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Postby shadowcass » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:17 pm

[quote="orangetom1999If one reads carefully ..both the Olde and New Testament ...there is no instruction for any of God's people to observe and celebrate a birthday. For the history is that this was already being done in the Pagan Nations surrounding Ancient Israel. This tradition comes from Paganism.IOrangetom[/quote]

Yes, well, OrangeTom...you say Paganism like it's a dirty word. I ask you, Brother, if it weren't for Paganism would we have the Roman Catholic Church? NO! And what a tragedy that would be...I mean...who would remember the Hunchback if, instead of being "of Notre Dame" he were the Hunchback of Fresno? No one!

Yay, paganism, I say. Without it there would be no Easter, no Christmas, no Halloween...and NO Birthday Parties...not even one for Mickey Mouse. http://www.archive.org/download/BillyMu ... yParty.mp3

**********************************************************************************************************
But on a more serious note. You are, of course, free to practice your Faith as you see it.
We are FREE in Christ, OrangeTom...ALL things (including Birthdays) are lawful for us. 1 Corinthians 10:29-31. "Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

*****************************************************************************************************
And remember...there are many things not in Scripture that we do each day...not asking the Source...suppose you found out tomorrow that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs had gotten their technological smarts straight from the Devil---"the Prince of the Power of the Air"..would you stop using your Apple or you PC or your iPod?

No. For it can be turned to ANY use you wish to make of it. You can use it to glorify God. Just as Christmas (which was a heathen celebration) has become a time when (thanks to books like A CHRISTMAS CAROL) when people think of others and Do for others. It is not Christ's Birthday...no. And the Christmas tree was originally a phallic symbol (that's why you hang balls on it :lol: ) but it's also the Tannenbaum...have ye not heard the song?

"O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How sturdy God hath made thee!
Thou bidds't us all place faithfully
Our trust in God, unchangingly!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How sturdy God hath made thee!"

It isn't ABOUT the source of a thing...it is what it means to the INDIVIDUAL.

God is bigger than you think, my friend...and can turn ALL things to HIS good.
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Epistle to the Romans 8:28
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Postby bionic » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:08 pm

in my son's socal school relgion was taken out of daily school stuff (so to not offend..and the whole seperation of church and state stuff)so much that they did not realize they were begining to push paganism

halloween became harvest festival

the christmas tree was renamed 'the winter tree' (something like that)

I found it ironic
Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams
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Postby zoltan2 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:58 am

I guess they wanted to be fair for all the other kids of all the other religions.

Harvest festival sounds cool to me so does winter tree festival. And let the kids dress up.

Let it take other tones once at home
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Postby shadowcass » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:04 am

As has already been noted by others Christmas BEGAN as a Pagan Festival anyway...so if the Pagans choose to reclaim their holiday one cannot truly complain. As for the Christmas Tree...IT'S source lies in the "Sacred Groves" devoted to various goddesses (Ashtoreth/Astarte comes to mind) . The Easter Egg comes from the Legend of Semiramis who came to earth in a space-traversing egg (UFO???) which the fish then pushed to shore (seems she'd forgotten to equip it with an outboard motor) and she stepped forth fully grown blah blah blah.

But as previpusly noted by ME a symbol means whatever it means to YOU. What it meant to other people in another time is whatever it meant. Like the Swastika, you know. In India (and Tibet) it symbolizes the Powers of Light...as used by the Nazis (who reversed the symbol) it came to symbolize the Power of Darkness.

The cross in ancient mythology symbolized the quartering of the universe into active and passive principles. To Christians it symbolizes the sacrificial death of the Son of God. In my YOUTH in the 1950s you found one on the roof of every home. But it just meant that the people had a television and wanted clear reception.

But teach your children what these celebratuions mean to you at home. It isn't something you really want to delegate to others anyway.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:33 am

Shadowcass,

One of the things I have run across...but not intended ...in reading the Word is Occult Studies. It is in there if one can think further than the pages..or the flesh as it is stated in God's Word.

