The Black Vault

DIss0n80r wrote:And I still haven't seen any posts disputing the facts and evidence in the video.

Guess we should just throw reason out the window when it leads us to anything that contradicts belief, though, right?

After all, what good is reality?? Will genuinely understanding what actually is, instead of blindly following religious dogma, make us better sheep?

Videos are great but, put a few points together in a bullet list and, if necessary, augment them with your own personal wisdom. I almost always try to avoid videos because they are typically 20 minutes to an hour long, and it's just asking too much of someone to dedicate that much time on 1 post in a message forum. I do occasionally post as short a video as possible, if I've decided the speaker articulates the point infinitely better than I am capable of.

Sorry, I'm joining in after a long absence due to work issues but life should restore to normal very soon and then I should be able to visit on almost a daily basis.

Thanks in advance.

Sorry, but I've put too much time into you twits as it is. If you don't take these issues seriously enough to find an hour to watch a lecture and educate yourself, then don't expect me to spoonfeed you.

DIss0n80r wrote:Sorry, but I've put too much time into you twits as it is. If you don't take these issues seriously enough to find an hour to watch a lecture and educate yourself, then don't expect me to spoonfeed you.

Just as I suspected. Piss off.

Hey, it's not like you guys would accept any explanation other than magic, anyways, so enjoy your willful ignorance. I'm going to focus on reasonable people, not Salt guy & friends.

Besides, I'm sure you stooges have plenty to talk about already, like how best to inch society toward witch burnings and public stonings, or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

DIss0n80r,

It doesn't matter if those are "outdated" by your rationale. The fact that they were written at all exposes who their author was: ignorant, primitive man.

Wow!! I am not strictly speaking of my rationale..but also what the history states...even the history of Modern man is nothing to boast about. For some reason you have great difficulty grasping this history and fact.
What does Democide state about modern man??? Think it through. What does it state about an organization like the UN where logic and reason abound??

You talk on about "grace" but there is no grace in believing in a God that would murder for petty reasons.

I think you mean modern man...in the last hundred years of recorded history.
Also as I stated...read what survives of the history of the nations surrounding Ancient Israel and see how they did??

For some reason many have difficulty grasping this while using the name game as well as the blame game today.

You broadly dismiss science, implying it must make us cold and cruel, and implying that religion is the warm and fuzzy opposite that will save us.

I think you have a very active imagination here...and also to support you make alot of assumptions for your religion...science. I am not against science..per se...I just think it is a lousy basis for a belief system or replacement belief system.

Remember something important and telling here DIss0n80r, The Soviets/Communists as well as many Islamic nations are big on science. Many totalitarian nations are big on science as well. Under these conditions ..I don't believe science will save us as well. I cannot imagine what you are thinking ..or perhaps not thinking here.

No, the hope for man is in his willingness to understand and solve his own problems. No gods will do it for us. No words of men should be above scrutiny. We'll either help ourselves to survive and thrive or not be helped at all.

Thanks for supporting me with this statement DIss0n80r. For the Bible position is that by the sweat of his brow will man eat bread. Thank you.

And I still haven't seen any posts disputing the facts and evidence in the video.

Guess we should just throw reason out the window when it leads us to anything that contradicts belief, though, right?

After all, what good is reality?? Will genuinely understanding what actually is, instead of blindly following religious dogma, make us better sheep?

You know DIss0n80r, This is another excellent point about the videos. The one in cartoon format...it brings out a very interesting point for which I have often noticed.

About Emotions rather than logic and reason.

The Bible says something very similar..let us reason together. It, like the video, does not say ..let us emote together...but reason.

Wow DIss0n80r, your using a Bible position in your posts.

Do you know people today..around you who when you ask them a principled question or something about history ..they must refer to a movie or television program they have watched. I had a fellow do this just tonight in a class I was taking.
He did not seem to even notice what he was doing or making plain...that he had few actual life experience or thoughts of his own. It made me wonder about the grasp on reality of some people.

Do you know people who will vote with their emotions...because someone or something put them on a emotional puppet string right to the voting booth?? I know many of them. They too are like sheep. I agree with you on this one.

I found that video in cartoon format ...to be interesting about emotions verses logic and reason.

Science, not faith, has produced the medical knowledge that has increased the longevity and quality of human life. The gods, in all their wisdom and glory, didn't see fit to arm our species with sufficient useful knowledge of diseases and how to prevent and cure them, for example. We've had to figure out as much as we have on our own, at the cost of horrendous unnecessary suffering for so very long...

You are assuming once again that the Bible is or should be a scientific treatise or written in scientific language. However ...the Bible does show a people how to prepare their meals..how to wash...and take care of themselves and as a result the Children of Israel were not subject to many of the afflictions as were the people of other nations. This in a time when refrigeration was not available...nor cooking methods as today.
Science has indeed created many of our better conditions..but has it made us better people?? I don't think so.
And much of this horrendous suffering is still going on today in times of science...logic and reason. I don't know what you are thinking here.

