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Discuss the War on Terrorism, Homeland Security, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea and other global terrorist concerns.

Postby Cole_Trickle » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:13 am

Pretty simple, as demonstrated by the previous administration and continued by certain segments of the current one. They are over stepping, and doing so regardless of anything written pro or con on any previous documents that pertain to, for or against any citizen rights. Bill of Rights, Constitution included.

Some citizens have a different playbook/rulebook when it comes to rights. The government will always pit one against the other just to keep everyone on their respective toes.

I'm not anti Government, just anti-Big Government~~slash~~BIG BROTHER GOVERNMENT. I'm pretty sure I don't need anyone telling me when and how to sweep my porch or wipe my nose. Whether or not failure to do so in a timely manner can be deemed a matter of National Security is surely open foR debate. Is it not? :lol: :lol:

Cole
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Postby screamzero » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:45 am

Wiping your nose might not be a big concern...but you know..the Other End?...that's a worry. HOWEVER....that is no bidness of mine. I say live and let live...'ceptin' fer the wig wad Gubbament. I couldn't agree w/ you more. :shock: (Kee-riSt, I must be slippin'!)...no..I'm not. I mean it. Their only concern is to see we never ever get skA-RoOd...not....you know...do the wild thang on us.
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Postby Nesaie » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:11 pm

Jaack wrote:How patently false is your assumption nesaie, and Robs erudite assertion.

First you folks need to actually read the Constitution and the amendments. Collecting information is specifically allowed in the constitution.


Which version? The one originally agreed upon? Or the one the feds want us to read today?

Here is the fed version of the Bill of Rights (oh, and I've read both versions) I'm only going up through the first 10 in the Bill of Rights:

The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise. It protects freedom of speech, the press, assembly, and the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The Second Amendment gives citizens the right to bear arms.

The Third Amendment prohibits the government from quartering troops in private homes, a major grievance during the American Revolution.

The Fourth Amendment protects citizens from unreasonable search and seizure. The government may not conduct any searches without a warrant, and such warrants must be issued by a judge and based on probable cause.

The Fifth Amendment provides that citizens not be subject to criminal prosecution and punishment without due process. Citizens may not be tried on the same set of facts twice, and are protected from self-incrimination (the right to remain silent). The amendment also establishes the power of eminent domain, ensuring that private property is not seized for public use without just compensation.

The Sixth Amendment assures the right to a speedy trial by a jury of one's peers, to be informed of the crimes with which they are charged, and to confront the witnesses brought by the government. The amendment also provides the accused the right to compel testimony from witnesses, and to legal representation.

The Seventh Amendment provides that civil cases also be tried by jury.

The Eighth Amendment prohibits excessive bail, excessive fines, and cruel and unusual punishments.

The Ninth Amendment states that the list of rights enumerated in the Constitution is not exhaustive, and that the people retain all rights not enumerated.

The Tenth Amendment assigns all powers not delegated to the United States, or prohibited to the states, to either the states or to the people.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/our_governmen ... stitution/

Here is the real version:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution ... ights.html

It is the feds, the whitehouse who doesn't know the Bill of Rights, not me.

Those fascists can go to hell.
Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky
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Postby Nesaie » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:54 pm

Jaack wrote:How patently false is your assumption nesaie, and Robs erudite assertion.

First you folks need to actually read the Constitution and the amendments. Collecting information is specifically allowed in the constitution.


WRONG!

From Public Law 93-579

SECTION 2
(a) The Congress finds that –
(1) the privacy of an individual is directly affected by the collection, maintenance,
use, and dissemination of personal information by Federal agencies;
(2) the increasing use of computers and sophisticated information technology, while
essential to the efficient operations of the Government, has greatly magnified the
harm to individual privacy that can occur from any collection, maintenance, use, or
dissemination of personal information;
(3) the opportunities for an individual to secure employment, insurance, and credit,
and his right to due process, and other legal protections are endangered by the
misuse of certain information systems;
(4) the right to privacy is a personal and fundamental right protected by the
Constitution of the United States;
and
(5) in order to protect the privacy of individuals identified in information systems
maintained by Federal agencies, it is necessary and proper for the Congress to
regulate the collection, maintenance, use, and dissemination of information by such
agencies.
(b) The purpose of this Act is to provide certain safeguards for an individual against an
invasion of personal privacy by requiring Federal agencies, except as otherwise provided
by law, to --
(1) permit an individual to determine what records pertaining to him are collected,
maintained, used,


http://www.defenselink.mil/privacy/documents/pa1974.pdf

Not according to Katz v. United States 389 U.S. 347

Katz v. United States 389 U.S. 347 (1967)

In this case, a reasonable expectation of privacy test was created. Federal agents had attached a listening device to the outside of a phone booth that was know to be often used by Mr. Katz. Evidence of his end of the conversations obtained by the listening device was admitted in his trial in which he was accused of transmitting wagering information by telephone. The lower court held that this was not a search because the wall of the phone booth had not been physically penetrated. Their ruling was based on Olmstead v. United States (1928) in which the Supreme Court had ruled that a tap of a telephone did not constitute a search.

In Katz, the Supreme Court ruled that the electronic "listening to" and recording of Mr. Katz's conversation violated the privacy upon which he justifiably relied and thus constituted a search and seizure under the Fourth Amendment. Justic John M. Harlan, in a concurring opinion, established a two part test for this right of privacy. First, a person must exhibit an actual expectation of privacy. Second, this expectation must be one that society recognizes as "reasonable".


http://www.fourthamendmentsummaries.com ... cases.html

The full text: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... &invol=347

Come on Jaack...bring it on! :P :P :P :P
Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky
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Postby Jaack » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:15 pm

Nesaie wrote:Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Define unreasonable
AND

Just cause Congress passes a law does not make it Constitutional.
What?
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Postby Nesaie » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:45 pm

Unreasonable is defined by court cases.

You're still wrong according to these court cases that I've quoted. It is reasonable to believe that talking in a phone booth is private. That too can be extended to cell phones, texts and emails, as I have already shown.

For you to claim that the Constitution does not uphold the right to privacy shows your ignorance.

Prove your claim that the Constitution gives the tyrannical illegitimate government a right to spy on law abiding citizens first, then I'll show you the definition of "reasonable". But, don't try this tactic on me. I've proven you wrong already. Now, it is your turn to prove yourself, or at least to attempt to disprove the court cases that I've already referenced.

Do you get six figures? Mael and I are both thinking about changing career paths and are wondering if we could do your job at the pentagon better than you.
Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky
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Postby Jaack » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:52 pm

Nope unreasonable was redefined during FDRs terms where he threw the constitution out the window. IDK about court cases case law is there to be reversed.

Look at all the times the Supreme Court has reversed itself. Slavery, segregation etc...
What?
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Postby Tairaa » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:54 am

Jaack is against privacy. :lol:

You're not an American! You don't support freedom!
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Postby Jaack » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:13 am

You have no idea what your on about but it makes you feel good.

The govt has the right to collect information as much as people have the right to privacy. Where you people and your ilk are mistaken is that in criminal cases there is a stricter means for evidence gathering. That does not apply in information gathering.
What?
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Postby Tairaa » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:15 am

How does one kill an individual and let him live at the same time?
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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