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Scientists and God

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby greeney2 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:22 pm

I guess thats another subject, if the Heart is or isn;t involved in things like Love and affection, an athelete that is said to be going on heart alone, or mourning a loss with a broken heart.
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Postby inja » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:21 pm

humphreys wrote:
inja wrote:Number 3 and 4 are correct..................imaginary or real is based on individuals perception.


Again, as with Sandra's, these kind of statements don't make a whole lot of sense.

We have a definition of "real" that we use, and in this regard, it would be something like "existing in reality, outside of the mind, in the real world". Imaginary would mean existing in the mind, and having no existence outside of it.

So, to suggest that evil and goodness are BOTH, really doesn't make sense.

How can it?


I get what you are saying but not everything in the world that we consider to be reality can be dissected with a scalpel. In what you term as the real world a good part of it is made of matter and this can be dissected, scrutinized, explained and is than presented in a rational manner in an educational forum. However a great part of "the real world" is considered reality without being dissected and is based on moral grounds such as our laws. Not God's laws or dogma but our simple everyday laws. Stopping at a stop sign, being busted for drugs or executed for murder. Those are laws based on good and bad or good and evil. Some of our laws certainly stem from our history with religious institutions never the less in a society that is based only on reality here too you will find that good and bad exists based on emotions, perceptions, morality......and that is certainly linked to our imagination or thought process. Science is really no better....a thought starts out in the mind linked to ones imagination and than is followed up with wanting to prove or disprove certain imaginary theories. Some hold up some don't of course.

In the Muslim world you get busted for stealing...chop chop off comes your hand (or it used to be that way).
In the Western world you get caught for stealing the punishment differers.
Which punishment is based more on reality of what is right or wrong...good or evil..

What is reality once you look beyond the material world? We certainly have incorporated a lot more of life that is considered reality vs imagination....but it all had to start out in the mind....the little grey area that is called imagination before it could become part of our standard reality.

And when it comes to the concept of a God existing......or good and evil....well you can take yourself as an example.

You met Mrs. Humphreys...you managed to get together.....you married.....you both produced a child. Marriage equals a piece of paper....child = swapping some bodily fluids, biology took over and viola a baby is born. The entire process can be scrutinized, categorized and explained with out any shred of doubt. Now I am going to a presume that before biology could take place some where along the line emotions on both of your sides took place and what we call attraction was the start of your story. Being attracted can of course also be explained by how our hormones are reacting to another individual.......but usually after attraction "love steps" in. Exactly how do you prove love? How do you define love? Where exactly does it come from? What is it that mrs. Humphreys has that triggered a feeling of love within you that is only dedicated to her? And visa versa.
Maybe you can beak it down in a reasonable and rational manner what the bond of love is between the both of you............and so i might have wasted my time responding to you...which is ok.

Some things are part of reality and are as real as can be but cannot at this time be explained by a scalpel or with an intelligent and rational mind.

A very large part of our lives started out with imagination and has been accepted as real.

I would never tell you that good and evil exists other than what my perception of good and evil is and my perception differs from a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew or any other religious dogma or for that matter it most likely differs from an atheist as well.
Kind of like the cliche saying.....we both can look out of the same window and yet see a different scenery.

Your love for mrs. humphreys or her for you is a personal experience that cannot be proven to me or anyone else....................God (I use that word very loosely) is not provable to someone else because it is a personal experience.
Truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:06 am

a thought starts out in the mind linked to ones imagination and than is followed up with wanting to prove or disprove certain imaginary theories. Some hold up some don't of course.


A hypothesis also has a third outcome, that it is still inconclusive and still ongoing. The experiment couldn't proove or disproove.
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Postby mrshumphreys » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:51 pm

greeney2 wrote:Lets just change this years Valentine's Day cards, and replace all the hearts, with romantic looking brains. That way more scientists may send one to their soulmates. :lol:



Eeeeeeeeew.
You just said "soulmate"!!!
"It's like arguing with a brick wall, except the brick wall thinks you're an idiot, and thinks it's winning." - Humphreys, that sexy beast.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
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Postby SmokinJoe » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:42 am

In reference to science and religion, in almost every discipline from genetics and physics, to biology and chemistry, there are scientists who are also believers in a Creator. Below is just one example. Enjoy!!

p.s. this isn't from some christian site, this is an article in Scientific American!

joe




The Christian Man's Evolution: How Darwinism and Faith Can Coexist
A geneticist ordained as a Dominican priest, Francisco J. Ayala sees no conflict between Darwinism and faith. Convincing most of the American public of that remains the challenge!

