The Black Vault

People with a lot of tunnel vision usually do miss the point At1.

I guess to you OT everyone but you is a Heathen or Pagan.

En-Lugal wrote:I'll get the ball rolling then.

Acts 17:28
28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[ b ] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[c]
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one--
The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou are not dead. Thou livest and abidest forever,
For in thee we live and move and have our being.
Epimenides - "Cretica"

Poem to Zeus and quoted by Paul, who was a Jewish and Greek scholar, in the Bible. So I take it that Paul is telling us Zeus is the one true God and we are his offspring?

http://www.johnlmoore.com/titustwo.htm

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte ... rticle=809

Christians and Jews were not the first to suggest a living God. The fact that the Greek pantheon and culture played such an important part in the lives and culture of the Jews and early Christians, who drew heavily on both cultures to form Christianity is non-debatable.

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Is this confirmation that Zeus is the one true God of the Bible? I don't recall the Hebrew God ever accepting worship of any idol.

As is always the case, we should establish context for what you quoted. In verses 22 thru 27, Paul sets the whole argument up. His mission was to evangelize even the Pagans, and, as the chapter goes on to reveal, his argument won many of them over.

It is clear that you completely missed the point Paul was making. He was speaking to a council of elders and, noting their Pagan idols, delivered a speech in an effort to evanglize and show them that their worship of some "unknown God" was misguided. He proceeded to suggest that though they were praying to an unknown, false God, seemingly trying to "feel" their way toward this god... the one true God is actually within our reach and "not far from each of us." He used their own inscriptions/verses against them as an example. He in no way whatsoever validated those verses and claimed them as true.

In my opinion, the reason Christians get so offended at this notion is because of their fierce competition with Paganism for two millennium now.

In all seriousness: The reason any Christian would be and should be highly offended at any suggestion that we effectively practice Paganism is because throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament, Paganism is described as possibly THE most offensive thing any of us could ever practice. The God of the bible loathes Paganism, and it should be obvious to anyone who even so much as skims through the bible in cursory fashion. Page after page, verse after verse, chapter and book after chapter and book, worshiping idols and Pagan gods is utterly and completely condemned by the God of the bible. I mean, my goodness, He even went so far as to dedicate 2 of the 10 Commandments toward forbidding Pagan practices.

And I don't know how in the world you've concluded that Christians have somehow manufactured our disdain for Paganism (the theme of your argument is we practice Paganism, yet we fight against it and compete against it) -- when Paganism was clearly and completely forbidden by God, thousands of years before the first Christian ever walked the planet. All Christians are doing is simply following through with what their God commanded well before Christ was born.

And by the way, no Christian today believes we are in any kind of "competition" with Paganism, per sé. And that's because we don't give Paganism a shred of credibility. We are no more competing against Paganism as we are competing against so-called Pastafarianism.

I meean, it isn't enough to restructure all of your holy days to coincide and compete

The coinciding and "competing" was structured a long time ago when Christianity was young and frail, and Paganism was rampant in culture. I already went to great lengths to explain WHY Christian celebrations were moved to coincide with Pagan celebrations. It was done out of concern for the Christians that the Pagans were trying to woo back over to their "team" so to speak. It was an act of compassion and concern, not a silly effort to one-up the "competition." Incidentally, there was a real, true competition going on, but it wasn't a game. The competition was for the future of people's souls in the afterlife.

but you also had to demonize their religion.

Demonize is an excellent word and very befitting, considering that Paganism involved many entities that could be described as demons. However, it wasn't the Christians that "demonized" Paganism. It was already denounced and demonized, like I said, well before any Christians existed.

Satan is awfully similar to Samael

Is this one of your supporting arguments? I looked around a little, I see that Samael is a character in ancient Jewish lore. There are some similarities to Satan, but I don't see anything worth taking too seriously.

