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Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby Guest » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:17 pm

Hi,

True Indian beliefs are beautiful and focus on ancestors and nature, but a person needs to be careful and discerning to see if what they are reading is in fact ancient beliefs or New Age trickery.

This "new age" stuff is shifting the focus away from the true word of God, and many other beliefs, mixing them together and adding subtle lies. Though it is very beautiful, I don't trust it. Lucifer can appear to us as a beautiful angel of light, but his ways are deceiving. Disembodied spirits are not something I believe or trust. Their just too "tricky" in my opinion, and a OUIJA board opens spiritual gates that should be left closed.

This is just what I believe, but if you take it as your truth, I have no reason or right to judge you. It really does sound good, but the Psalms sound just as good.

Item7
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Postby sandra » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:00 pm

Item7 wrote:Hi,

True Indian beliefs are beautiful and focus on ancestors and nature, but a person needs to be careful and discerning to see if what they are reading is in fact ancient beliefs or New Age trickery.


would like to add a few things. One, I am very aware of what is 'Christian' belief, and what is of my Native Culture, but I do believe in both, still distinguishing differences.

2) My beliefs of my Native American culture do not stem from new age. I am part of the grand medicine society, and the teachings I receive are as original to Ojibwe people as the bible is to Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midewiwin

Another thing, Item7, it would be wise to understand that no matter what the source, bible, birch wood scrolls, meditation, any truth, can be used for self service. It is the intent behind anything, or anyone, new age or not.
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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Postby Guest » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:37 am

Hi,

sandra, I think its wonderful that you practice your ancestors traditions. I wish more people would search for and follow their roots. I live in Wisconsin, so I am very familiar with The Ojibwa. Every year my husband and I go to a Pow wow nearby. You might be surprised at how much I know about American Indian traditions and culture.


I never said Christian belief was the same as Native American beliefs, so I don't know what your talking about. All I said was I thought Native American beliefs were beautiful.


But please don't tell me what is "wise" in a superior attitude, as I stand by the conviction that New Age is a mish mash of beliefs borrowing from many different sources. It lures people into evil and dangerous practices, such as using a OUIJA board or worshiping Angels.


It would be "wise for you to know" that the road to hell is paved with "good intentions". I don't care what a persons intentions are, if their playing with the devils toys, they can expect to get evil results, surely you must know that's true.

Item7
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Postby sandra » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:47 pm

Item7 wrote:Hi,
I never said Christian belief was the same as Native American beliefs, so I don't know what your talking about. All I said was I thought Native American beliefs were beautiful.



Item7 wrote:True Indian beliefs are beautiful and focus on ancestors and nature, but a person needs to be careful and discerning to see if what they are reading is in fact ancient beliefs or New Age trickery.


Why don't you give me an example of New Age trickery that is tied in with Native American Beliefs? I don't like reading 'New Age Trickery' in the same sentance as "True Indian beliefs", if you know anything about Native Culture you would understand why. The fact is so many real Native American legends and beliefs are actually mistaken for New Age tricker, when in reality it is only the purpose and intent behind some of these groups that make it other than what it is, sacred. The white people that used that Sweat lodge rings a bell- They were messing around with things they didn't know enough about.- Sweat Lodge is a scared womb of mother earth, how did they all die in there? Their awareness and intent was not where it should have been, playing around with 'New Age Trickery'?

Yes, definitely be careful, if you have not even a mind for yourself people.

wiki wrote:"Some adherents of traditional disciplines such as the Lakota people, a tribe of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, reject the term New Age. They see the movement it represents as either not fully understanding, deliberately trivializing, or distorting their disciplines.[67]

They have coined the term plastic shaman to describe individuals who identify themselves as shamans, holy people, or other traditional spiritual leaders, but who have no genuine connection to the traditions or cultures they claim to represent. The academic Ward Churchill has criticised the New Age Movement as an instrument of cultural imperialism that is exploitative of indigenous cultures by reducing it to a commodity to be traded


But please don't tell me what is "wise" in a superior attitude, as I stand by the conviction that New Age is a mish mash of beliefs borrowing from many different sources. It lures people into evil and dangerous practices, such as using a OUIJA board or worshiping Angels.


Evil and dangerous practices has nothing to do with intent? I know I love sitting in my sweat lodge, but I sure wouldn't have wanted to be in one with plastic covering the top of it. You think a OUIJA board has power all on its own?


It would be "wise for you to know" that the road to hell is paved with "good intentions". I don't care what a persons intentions are, if their playing with the devils toys, they can expect to get evil results, surely you must know that's true.

Item7


Hypo... :mrgreen: Wow, you don't think a persons reasoning matters? And you tell me not to tell you to be wise? Lets remember something, the bible is just as much a 'devils' TOY as it can be a real Christians. The bible is a tool, the word is written within? Please tell me I'm on the road to hell, you might just make my day, and thats not sarcasm entirely- thats realising we are on opposite ends and I'm not minding my position whatsoever.

The reason I commented on your post to begin with was there you are claiming New Age is meshed in with Native American TRUE Indian beliefs, and here I had just got done explaining alot of TRADITIONAL Indian beliefs, and you go and add New Age into all this. --Doing what you are accusing people of. Distorting views. You can see it a thousand other ways, it was nothing but that.

