The Black Vault

qmark wrote:I am sticking to the subject. The subject is hell being used as a "tool". A tool for what, to scare people into going to church? Millions do not go to church and have absolute no desire to do so. Not very effective there.

No. It's not very effective when used by itself is what I'm getting at. When coupled with religion, "Hell" can be in the back of the mind, with Jesus in the front.

qmark wrote:Is it a tool to keep people in church? The decline in church membership has been steadily dropping for years. Not very effective there, either.

Yes it's true more people are dropping out, which is a good thing no doubt -- attribute that to the strong willed people reading up on science/evolution/cosmology. But it's apparently still effective for many of those that stay -- the weak ones that think (or are told) science is the "devil's" work...or Sunday School teachers saying stupid things like "Satan planted the dinosaur bones."

qmark wrote:Is it a tool to control people? As I already stated, statistically, the sins that beset the world are almost identical within the church. As a tool, it is failing miserably. If it were truly an effective tool, people WOULD be afraid to do ANYTHING that might send them to hell.

It's certainly not effective in keeping people from "sinning," I'll give you that. But in their minds they think they can get away with it, because as long as they ask for forgiveness they can still be "saved". That's what makes Christianity so foul, and why priests molest little boys.

qmark wrote:We are all deserving of hell.

Speak for yourself.

qmark wrote:Fortunately, Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins so we don't have to. What a marvelous and wonderful loving God we have in Christ Jesus!

qmark wrote:When a person becomes a Christian, their focus is on Jesus and not on hell.

Of course the focus is on Jesus. If it wasn't then you're threatened with "Hell". The whole concept makes me think about a serial killer putting a knife to someone's throat, telling the person to "love me or I'll slit your throat."

qmark wrote:Thank you EH for proving my point. If it had been an effective tool you would still be on the straight and narrow.

It would have been an effective tool had I grew up in a religious household.

qmark wrote:Again, indoctrination that apparently isn't working. Perhaps they are using lousy tools, like hell. Maybe they should try sowing seeds instead.

Yes, indoctrination is still working to a large degree. Many children that grew up in church and are now adults are still going to church. Did these people ever have a choice? No. They were brainwashed after being indoctrinated and are incapable of thinking outside the Bible.

It's a form of child abuse to indoctrinate children.

frrostedman wrote:

orangetom1999 wrote:

What's really messed up is that they want it to be true. The thought of them being able to spend forever in Fantasyland outweighs the thought of the rest of us being tortured forever, which is completely selfish. No rational/compassionate human being would want this to be true.

LOL LOL LOL...Textbook.

Textbook indeed. And conjecture. And strawman.

Talk about "fantasy land." The author of that quote is LIVING in fantasy land.

Heh....yeah I had a feeling that might get someone's panties all bunched up. I don't care what you want to call it. There's some truth in it. You're just in denial.

I would have bet the Farm EH had never been to church, but now that I know he went 6 times with his Grandma, no wonder he turned out like he did. Granny poked his eye out with a stick during sunday school for saying "Hell" out loud, thats why he has a patch over it. Look at his avatar! Those darn sunday schools, they are all alike.

greeney2 wrote:I would have bet the Farm EH had never been to church, but now that I know he went 6 times with his Grandma

I said I went 4 or 5 times. Try and keep up, pawpaw. Fix those walker wheels...ya got too much Poligrip stuck on them.

event_horizon wrote:Yes it's true more people are dropping out, which is a good thing no doubt -- attribute that to the strong willed people reading up on science/evolution/cosmology. But it's apparently still effective for many of those that stay -- the weak ones that think (or are told) science is the "devil's" work...or Sunday School teachers saying stupid things like "Satan planted the dinosaur bones."

Never have I heard that "science is the devils work" or "satan planted the dinosaur bones" from anyone within the church.

event_horizon wrote:It's certainly not effective in keeping people from "sinning," I'll give you that. But in their minds they think they can get away with it, because as long as they ask for forgiveness they can still be "saved". That's what makes Christianity so foul, and why priests molest little boys.