By Sally Lehrman


Image
Francisco Ayala
Courtesy the University of California, Irvine





Francisco J. Ayala pulls open the top drawer of a black cabinet and flips through nearly a dozen files, all neatly titled by publication and due date. These are the essays on evolution he has been churning out over the past six to eight weeks for popular books and magazines. “Hack jobs,” he calls them with a smile, bragging that each one takes only a day or two to complete.

After some 30 years of proselytizing about evolution to Christian believers, the esteemed evolutionary biologist at the University of California, Irvine, has honed his arguments to a fine point. He has stories and examples at the ready, even a shock tactic or two at his fingertips. One out of five pregnancies ends in spontaneous miscarriage, he often reminds audiences. Next he will pointedly ask, as in an interview with U.S. Catholic magazine last year, “If God explicitly designed the human reproductive system, is God the biggest abortionist of them all?” Through such examples, he explains, “I want to turn around their arguments.”

The 74-year-old Ayala is preparing for an exceptionally busy 2009. The year marks the bicentennial of Charles Darwin’s birthday and the sesquicentennial of the publication of On the Origin of Species, and the battle over the teaching of evolution is sure to heat up. Ayala says the need is especially great for scientists to engage religious people in dialogue. As evidence, he lugs over the 11-by-17-inch, 12-pound Atlas of Creation mailed out by Muslim creationist Adnan Oktar in Turkey to scientists and museums across the U.S. and France. This richly illustrated tome not only attacks evolution but also links Darwin’s theory to horrors, including fascism and even Satan himself.

In the U.S. the intelligent design–promoting Discovery Institute in Seattle has published biology textbooks questioning evolution and has promoted the 2008 film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed to make the case that anti-Darwinist scientists are persecuted. (For a rebuttal, see “Ben Stein’s Expelled: No Integrity Displayed,” by John Rennie, and related articles.) Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin has said she believes that creationism should be taught alongside evolution in schools. One in eight high school biology teachers already treat creationism as a valid alternative, according to a Pennsylvania State University poll.

Despite outreach efforts by scientists and constitutional rulings against them, creationists and intelligent design advocates “are not getting weaker,” Ayala says. “If anything, they’re more visible.”

But Ayala thinks that scientists who attack religion and ridicule the faithful—most notably, Richard Dawkins of the University of Oxford—are making a mistake. It is destructive and gives fodder to the preachers who insist followers must choose either Darwin or God. Often students in Ayala’s introductory biology class tell him that they will answer test questions as he wishes, but in truth they reject evolution because of their Christian beliefs. Then, a couple of years later, when they have learned more science, they decide to abandon their religion. The two, students seem to think, are incompatible.

That saddens him, Ayala says. Instead he would like believers to reconcile their faith with science. Drawing on five years of study in preparation for ordination as a Dominican priest, Ayala uses evolution to help answer a central paradox of Christianity—namely, how can a loving, all-knowing God allow evil and suffering?

Nature is poorly designed—with oddities such as blind spots built into the human eye and an excess of teeth jammed into our jaws. Parasites are sadists. Predators are cruel. Natural selection can explain the ruthlessness of nature, Ayala argues, and remove the “evil”—requiring an intentional act of free will—from the living world. “Darwin solved the problem,” Ayala concludes. He refers to science-savvy Christian theologians who present a God that is continuously engaged in the creative process through undirected natural selection. By addressing religious people on their own terms, Ayala aims to offer a better answer than intelligent design or creationism.

for more click:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -evolution
Dawkins thinks belief in God is an excuse to evade thinking in the scientific world. Sadly, he is ignorant to the list of christian scientists who have contributed & founded many of the sciences he himself believes in. How ironic.
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Postby sheye » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:56 am

awesome post smokinjoe......I will have to get to the link later..

but the post was a wealth of info ,in of itself..

Thankyou
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Postby orangetom1999 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:02 am

There is a belief among many out here of logic and reason..sophism if you like..logic ..gnostic thinking.

This belief or belief system often attempts to promote science as being something very seperate from religion...or even superior to religion. There is a undertone that science is the new religion in which to believe. The new belief system...far superior to any religion...Science is therefore the new template ..the new paradigm/religion in which to believe.

Let me say this concering such concepts.


You have to go to school to get this naturally stupid. Thinking people on their own merits are not this naturally stupid.

Only public schools combined with mans natural ignorance of many things about himself and the nature around us can dumb a people down so far and naturally.

Science has put us in better clothes...better cars..homes ...yada yada yada...et al..but it has totally failed to make us better peoples.
You have to go to school and be educated to not see this as well.

