has suffered from depression, severe depression, and never once has medication helped me. It has always come back to spiritual prayer, and hope and faith in the loving power of Jesus, that has pulled me through.

Sorry , but you are speaking to someone who has been there . I know what the reality of my life says , and I have little faith in the medical system, especially among those who have not acknowledged the power of the living God, and deny His existence.

greeney2 wrote:

humphreys wrote:

OraProNobis wrote:You have absolutely no proof of that statement , and neither does the medical community. I believe it has a great deal to do with sin, even if it is the effects of others sin around you.

The fact depression can be treated successfully with drugs would seem to suggest you're wrong, Ora. Common sense would seem to suggest you are wrong, too.

When your computer stops working, do you pray, or call a priest?

If you get cancer at some point in your life, will you ignore doctors entirely and simply ask God and/or Mary to heal you, or perhaps suspect a demon is responsible, or would you undertake medical treatment to eradicate the disease?

Wishful or magical thinking is unlikely to fix physical problems or chemical imbalances within the brain, as someone who has actually suffered from the disease is going to tell you.

whats wrong with doing both?

I'd not recommend going to an exorcist if you get cancer as the stress is not likely to help, but prayer certainly won't hurt, so I don't see anything wrong with it.

It seems that medicine without prayer is effective, and medicine with prayer is equally effective, but prayer without medicine is not likely to get good results, so as long as you take the medicine itself you can decide to pray or not pray and studies will show it makes no difference which.

Best case scenario you'll get a minor boost from the placebo effect it can produce.

OraProNobis wrote:I have actually suffered from depression, and played the medication game , trying different ones, to no avail. When I exercised faith, and started to pray for , things got much better.

As at1 said there are different types. If you have a good reason for being depressed, like emotional trauma or family loss, then self-medication may well be the way to go. That self-medication can be anything from prayer, to meditation, to long walks along the beach, or even a few nights out with friends having a great time - whatever works for you.

That's not the type of depression we're necessarily discussing here though.

OraProNobis wrote:

When your computer stops working, do you pray, or call a priest?

I actually have prayed over my computer, and asked the Holy Spirit to intercede with anyone wanting to cause me harm through it, or to it.

LOL. How'd that work out for you?

OraProNobis wrote:That is hardly the same as thinking that depression cannot be caused by the sinfulness of others (bullying for example), or by the guilt of our own sins. You take a child who is severely depressed because of their home life, and the way he/she is treated in school , give them medication and see how quickly it works.

Does that fit the definition of clinical depression? I don't think that'd be the type of depression that fits the chemical imbalance description.

OraProNobis wrote:Pretty much a no brainer to see that sins of mankind cause most depression, if not all.

That's a giant and illogical leap to make from one type (based on obvious circumstance) to all.

A recent case is of a footballer here called Gary Speed. Might be a good example. He is suspected to suffer from depression. He actually had a great life, loving home, exciting career, yet he hung himself. Another footballer came out to write about depression and says he has no reason to be sad, and yet his depression is all consuming, he literally cannot pull himself out of bed in the morning.

These are likely examples of depression that need to be medicated and not a result of sin or demonic possession. They are chemical imbalances and physical brain disorders.

OraProNobis wrote:I have thought about this. Considering i think much of the modern medical world is actually run by the powers that are controlled by satan (especially at the top ), I wouldn't go to modern medicine for my cure of cancer.
I would ask God to cure i, if it is His will, and if not, would ask for the strength to cope, and offer up my suffering in reparation for my sins.

Then, to be blunt, you will die if you reach that scenario.

You post a few cases of claimed "miracles" where people have healed from cancer without treatment. They claim it was through prayer and you triumphantly claim "Miracle!", and yet, cases of cancer being cured by standard medicine are rife. Some cancers like testicular cancer have a 98% cure rate! How can those isolated cases of miracles, even if legitimate, come close to such a cure rate?

If you had that type of cancer (unlikely as you're female, of course, but hypothetically!), you'd be signing yourself a death warrant by not getting treated!

Insanity.

OraProNobis wrote:

Humphreys wrote:
The fact depression can be treated successfully with drugs would seem to suggest you're wrong, Ora. Common sense would seem to suggest you are wrong, too.

I have actually suffered from depression, and played the medication game , trying different ones, to no avail. When I exercised faith, and started to pray for , things got much better.

Did you cease to be a sinner?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your depression was situational. Situational depression is often not treatable through medication because the cause isn't a chemical imbalance; the cause is the situation. Did you lose someone close to you or found yourself in a bad situation?

Pretty much a no brainer to see that sins of mankind cause most depression, if not all.

All people are sinners but not all people are depressed (far from it). Therefore, sin does not cause depression.

It seems wrong to me to go to humans who deny the existence of my God, to do something for me that God could do Himself if He wants.

Yeah, but you don't know what God wants.

Sorry , but you are speaking to someone who has been there . I know what the reality of my life says , and I have little faith in the medical system, especially among those who have not acknowledged the power of the living God, and deny His existence.

What about the millions of people for whom drugs do work?

Humphreys wrote:
Does that fit the definition of clinical depression? I don't think that'd be the type of depression that fits the chemical imbalance description.

Actually that is exactly what they told me I had, and it was depression from choices I had made , as well as choices others had made. Medication I have been prescribed often, and taken for almost a year with nothing helping.

I know for a fact that faith, hope and prayer can do wonders for your emotional and mental state. Much much more than medication can, even for so called "clinical depression".

Humphreys wrote:
A recent case is of a footballer here called Gary Speed. Might be a good example. He is suspected to suffer from depression. He actually had a great life, loving home, exciting career, yet he hung himself. Another footballer came out to write about depression and says he has no reason to be sad, and yet his depression is all consuming, he literally cannot pull himself out of bed in the morning.

Don't buy it Humphreys. There was something else going on that we are not privy to . As well there could be some serious brain injury for athletes as well that would have considerable factor.

I refuse to "buy into" the notion that a huge amount of people are born with chemical imbalances . The pharmaceutical companies , and doctors are loving that. meanwhile we have hurting teenagers put on antidepressants that do not help with the real cause, and only aggravate the problem until they snap and kill themselves or others.

Humphreys wrote:
Then, to be blunt, you will die if you reach that scenario.

You post a few cases of claimed "miracles" where people have healed from cancer without treatment. They claim it was through prayer and you triumphantly claim "Miracle!", and yet, cases of cancer being cured by standard medicine are rife. Some cancers like testicular cancer have a 98% cure rate! How can those isolated cases of miracles, even if legitimate, come close to such a cure rate?

If you had that type of cancer (unlikely as you're female, of course, but hypothetically!), you'd be signing yourself a death warrant by not getting treated!

Insanity.

Ok , I agree i may have been a little too hasty in making that comment , but in my heart of hearts it is how I feel.

I look at the majority of doctors who go into medicine simply for prestige, family tradition, or MONEY , and do not see a group of people who genuinely care for the well being of others. Throw into that that a number of them have no belief in God, hold no real sacredness to many living things ( are willing to use many living things for experimental use, including aborted fetuses which they do not tell us about)

Yes , I know there are GOOD doctors out there, but many are just arrogant ,selfish ,self postulating know it alls, who care more about the boys at their local mason lodge than they do about there patients.

Its very difficult for me to go to these types for help, when they spit on my faith of Jesus behind my back. I would rather die in my faith , and leave this cruel world behind, thank you very much.