New Age = Nothing more than ignorant people. It has nothing to do with specific belief systems, but surely you must know- Alot is thrown in the face of Native American Belief. Everyone is subect to 'lies', Atheism has its own role in trickery, surely I have never heard you mention going to hell to an Atheist around here. :roll:
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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Location: Minnesota US

Postby sandra » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:58 pm

Item7 wrote:Hi,

This is just what I believe, but if you take it as your truth, I have no reason or right to judge you. It really does sound good, but the Psalms sound just as good.

Item7



Hi. Ok, its settled then? ;)
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
sandra
 
Posts: 3704
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:27 pm
Location: Minnesota US

Postby Guest » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:14 pm

Hi,

Sandra, wow, you have totally misread my post! Its my fault actually because I had several things going through my mind when I wrote that first post, so I was kinda jumping around 3 different topics.

The first was American Indian traditions. I think its beautiful and rings with truth. My husbands side of the family has Indian blood. Even though I studied Shamanism and Earth magic before I met him, he played a big part of me getting more involved, and learning more.

But then I went into my feelings about New age stuff, which by now you know how I feel about , Lol.

Then I changed directions again, and was talking about how I think the Christian bible is full of beautiful verse, especially the Psalms. I then said that whatever is a persons truth is what they should follow, in which I meant American Indian.

Reading it over myself, if I did not know me, I would of been equally confused.

When I wrote the second post, in response to yours, I was a little ticked off because your post seemed a little uppity and it upset me to think you thought I did not know what I was talking about. Lol, so I'm sorry about that second one. I should of tried to see what you meant in your post better. Now I see that you thought I was saying something bad about the Indian traditions, but trust me, I would not do that.

I would like to give you a couple of examples of American Indian traditions being used in a New age ritual, from books I have had for many years, and from actual practice. One would be the use of smudging with sage. Yes, I know other traditions use smudging, like Catholics, and Buddhists, but I'm talking about NEW AGE practices. Sage is often used in ceremonies in conjunction with White and Black Magic, much like it was originally intended , but with different and dark intentions. The other would be the use of drums. Again I know other traditions use music and drums, but that's the whole point, New age mixes it up and pours it on thick.

New Age practices take and borrow from other, older traditions, not all of which are good. Anything from ancient Egyptian Gods and Goddesses to Christian sacraments to American Indian traditions, to Satanism are used, but changed to "trick" people into believing that what they are doing is harmless, when in fact it can be dangerous.

Yes, I do believe that a OUIJA board is a dangerous tool. It was made for the express purpose of opening spiritual doors, and channeling spirits. Most, if not all people should not play with a OUIJA board, simply because it is not a toy, but rather a powerful tool. The spirits that come through the board are not angels from Heaven, but rather deceiving and shape shifting spirits who like to trick people. It does not matter what a persons intentions are, they could be a sweet little ole lady wanting to get in touch with her late hubby, or a bunch of kids just "playing around".

Whew, this is rather long-winded, but I wanted to clear things up between us. I enjoy your posts and think we both just got the wrong message from each other. I'm leaving tomorrow for a short vacation to see my oldest son, down in Missouri, so I'll be back in a few days.

Take care,

Item7
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Postby malai5 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:51 pm

Item7 wrote:Hi,

Yes, I do believe that a OUIJA board is a dangerous tool. It was made for the express purpose of opening spiritual doors, and channeling spirits. Most, if not all people should not play with a OUIJA board, simply because it is not a toy, but rather a powerful tool. The spirits that come through the board are not angels from Heaven, but rather deceiving and shape shifting spirits who like to trick people. It does not matter what a persons intentions are, they could be a sweet little ole lady wanting to get in touch with her late hubby, or a bunch of kids just "playing around".
Item7


Item7, If "spirits" are people who used to be "alive" and are now "dead", why would they be anymore "deceiving" than those who are alive and well surrounding you now???

Cheers

Malai5
THE FURTHER YOU GO, THE LESS YOU KNOW!
http://www.mam3.com.au
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Postby Guest » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:00 pm

Hi,

malai5, Spirits that come though a OUIJA board are not the spirits of dead loved ones, or any human. They are entities which have never been in a human form, but rather are "trickster" spirits.

Many people are tricked into thinking they are talking to a dead person, when in fact they are being deceived. Without getting too deep into it, most of these spirits are of a lower hierarchy and can be called "mischievous" , and don't cause much harm to people, other than the noises heard in the night, and shadows seen passing, plus the occasional object being moved. But when you open the doors or gates of a OUIJA board you may also open it to other more malicious spirits, who can and do possess people and cause great emotional and physical distress.

In many cases, the "gate" that was opened during the "playing" of the OUIJA, doesn't get closed again and this causes all sorts of trouble.

What really gets to me is, people go to a Toy store and look in the games section to buy a OUIJA board. Marketing such a powerful and dangerous tool as a toy is really outrageous in my opinion.