A statement like that only shows your ignorance. The Bible specifically speaks against that.

event_horizon wrote:

qmark wrote:We are all deserving of hell.

Speak for yourself.

Yes, I can clearly see by your interaction with others here on the BV that you are a stand-up guy.

By the way, with all of his brilliance, Hitchens was far from an expert in spiritual matters.

event_horizon wrote:It would have been an effective tool had I grew up in a religious household.

No it wouldn't have. There are far too many that have walked away even though they grew up in a religious household. You just don't want to accept that.

event_horizon wrote:Yes, indoctrination is still working to a large degree. Many children that grew up in church and are now adults are still going to church. Did these people ever have a choice? No. They were brainwashed after being indoctrinated and are incapable of thinking outside the Bible.

I have already delt with this with my previous posts. At this point we are just going around and around. I rest my case. You have stated your case as well. Our posts are here for anyone to read. They can decide whether they agree or disagree.

Indoctrination does not work on anyone capable of thinking for themselves. That's just a fact. And, people that fit into the "can't think for themselves" category are just as susceptible to any other "indoctrination" as they would be the Christian variety so really, the claim is baseless.

As an aside, you know, the group that followed Manson around and murdered all those people in California... they fit into the category. And given either option, call me a overzealous, but, I'm thinking I would rather they have fallen "victim" to Christian indoctrination than Manson indoctrination. But that's just me.

I mean, is it really that horrible for a susceptible person, incapable of forming their own beliefs, to turn out to believe and follow the teachings of Jesus, given all the other alternatives? Sure, maybe Atheism or Agnosticism is "superior" in your eyes. But if so. Why? Is Christian doctrine such a horrible thing? Is it completely wrong and immoral? Why?

I'd like to weigh in on that one, Frrosted.

Obviously, if Christianity is true, it's not a problem at all, as these people will be indoctrinated into a belief system that's most likely to get them into heaven.

Of course, from the unbelievers point of view, Christianity is not true, and therefore someone being indoctrinated will have a lot of draw backs for them and society in general.

Religion can cause conflict. Whether it's families clashing over beliefs, or Biblical interpretations, or a son having to tell his highly religious Dad that he is gay. It doesn't just cause conflict with others, it causes internal conflict, too, in guilt over things like sex, strange beliefs towards things like Stem Cell research, global warming denial, evolution denial, suppression of scientific and other progress based on Bible texts, and the list goes on.

Then you get specific problems caused by certain branches of Christianity, that might involve not using birth control, or unnecessarily circumcising their child.

Depending on how literal the person takes the Bible, depends on just how destructive it can be.

I don't agree that the only people who can be indoctrinated are those "unable to think for themselves" either. Education is the key, and teaching proper critical thinking skills. With the right education, someone "unable to think for themselves" can actually become amazingly good at it.

Strangely enough, those indoctrinated at a very young age, like many Muslims and other extremists, are far more likely to be "unable to think for themselves" once they get older. If that isn't reason enough to conclude that indoctrination itself is bad, then I don't know what is.

humphreys wrote:I'd like to weigh in on that one, Frrosted.

Obviously, if Christianity is true, it's not a problem at all, as these people will be indoctrinated into a belief system that's most likely to get them into heaven.

Of course, from the unbelievers point of view, Christianity is not true, and therefore someone being indoctrinated will have a lot of draw backs for them and society in general.

Religion can cause conflict. Whether it's families clashing over beliefs, or Biblical interpretations, or a son having to tell his highly religious Dad that he is gay. It doesn't just cause conflict with others, it causes internal conflict, too, in guilt over things like sex, strange beliefs towards things like Stem Cell research, global warming denial, evolution denial, suppression of scientific and other progress based on Bible texts, and the list goes on.

Then you get specific problems caused by certain branches of Christianity, that might involve not using birth control, or unnecessarily circumcising their child.

Depending on how literal the person takes the Bible, depends on just how destructive it can be.