Another sidelight of learning about "Occult Patterns or Principles" is the study of "Counterfeits" and counterfeit principles.

This is an arena which will never be taught in public schools..and sadly enough will never be taught in many "Christian Churches" while they teach the "Feel Good/I''m ok..your ok religion."

I do not travel to the east..up seven steps..but I know what it means and can follow the pattern from the garden of Eden to the present.
By this knowledge I also have discerned that politics is a religion and a very devout and zealous one. And politics is Occult in it/s nature and operation. And politics finances public education. Thus meaning an Occult education in which much is missing/concealed from which can benefit the student. One will get enough to function within the system/cosmos..but not enough to think for yourself outside of it.

And Eastern Religious doctrine and practice comes in a thousand forms. The Word of God in only one.

One of the most interesting things to me which happened around here and right on the television/boob tube...around the Xmas season...was an interview with a historian at Colonial Williamsburg here in Virginia. The program was discussing the Christmas season in colonial times. The historian was asked if he knew how the early colonialists decorated their houses for the Christmas season.

In support of the season today..the historian told a bold faced lie to the listening audience. He said that they have no surviving records of how the colonialists decorated their houses for Christmas..but we think they would have decorated like this.....

And proceeded to show how the reconstructed Colonial Williamsburg is decorated today.

To those who know the history...the early colonialists did not celebrate Christmas and also therefore did not decorate their houses. This is why there are no records of how the early colonialists decorated their houses..they did not do it.
In this state...Christmas did not become a holiday until some time in the 1800s. And different states took up the holiday at different times.


http://www.thehistoryofchristmas.com/ch/in_america.htm

One of the most influential books which taught me the origins of many of our "holydays" is

"The Two Babylons"

by

Alexander Hislop circa 1912

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/

I still keep this book in my private collection as a reference.

I will wear no cross...and put up no tree..nor pass out presents or keep this day. I partake of none of that kind of Holyday. No interest in it.

I will also put no cuttings in my flesh or marks for the dead. I have a sufficient number of scars from my occupation and labors. No need to artificially enhance them.

I also do not keep Easter, Halloween or other days..they are all the same to me.

I do not observe dietary laws...as all things are good to eat. That is not a license to carelessly indulge..but that we are not under dietary bondage..including Catholic dietary bondage.

...suppose you found out tomorrow that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs had gotten their technological smarts straight from the Devil---"the Prince of the Power of the Air"..would you stop using your Apple or you PC or your iPod?


I do not worship Bill Gates, nor Steve Jobs, nor this computer, nor keep a day around them or this product. Also don't own an I pod. The technology keeps changing faster than I have any desire to keep up.

No. For it can be turned to ANY use you wish to make of it. You can use it to glorify God. Just as Christmas (which was a heathen celebration) has become a time when (thanks to books like A CHRISTMAS CAROL) when people think of others and Do for others. It is not Christ's Birthday...no. And the Christmas tree was originally a phallic symbol (that's why you hang balls on it ) but it's also the Tannenbaum...have ye not heard the song?


Yes..I know all this from the Two Babylons and other sources.

I also know that the winter solstice is on December 21/22..the shortest day of the year...when the sun/sun god is in the heavens the shortest length of time..hence the sun god dies on December 21/22. The Pagan pattern and template is that 3 days in the grave and the sun god is raised and resurrected ..renewed again on December 24/25..born again in the newness of life.

There is no date given for the birth of Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins. This is a deliberate omission by God. Because it is not important. The Importance of Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins is His death and for whom He died and shed His blood.

"O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How sturdy God hath made thee!
Thou bidds't us all place faithfully
Our trust in God, unchangingly!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How sturdy God hath made thee!"


My mother is Lutheran German..from Frankfurt AM. She can also speak and read High German..Hoch Deutsch.
Interestingly enough I also have a Martin Luther Bible in my collection written in Hoch Deutsch from the 1930s. When I am interested in a certain passage I have my mother read it and translate for me. It more closely follows the King James Version verses the Vaticanus or Alexandrian/Aleph/Codex Sinaiticus.