Citation from a Jewish source on the fact that Sumerian Proverbs are in the Bible.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 16139.html

A lot of material there. I see where he said that several teachings in Proverbs were very similar to several teachings on ancient Sumerian tablets. I have 2 thoughts on this. First and foremost, this isn't a critical issue regardless of the actual facts, because your claim deals with Christian beliefs... people that follow Christ and His teachings. Christians live under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. However, still, this is an interesting topic. My 2nd thought is is, no one that I'm aware of, ever claimed that Solomon (or anyone else for that matter) took dictation directly from God, when he/they recorded Scripture. So it goes to follow that Solomon could -- in his superior wisdom -- have weighed any prevailing tenet or proverb in his own mind and determined whether it was sound, Godly teaching, and then supported it by repeating it. In other words, it's not completely necessary or even suggested by anyone, that all of Proverbs is exclusive, unique, word-for-word dictation from the lips of God Himself, so Solomon--in his ultimate, God-given, superior wisdom--repeating and validating something he heard from someone else, is perfectly ok.


Ok, so the ball is rolling now. But insofar as your claim is concerned... the ball is rolling up a very steep hill, and quickly losing momentum. What else do you have on this, please sir and thank you!

I saw by the way that Samael is also the name of a heavy metal band from Switzerland. Might I venture a guess that you listen to their music and did a little web-surfing to find out what their band name was all about?

Speaking of Solomon, I have come full circle regarding the Goetia. I used to believe King Solomon wrote it. Boy was I naive! Probably still am in some respects. When I was a kid, I tried summoning Dantalion so as to learn about Art and Science. He never appeared to my eyes though I definitely felt a presence. Then some questions started coming that I couldn't answer like if a human person is not bound by a triangle inscribed in a circle, then why would any "demon." Perhaps lightly practicing demonology is something that contributed to my subsequent touch of madness, as it were. Imagine a 17 year old playing with assault rifles. I can see why God forbade pagan practices, except the difference between myself and a "rank and file" Christian is that I have a glimpse into what those assault rifles can do.

Oh and frosty, putting an accent on the E in per se? Classic....

at1with0 wrote:What I meant is that it is missing the point of Christianity not missing the point of the thread.

I get Christianity, I understand it just fine and I know where it came from. Frosty can't accept it and therefore must defend against this notion at any cost. Even going so far as to be a knowingly deceitful troll. He's one of those false prophets Jesus warned about. He'll gladly spread things he thinks are in the Bible and then continue even when called on it because of pride. Like his comment about the saints, whom he obviously knows zilch about but proudly stated that they were "exactly what the Bible purported them to be". I called him on it and he's got nada, hence the dodge and the reason for his crass, arrogant and disrespectful attitude.

frrostedman wrote:I saw by the way that Samael is also the name of a heavy metal band from Switzerland. Might I venture a guess that you listen to their music and did a little web-surfing to find out what their band name was all about?

!	blackvault wrote:
	Warning: Excessive use of name calling and language. This needs to stop.

Samael comes up quite a bit in Pagan circles because for the life of us, he's the only deity we can possibly fathom that Christian's would compare even remotely to Satan worship. You as a Christian obviously wouldn't know that nor would you care. I will say this, I don't care if God says I'm a Satan worshiper. The Pagan religions existed long before Judaism, Christianity or Satan. In fact, the concept of Hell is Pagan as well. It's called Ragnarok.

At any rate, I'd hoped you and I could have a pleasant discussion and maybe learn a few things we didn't know. I see that isn't possible with you because of your attitude from the very beginning.

!	blackvault wrote:
	Edited again

To that end, I've decided that you aren't worth the effort and will instead add you to my ignore list, like I would any troll.