Item7
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Postby sandra » Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:08 pm

Item7 wrote:Hi,

Sandra, wow, you have totally misread my post! Its my fault actually because I had several things going through my mind when I wrote that first post, so I was kinda jumping around 3 different topics.


It is just as much my fault. Yes I did misread some of what you stated.

But then I went into my feelings about New age stuff, which by now you know how I feel about , Lol.


Oh yes I got the point of how you feel about it. :mrgreen: However that I still disagree with. If you think about it, how long has Christianity been around as a Religion? Like you have said there are many belief 'systems' mixed in with New Age, but just because you choose to believe in truth from different organised groups, does not mean you are evil. That is what I thought you were suggesting? I'm Native American and a Catholic, there is nothing I can change about that and frankly I love myself for who I am, but my entire life I have been subject to ridicule by some of my Catholic Family for participating in both cultures. That is ignorance to me. People could even view me as New Age, well I don't have any problem with that here is why:

A Christian claiming New Age is the work of the Devil
Is no Different than:
An Atheist (New Age) claiming Christians are immoral.

Without a superior attitude- I stand outside this. I've stated my beliefs about Atheism- as far as I believe they are believers in God. One thing people haven't heard me talk about, is my acceptance of them. I do not believe God blames them. There is one thing God wants from us, and it is not mere worship. It is to know ourselves. To know who we are, and live truthfully and honestly with love. I believe many Atheists are doing much better getting to know themselves in a truthful manner than many fundamentalists. Atheism serves a purpose. If getting to know themselves in the best way they know how is to reject Christianity and world organised religion or the thought that they believe in God then that is the road that they must take. However, I believe all organised belief systems will be falling apart, they are meant to in the light of the truth. They will no longer be needed. In the face of natural disasters, and just world changing events, these differences will gradually unveil the truth, that we are all not so different after all. That under every rock, he can be found.

We are all doing what we can right now, and that is the most important thing to remember.

Then I changed directions again, and was talking about how I think the Christian bible is full of beautiful verse, especially the Psalms. I then said that whatever is a persons truth is what they should follow, in which I meant American Indian.


Okay yeah see, I thought you were going down a different road with that.

I should of tried to see what you meant in your post better.

So should I have, sometimes my words come out silly, I need to structure sentences much better.....maybe I'll improve when I start back college this April. :)

I would like to give you a couple of examples of American Indian traditions being used in a New age ritual, from books I have had for many years, and from actual practice. One would be the use of smudging with sage. Yes, I know other traditions use smudging, like Catholics, and Buddhists, but I'm talking about NEW AGE practices. Sage is often used in ceremonies in conjunction with White and Black Magic, much like it was originally intended , but with different and dark intentions. The other would be the use of drums. Again I know other traditions use music and drums, but that's the whole point, New age mixes it up and pours it on thick.


Thank you for giving me this explanation of New Age with Native Tradition, it helped me understand.

Although I will note something. I know an elder that will sing his songs at a lodge and beat his sacred drum, they use the medicines like sage during the ceremonies. This elder all the while supposedly blessing people is only worried about what he is going to personally gain from people who offer him gifts for his services.....thats wrong, thats what you call an old Indian who has turned' New Age'. If an old indian practicing his own traditions can be New Age, I believe anyone can be. New Age cannot be defined by merely people practicing beliefs and rituals outside of their origins.

Long time ago there was only one Native American real tradition, and that was to live with love and harmony, to know that what we did to the circle of life we did to ourselves.
There is only one tradition we should all have, to try and accept and love ourselves. That sounds more simple than it is.

I respect your belief of what New Age is, and the idea of trickery playing its part, just as much as I respect Humphrey claiming he does not believe in God. They are your thoughts, and they are there for a reason. :)

Have a safe trip to see your son! And by the way, I have also enjoyed your posts, I've learned quite a few things from them.
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
sandra
 
Posts: 3704
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:27 pm
Location: Minnesota US

Postby malai5 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:08 pm

Item7 wrote:Hi,

malai5, Spirits that come though a OUIJA board are not the spirits of dead loved ones, or any human. They are entities which have never been in a human form, but rather are "trickster" spirits.

Many people are tricked into thinking they are talking to a dead person, when in fact they are being deceived. Without getting too deep into it, most of these spirits are of a lower hierarchy and can be called "mischievous" , and don't cause much harm to people, other than the noises heard in the night, and shadows seen passing, plus the occasional object being moved. But when you open the doors or gates of a OUIJA board you may also open it to other more malicious spirits, who can and do possess people and cause great emotional and physical distress.

In many cases, the "gate" that was opened during the "playing" of the OUIJA, doesn't get closed again and this causes all sorts of trouble.

What really gets to me is, people go to a Toy store and look in the games section to buy a OUIJA board. Marketing such a powerful and dangerous tool as a toy is really outrageous in my opinion.

Item7


And just where does that information come from Item7???

Please don't tell me that it is from the Bible, or some such source which is purely "man" fabricated.
The truth is, Item7, you just do not know, you just believe it is so.


Cheers

Malai5
THE FURTHER YOU GO, THE LESS YOU KNOW!
http://www.mam3.com.au
malai5
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:40 am
Location: Australia

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