Suggest you read..Jeremiah Chapter 10 verse 1 through 5. I found it very interesting and telling. I don't believe the average Believer even knows it is in there and their ministers don't teach them..hence ..what it means.
I believe if we knew what the Hebrews were getting involved into ...we would be able to see what the Christians are doing in following the very same pattern today. Little difference.
Many Christians today are in this world and of this world.

It isn't ABOUT the source of a thing...it is what it means to the INDIVIDUAL.


I disagree..It is indeed about the source of the thing and if it is from God or from somewhere else.
This is what the Word teaches me.


Bionic,

in my son's socal school relgion was taken out of daily school stuff (so to not offend..and the whole seperation of church and state stuff)so much that they did not realize they were begining to push paganism


If they are teaching paganism..they are teaching a religion and there is no separation. They just want to separate from anything Christian in origins.
It is OK to teach paganism..while claiming separation of church and state. When you realize the whole of what is going on ...while they claim separation of church and state...this does not even make good nonsense.
Understand now by what I mean when I state..."Privily??"

Not realizing that a thing is being taught is called..."Privily" in secret, hidden , concealed...even esoteric. Esoteric meaning known only to a chosen few..initiates. The other word for this is "Occult." Occult meaning hidden, concealed, and even esoteric.

This is exactly the pattern which the Ancient Hebrews got caught up into and for which the eventually lost the land and inheritance given by God.
This is why I often state that Politics is a concealed, esoteric, occult religion. And politics is zealously financing public education through college levels. It is not difficult to connect the dots once you learn to think outside the box of what someone uses to try and limit/control us.
It is good that you realize this...and it is indeed ironic when you know the whole of a thing and its history.


Shadowcass,

The cross in ancient mythology symbolized the quartering of the universe into active and passive principles. To Christians it symbolizes the sacrificial death of the Son of God. In my YOUTH in the 1950s you found one on the roof of every home. But it just meant that the people had a television and wanted clear reception.


Active and passive principles..yes..I learned about this when reading "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike..on Scottish Rite Freemasonry.

This is one of the sources from which I learn how far back many of these customs go. Active and passive principles are also from the Ancient Fertility Religions. The very thing the Hebrews were taught and instructed not to get caught up into. For the nations surrounding Ancient Israel were already heavily involved in these Fertility practices..even to the point that some of them were sacrificing their children to their gods.

What you learn in books like Morals and Dogma..is that the cross to many pagan cultures is the male principle... "I" and the female principle... "-" combined to this "+". It is the intersection of the male and female. Hence it is from the olde fertility religions.

The compass and square is a variation of the same thing. The Square is female and matter..the male is the Compass and energy. The male mounting the female.

This is outlined in Morals and Dogma and it is the first place I found it in writing.
I was quite astonished the first time I read it.

Once you know the pattern ...you can see them inserting this religion into movies and television programs. Sometimes subtle and sometimes openly. And often in ways that the ordinary person/the profane is not aware..but an adept/an initiate is aware of it.

2001 a Space Odyssey is a pure pagan religion under the guise of science or science fiction. When you finish watching this movie you have been to a church sermon.

so too it is with the Sequel

2010 The year we make contact.

These are both pagan church sermons under the guise of science fiction.

Make that .."Privily."

Stanley Kubrick does indeed make some unusual high budget movies.
When they are genuinely selling a religion amongst they often pull out the budget stops.

Hope this helps some of you.

Thanks,

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Postby shadowcass » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:21 am

Yes, well, OrangeTom., you limit God by your perceptions my friend. Do you think God ONLY reveals Himself through the Bible?

No.

He reveals Himself in many ways to mankind. Do you think God does not hear the prayer of one who is truly seeking Him.

"Whoso cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out."