I don't agree that the only people who can be indoctrinated are those "unable to think for themselves" either. Education is the key, and teaching proper critical thinking skills. With the right education, someone "unable to think for themselves" can actually become amazingly good at it.

Strangely enough, those indoctrinated at a very young age, like many Muslims and other extremists, are far more likely to be "unable to think for themselves" once they get older. If that isn't reason enough to conclude that indoctrination itself is bad, then I don't know what is.

I read this last night as I was signing off.

I forgot it was there until just now.

Ok, ok. Let me get a cup of coffee.... and see what I can do with this.
And no... the "frrosted" quip wasn't lost on me, either.... since we are flirting with the subject of cereal killers and.. as you suggest.. I am a bit of a flake.

Cereal still beats the heck out of crumpets and tea with milk.

humphreys wrote:I'd like to weigh in on that one, Frrosted.

Obviously, if Christianity is true, it's not a problem at all, as these people will be indoctrinated into a belief system that's most likely to get them into heaven.

Of course, from the unbelievers point of view, Christianity is not true, and therefore someone being indoctrinated will have a lot of draw backs for them and society in general.

Religion can cause conflict. Whether it's families clashing over beliefs, or Biblical interpretations, or a son having to tell his highly religious Dad that he is gay. It doesn't just cause conflict with others, it causes internal conflict, too, in guilt over things like sex, strange beliefs towards things like Stem Cell research, global warming denial, evolution denial, suppression of scientific and other progress based on Bible texts, and the list goes on.

But the conflict is still there and families still clash. If it's not for religious reasons, it's for others: politics, race relations, drug use, work habits, and yes... even homosexuality. The vast majority of parents are not overjoyed and throwing parties when their children come out of the closet, whether they are believers or religious or not.

Then you get specific problems caused by certain branches of Christianity, that might involve not using birth control, or unnecessarily circumcising their child.

Christianity preaches abstinence. And, if that solution were actually implemented, unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases would practically cease to exist. But the bigger point is, you may believe that birth control is good and circumcision is bad (circumcision is proven to be the healthier alternative by the way), but your opinion isn't necessarily morally superior and I don't see how you can assume it is, which you obviously do.

Depending on how literal the person takes the Bible, depends on just how destructive it can be.

I don't agree that the only people who can be indoctrinated are those "unable to think for themselves" either. Education is the key, and teaching proper critical thinking skills. With the right education, someone "unable to think for themselves" can actually become amazingly good at it.

Part of "being able to think for yourself" (which is not to be taken entirely literally) is maturing and learning. People who I consider disadvantaged enough to where they can't formulate their own paradigms and make informed, sensible decisions regarding spiritual or moral matters, are: Young children; People with a significantly low IQ (not including mental retardation); People who are emotionally disfunctional due to trauma (a surprisingly high number of people I'm sure); and so on. I wasn't talking about people with zero education who live under a rock and get flogged by a preacher everytime they hint that they may not believe.

Strangely enough, those indoctrinated at a very young age, like many Muslims and other extremists, are far more likely to be "unable to think for themselves" once they get older.

To me that fits under emtional trauma and mental abuse. Now, when we start seeing Christians suicide-bombing innocent crowds at the street markets, flying jumbo jets into skyscrapers, slicing heads off of people on TV, dragging the burning bodies of people they don't like behind cars, or just gathering by the tens of thousands and shaking their fists in the air while they chant hate speech and death threats.... then we may have something. But until then, your point is valid only for fanatic Islam and I don't have any counterarguments.

If that isn't reason enough to conclude that indoctrination itself is bad, then I don't know what is.

You seem to have built a little bit of a strawman. I never said indoctrination is good. I said that for those who are susceptible TO it... Christian indoctrination is superior to most any other form I can think of. That's my opinion, but, if you think Atheistic or Agnostic indoctrination (which occurs daily in our public schools) is superior, then please explain why it is superior.

frrostedman wrote:Cereal still beats the heck out of crumpets and tea with milk.

You say tea with milk like there's any other way sane people drink it