For some reason, non-Christian ideas influencing Christian ideas is not striking me as being more (or less) important than, say, non-English elements of language influencing English elements of language. In other words, so what if Christianity has had non-Christian influences?

at1with0 wrote:Speaking of Solomon, I have come full circle regarding the Goetia. I used to believe King Solomon wrote it. Boy was I naive! Probably still am in some respects. When I was a kid, I tried summoning Dantalion so as to learn about Art and Science. He never appeared to my eyes though I definitely felt a presence. Then some questions started coming that I couldn't answer like if a human person is not bound by a triangle inscribed in a circle, then why would any "demon." Perhaps lightly practicing demonology is something that contributed to my subsequent touch of madness, as it were. Imagine a 17 year old playing with assault rifles. I can see why God forbade pagan practices, except the difference between myself and a "rank and file" Christian is that I have a glimpse into what those assault rifles can do.

Oh and frosty, putting an accent on the E in per se? Classic....

Though I said before to El Lugal, that Christians don't give Paganism a shred of credibility -- I should also add a caveat to that. Pagan gods with a small g -- many of them I do believe are real and interact with human beings (like what you experienced). Paganism and other occult practices absolutely do deliver occasional results but, not favorable ones. What I mean when I say we Christians don't give Paganism any credibility is, we don't believe there is a single shred of benefit from it and it should be avoided at all costs. The bible tells us that occult practices are real, and they do produce results. Just for one example, King Saul in the Old Testament had a summoner raise up the spirit of Solomon to ask advice. Wasn't a smart move, and soon after he was slain. God does *not* appreciate such things.




** as for El Lugal's last comment -- I am caught completely by surprise. I came here tonight, actually looking forward to a substantive response and a fun debate! What just happened???? Was I out of line in my response?? I sure wasn't trying to be. **

at1with0 wrote::Doh:


For some reason, non-Christian ideas influencing Christian ideas is not striking me as being more (or less) important than, say, non-English elements of language influencing English elements of language. In other words, so what if Christianity has had non-Christian influences?

A passive statement like that I can accept. What I couldn't accept before was El Lugal's matter-of-fact claim that Christian beliefs are so obviously ROOTED in Paganism. That's a far cry from what you said.

Paganism was around way before Christianity and was completely prevalent when Christ walked the Earth. So it stands to reason that Paganism would have some kind of "influence" on Christian thinking -- and early Christian Leaders spent a good bit of the New Testament addressing and rebuking those Paganistic influences and habits. The influence I can accept is, that the new Christian Church in that time, would -- by habit alone if nothing else -- start reverting back to Pagan practices. And when they did, the Church elders had to nip that activity in the bud, which they did.

But to suggest that Christianity was effectively borne from Paganism? Hogwash.

at1with0 wrote:Oh and frosty, putting an accent on the E in per se? Classic....

I thought it was proper. Thanks for the correction!

Well, I guess it IS proper, per se, if you want to spell it phonetically.

frrostedman wrote:

at1with0 wrote:Oh and frosty, putting an accent on the E in per se? Classic....

I thought it was proper. Thanks for the correction!

Well, I guess it IS proper, per se, if you want to spell it phonetically.

I don't know what is proper but I thought the extra effort was cool...

greeney2 wrote:People with a lot of tunnel vision usually do miss the point At1.

I guess to you OT everyone but you is a Heathen or Pagan.

Greeny2,

I do not suggest this at all. For I know many who are Christians...and not just myself. I think you can do better than this..much better.


Frostedman,

But to suggest that Christianity was effectively borne from Paganism? Hogwash.

I do not suggest that Christianity was born from Paganism. But I do understand that efforts were made from the beginning to infiltrate the system of God and replace or overlay it with another belief system...privily ..with subtlety...unawares. And we see this history and attempt takeing place .. both among the Hebrews and today among the Christians..privily ...without many being aware of it happening. And this from the Garden of Eden unto today.

This is the essence of the series called "The Ever War" in explain this shift and substitution to those unaware or untutored in it.

The difference in paganism and Christianity is the fruit it produces. Yesterday as well as today. And this too is covered in " The Ever War."


http://www.midnight-emissary.com/Conrad_Jarrell.html


Thanks,
Orangetom