Christians have a relationship with God, yes. But it isn't based on whether or not you celebrate Christmas...nor is it based on what Jeremiah has to say about the Sacred Groves. The two cases are not equal. No one who sets up a Christmas tree does it because they worship the tree nor are they worshipping the Goddess to whom the grove was sacred. To the Christian who celebrates that day it is all about Christ and they ARE thinking about Him. Do you think Christ does not know and does not accept their love simply because of what the tree USED to mean?
How little is your faith and what a LOW opinion you must have of Him to think so.

"Let not him who does not eat condemn him who eats" (Romans 14)

You are so caught up in your ideas ABOUT what it means to be a Christian "Don't do this and do do that and then God will Love you" that you miss being a Christian.

You miss Faith. Which is the only quality God is looking for.

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

---Galatians 3:2-3
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Postby orangetom1999 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:55 am

Shadowcass,
Yes, well, OrangeTom., you limit God by your perceptions my friend. Do you think God ONLY reveals Himself through the Bible?



No Shadowcass..God does not only reveal Himself by and through the Bible. He reveals himself to those He Chooses.
What the Bible or Word does is give us information on the pattern and operation of God and also of the god of this world. In such a manner the Bible serves as Armor to shield and identify that in this world for which we are not to become ensnared. Tangled up..to meet confusion...to the point of confusion.

This is what happened to the Hebrews. And we have the Record of this in the Olde Testament and even the New Testament Church trying to go back to the bondage of the Olde Testament.

He reveals Himself in many ways to mankind. Do you think God does not hear the prayer of one who is truly seeking Him.


He reveals Himself to His people...those He has Chosen and for His purposes. To mankind he leaves them where they are at....imagining what they will...just as did the 70 elders in the basement of His Temple..doing what they would..from Ezekiel 7&8. Imagining what they would. Worshipping the creature and not the Creator.

Christians have a relationship with God, yes. But it isn't based on whether or not you celebrate Christmas...nor is it based on what Jeremiah has to say about the Sacred Groves. The two cases are not equal.


Correct here Shadowcass. However it is based on obedience to His Word..not to get saved...but because when we understand what His Word says and does not say....certain things become clear. We do not do certain things because those who came before us step by step became caught up in the wiles of this world ..in the traditions of men. And we choose by His knowledge by His revealing to us through His Word..... not to become involved in them. Not to follow the traditions of men.

As to the Groves...many of the Kings and eventually the Hebrews themselves became caught up in the worship of other gods ..in the hills and groves in the daytime and in the valleys at night.
I have several books on Freemasonry..including the Encyclopedia...by Singleton and Mackay.
In it there are many woodcuts. One of them is of top hatted masons on the hills in a group doing worship services in the day...to the sun and also another in the valleys at night.
In case you dont know ..the tophat tuxedo and gloves is the formal uniform of the lodge.

Watch carefully the surrender of the Japanese deligation to General McAurther and his deligation on the battleship Missouri..in Tokyo Bay in 1945. Notice what the Civilians in the Japanese Deligation are wearing. You are looking at one lodge surrendering to another lodge.

The same applies in WW1..with the King of England, the Tsar of Russia, The Kaiser of Germany, THe King of Greece...et al...all lodge members and all cousins.
It was a lodge family war. But this is seldom taught today...particularly in public school.
All of them related through Queen Victoria.

I am saying that many of these wars are lodge wars of conquest. Not what is taught and fed to us in the media..or in public schools.

Yet we are taught to take sides by the same esoteric, Occult , concealed, Privy media shilling for the prominent political parties. Lodge members.

All is not as it seems.

I knew exactly what George Bush was when he stated in an interview that he believed in a Supreme Being. This is a watchword to adepts.

I knew exactly what was being shown at the Country Western Awards when very quickly the opening curtain/ screen was shown to be a compass and square with the sunburst inside it. This was only flashed on the curtain/ screen for about one second..but I caught it..because I have studied it. Most of the public would not have caught it.