So keep in mind that attempting to understand how things actually work - not how we wish they were or hope they are, not how we believe or want to, and not ignoring whatever facts we don't like - very much matters, and the consequences of undermining reason and science aren't just trivially foolish but potentially deadly.

You need to think this through in lieu of what is currently happening in many nations to their people in times of science....the consequence. Remember..science also includes economics today as well. Men of letters in the economic fields.

Oh, and Tom, about your Rummel quotes. I know it probably seems to you I've been ignoring them, and that's because I have. You know why? Leaving aside the controversy about Rummel inflating figures, let's just simply assume for the sake of argument those numbers are correct.

In fact, let's double them. Triple them, even. Heck, let's quadruple the number of deaths due to governments and their policies.

Now explain to me how one death or one trillion deaths due to governments has any bearing on Intelligent Design's validity and please teach the rest of us the reasoning that led you from those figures to your beliefs. Ie. Please explain how any number of deaths caused by governments proves the existence of God and not just that but specifically your God and the claims of your religion.

Because it seems like a red herring and an example of falsely dichotomous thinking ie. Government = man = evil, Bible = God = good, and furthermore may be meant to imply theocracy is justified.

If the numbers are correct, DIss0n80r, It shows clearly that the religion man is trying to promote is full of holes in and of itself. The religion that says Man is Sovereign and God is subject. This is called by some people...demigods here on earth.

It shows that man is not all he is cracked up to be...and that there are certain arenas or thought that some do not want known among men.

Also since you seem to be having problems stepping outside of your one way thinking ..with it's attendant insecurities...I am not particularly into intelligent design..this is an assumption of yours.

I am into a Sovereign God..God is Sovereign ..not god is good. This is why you don't seem to catch on ..but make the assumptions you do and then run with them. To those who know of what I speak..it shows great insecurity masked by aggression. No problem ..I merely make note of it.

I also do not believe in the greatness of men...we are just men..with all the frailties of men. Science is never going to change this.

Once again..science has made us more comfortable...our labors less and easier...but it has not made us better people...no matter how long we live. Of this I am certain.

Also ..I don't know where you make the assumption that I think theocracy is justified. Once again ..your fears and insecurities. What makes you think that I believe a government of all preachers is any more honest and decent than ordinary men??

For I know that feudalism itself...is the most common form of government found in recorded history. A few men supported by the priesthood...and the kings or emperors getting their authority from the gods. Their power was therefore absolute...from god. Through most of recorded history ..these nations...the religion did not change the plight of the ordinary peon one iota. A few people..the priesthoods and Royalty had a little and the rest had almost nothing.
This is known history.

What is needed is a people who know this history ..not only of the nations of this earth..but also of the nations which departed from this system of feudalism and how it was a religion which made this change. The ability of a people to break the bonds or yoke of this feudal system of bondage..or of Ishmael.

This knowledge of history and religion is not to reside in government..but in the people themselves. For it is a knowledge that history shows...government will only abuse it for more power and control...while keeping the people ignorant of it.



As to this DIss0n80r,

Sorry, but I've put too much time into you twits as it is. If you don't take these issues seriously enough to find an hour to watch a lecture and educate yourself, then don't expect me to spoonfeed you.

It is not worthy of a person of intellect, wisdom, logic and reason.

You show yourself to be impatient, as well as lacking leadership or even teaching skills. Patience is one of the virtues of science, knowledge , and wisdom. None of which you show on any of your posts. You can do much better in representing the religion you so worship.

You come across as if you think you are sitting on the only one in town. No problem by me if you choose to take this path...but it shows poor technique and rationale to me. I merely make note of it to the other readers out here.

By the way, DIss0n80r, this also shows emotions..not reason, logic, nor patience. Once again..you can do better than that. Go back and watch your cartoon..think..don't emote. Otherwise people out here will see how easily you can be put on the emotional strings.

and here is proof...

Hey, it's not like you guys would accept any explanation other than magic, anyways, so enjoy your willful ignorance. I'm going to focus on reasonable people, not Salt guy & friends.

Besides, I'm sure you stooges have plenty to talk about already, like how best to inch society toward witch burnings and public stonings, or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

This is not scientific..nor of logic and reason...but self promotion. In short..it is politics. And you can do better than this with all your "logic and reason."

This is labeling and name calling..much like today's crop of politicians and political parties. Or put another way in the self promotion...it is..


Jerry!!! Jerry!!! Jerry!!!


Thanks for demonstrating this to us DIss0n80r.