This is done all the time ..not to the general public but to adepts in the audience.

Frank Sinatra before his passing used to make public speeches ..some ofthem on television and to most people they would seem strange..but I caught the implication.

Same with Louis Farrakhan at his million man march. He made a speech about three ruffians..and compared the ruffians to Jesse Helms , and that detective from the Oj trial..Mark somebody..his name escapes me at the moment..and then a third person.. Mark Furhman I think!?

But unless you know the pattern ..and they do this often..you would not know that Farrakhan was speaking not to the general public ..but to certain adepts or initiates.
People in positions of power or authority.

This is done often to us ..right in front of us...but it is not directed to us.

Knowledge is power..as the saying goes.

As Believers we are taught to let our yes be yes..and no be no. Not to speak in signs or privily ..with our fingers etc etc. That a thing not be done in the dark. Is this something taught in schools today?? Or is this kind of thinking avoided??

You are so caught up in your ideas ABOUT what it means to be a Christian "Don't do this and do do that and then God will Love you" that you miss being a Christian.


You are in error here Shadowcass..
I do what I do or dont do..not to get saved or to have God love me. Not at all. I do not believe in salvation by works. I do certain works or dont do others because I it follows a pattern shown by God.....through His Word..not by the traditions of men.

For I know that I deserve hell and damnation..nothing better. I do not save myself...nor anyone else. This too I know from His Word. Nor does a human priest save me as well.

This is the opposite position from the traditions of men and the religions of this world.

You miss Faith. Which is the only quality God is looking for.


God does indeed look for Faith upon is. In this case Faith is the name of a person. God also looks for one other thing associated with FAith..He looks for Blood ..that we are covered by the Blood..Through this person Faith.

Blood and Faith are two among His many names.

For you see Shadowcass..I also know that the pagans have faith as well. They also have trinitys according to their own religions. And the pagans will offer up their own version of blood..even if it means killing millions and millions in the next war unto their god/gods.

Hope this helps,
Orangetom
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Postby gudskepteacal » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:00 pm

That's good old school stuff orangetom, do you see the personal relationship with Jesus talked about here shadowcass? Not about clergy dressed up as go-betweens for person and Saviour, about the 1 on 1 relationship/pact with Jesus that exemplifies salvation.

Maybe reveal(when it's used in conjunction with God) is a word that should be defined more: does it mean strictly miracle type phenom. or anything that touches/changes someone's life in a spiritual kind of way.
"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." - James Madison
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Postby bionic » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:00 am

wouldn't it be funny if Jesus quit?
said "F you all..I am done with this shite..save yourselves"
Go Jesus!!!
:thumbup:
Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams
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Postby orangetom1999 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:26 am

gudskepteacal wrote:That's good old school stuff orangetom, do you see the personal relationship with Jesus talked about here shadowcass? Not about clergy dressed up as go-betweens for person and Saviour, about the 1 on 1 relationship/pact with Jesus that exemplifies salvation.

Maybe reveal(when it's used in conjunction with God) is a word that should be defined more: does it mean strictly miracle type phenom. or anything that touches/changes someone's life in a spiritual kind of way.



Ahhh...gudskepteacal,

So you caught it..line upon line..precept upon precept. I am happy in His Name that someone else knows and sees.

However...concerning miracles.

What Astonished me ...what to me is a miracle ...is that God would choose a bum like me to know what I know..when it goes against everything I once knew and believed in. I speak here of days past when I "traveled" in the fast food lane..so to speak.

When this change began to take over me..It was those with whom I associated who first noticed it..not me.

They told me I no longer wanted to run in the fast food lane...with them.
It was at times difficult and uncomfortable..but as I began to realize the difference..the change..I grew into it.

But there were times when I tried to steer away from this change...to find anyway I could to get away from it..to find a corner to hide in and continue in the "fast food lane."

One day I realized I was out of corners and excuses.

Thanks,
Orangetom
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