Also ..my thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

Still not seeing any creationism arguments that can dispute the evidence from the fossil record and genome sequencing.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is what you WANT to believe.

I made it clear that I'm done wasting time here. You have to WANT to inform yourselves, not guard your beliefs.

The pertinent information is still there, any time you want it. But you don't. I'm not going to waste time with people who are plainly lazy and determined to ignore facts and evidence. You kids play your games by yourselves now.

By the way, you guys are engaging in a clear straw man tactic. I never said anything against emotions per se. An "appeal to emotion" means relying on emotion as the basis for an argument's strength. Ie. "Doom & gloom, ergo GOD" as Greene so aptly displayed. Or "Timmy will cry if you tell him there's no Santa Claus" reasoning.

It simply does not matter how information makes you feeeeel, kids. Your feelings have no bearing on objective reality.

So when I express contempt for you three, try not to get too confused as to why. There was, is, and will continue to be facts and evidence negating bible magic after I've walked away in disgust.

DIss0n80r wrote:Still not seeing any creationism arguments that can dispute the evidence from the fossil record and genome sequencing.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is what you WANT to believe.

I made it clear that I'm done wasting time here. You have to WANT to inform yourselves, not guard your beliefs.

The pertinent information is still there, any time you want it. But you don't. I'm not going to waste time with people who are plainly lazy and determined to ignore facts and evidence. You kids play your games by yourselves now.

Sorry DIss0n80r,

I also know of a number of anomalies in the fossil record..of which science does not want to speak.

Also...I don't tell or try to intimidate/excoriate when people don't want to believe what I believe. I leave them right where they are at. This to the Believer is called Separating..come out from amongst them and be ye separate sayeth the Lord.

Your position is that if people don't want to believe what you believe there is something massively wrong with them.

This is politics DIss0n80r..it is not science. And this is precisely the purpose of this debate you are trying to carry on here.

It is not liberty...it is not freedom..and it is not intellectual...nor is it reason or logic...it is Politics.

In short..DIss0n80r...one has to go to public schools and get educated to get this naturally dumb.

No laws have been broken here...no immorality has been carried out by the people on this board...yet you would treat them as if they were all of these things and lesser than you and your beliefs. This is class warfare at its finest. It is division. It is also not tolerance. But it is Politic today.

AKA....Jerry!!!! Jerry!!! Jerry!!!

Tabloid politics. It is not science.

Need proof...who finances public education in this country...the body politic....Ishmael. And both public education and Politics is becoming rapidly more hostile to religions that do not follow their paradigm.

The only reason such beliefs exist in other Religions..like Science is to get people to give up their Beliefs and leave man without any foundation or Limits on his behavior. To tolerate any and everything no matter how nonsensical. I know this because many of the experiments in science and research can never be made public...they don't dare.
They would rather change the nature of men into more base animals. And base animals operate more on instincts/emotions than thinking.

This is for the purposes of control...not for liberty and freedom. Anyone capable of thinking outside of pubic education today can figure this out for themeslves. Intellectualism would have us believe that religion does the same thing in Bondage that is being done by Science in bed with politics today. They do not want us to see the religious pattern being promoted by science itself ..in bed with the body politic. That the onus is on and in particular by Christianity.

I dont buy it. Simply by what I know of history. Even if I was not a Believer..I would know this about men's history and track record and be therefore dubious about Science as a religion or religious belief.


There is no other factor outside of a peoples religion which will affect their economics and standard of living outside of their religion. The religion of a people is the main cause of their economic prosperity...or diminished prosperity. This should be obvious by what is happening both in Europe and here in America. Europe first...then shortly here.

It is obvious that Science is not going to save Europe...nor us here in America economically. And Economics is one of the intellectual disciplines ..is it not??

In your passion you are playing without all the cards in the deck. No problem by me DIss0n80r. I am just not interested in you trying to pass this version of intellect and wisdom off on me. I will not speak for the others out here..they are free to decide for themselves.

What I disapprove of in an "Intellectual" is your kind of self promotion and intolerance...behind the mask of Knowledge and wisdom. Your kind of baseness in incivility. No problem with me if you want to carry on this way and call it Intellectual. I call it baseness and have no interest in going there or being dragged to that kind of thing.

This means to me that you are the very one in those videos who is emotive...full of emotions..not thinking.

But if you prefer that kind of behavior...bon appetit.

I was not aware that you have been warned on the nature of your posts. That is between you and the Mods. I do not get shaken up that easily ..but at the same time I am aware for the need for some decorum or civility...such that we do not so become base.

Once again thanks to all for their posts.

Orangetom

Very intriguing, Tom! Tell us all about your understanding of the fossil record, as well the anomalies you mentioned. Also, you haven't addressed the genome issue or the bacterial flagellum issue, for starters. I look forward to your input.