When you go back in history...to all these totalitarian governments..particularly in the twentieth century ..up to today..you learn one thing quickly if you can think outside the box of what passes for intelligent in many of the posts on boards like this one and others....these tyrannical governments believed and invested heavily in the science of the day...all across the scientific spectrum.

Think this through carefully if you think science is capable of handling the new moralty..the new man...the world.

If you dont get it ...you are out to lunch..the lights are on and no one is home. Translation..you went to public school and got educated on the government breast...and dont know the difference.

There is a devout belief system in play here ..a religion if you like...and often supported by the new religion of science.

That man ..on his own merits...is made of good stuff...the material of which he is made is good and by education he can better himself...into the "upward reach of Mankind."

That man by an act of will..through education,conditioning ..by man made diciplines...can become better and better and better. If you read closely some of this material...what they are describing is man as a demigod. That man on his own merits can reach divinity..save himself and others. They are creating their own god...and religion..in this case..science.

This is often and subtily promoted to a gullible public in radio, music, television, and movies with lots of high tech to make it look scientific. All the flash and bling of psuedo science and philosophy. But it is in actuallity...occult seduction, deception, a counterfeit.

The other belief system..says that man is dead...worthless in tresspasses and sins and cannot reach divinity or save himself or anyone else because the material of which he is made is lousy material..insufficient, lacking. And therefore man on his own merits cannot reach to God. That man's natural tendency over and over is to do evil continuously.
That man.. to be worthwhile...must have a God who chooses him ..reaches into him and makes the changes necessary to bring man to God..and Gods ways...and Gods understanding. Chosen people do not choose..they are chosen by God and God makes them in His image...and for His purposes. Including the scientists He chooses.

When you look at the history of the world...including the time of science and all of science's "greatness" Which of these two religions do you see dominantly in place and what is the fruit produced by these two different systems.
Under which of these two religious systems do you see most of the history of men written??
To which system is someone obviously attempting to return us today while using/misusing science to facillitate this return??

By their fruit you will know them. Learn to think outside the box....learn to become a fruit inspector.

By the way..be very very careful of logic, reason, sophism, and gnosticism. For these are hallmarks, or indexes, fingerprints of the occult religions....including much of science if you do not know how it is done.

Be very careful of what passes for logic and reason.

Do not misunderstand me here. I am not against science. I just know that science is a lousy, dead, inert religion....along with a lousy system of morality. Science is only capable of making men better consumers and not better men.
I also know that science is mostly paid for and financed by government ...and also that government already has a religion in play..and it is an occult religion...hidden, concealed, esoteric...from the profane that government intends to control..including the control of science.
Once again..you have to go to school to be so stupid you do not see this right in front of you.

Learn to inspect the fruit...become a fruit inspector. Think outside the box.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Post Script,

I just read and posted on Sandra's post about the Chief Cornerstone.

The line of thought Sandra provided caused me to come back here and add to this post.

Science is not the Chief Cornerstone of a religion. It is of insufficient material for this task.
I am glad I ran across Sandra's post. Thanks Sandra.
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Postby sheye » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:31 am

orangetomwrote:

By their fruit you will know them. Learn to think outside the box....learn to become a fruit inspector.

By the way..be very very careful of logic, reason, sophism, and gnosticism. For these are hallmarks, or indexes, fingerprints of the occult religions....including much of science if you do not know how it is done.

Be very careful of what passes for logic and reason.


but from where do I recieve the discernment required ,to understand what passes for logic and reason?
Myself?..am I to trust my poor lil pitiful human brain??

I would appreciate a reply to that question orangetom because,I type it with all sincerity..

thankyou for reading and replying.
(sheye's 777th personality) :?
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Postby sheye » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:37 am

humphreys wrote:
inja wrote:
Number 3 and 4 are correct..................imaginary or real is based on individuals perception.


Again, as with Sandra's, these kind of statements don't make a whole lot of sense.

We have a definition of "real" that we use, and in this regard, it would be something like "existing in reality, outside of the mind, in the real world". Imaginary would mean existing in the mind, and having no existence outside of it.

So, to suggest that evil and goodness are BOTH, really doesn't make sense.

How can it?


I get what you are saying but not everything in the world that we consider to be reality can be dissected with a scalpel. In what you term as the real world a good part of it is made of matter and this can be dissected, scrutinized, explained and is than presented in a rational manner in an educational forum. However a great part of "the real world" is considered reality without being dissected and is based on moral grounds such as our laws. Not God's laws or dogma but our simple everyday laws. Stopping at a stop sign, being busted for drugs or executed for murder. Those are laws based on good and bad or good and evil. Some of our laws certainly stem from our history with religious institutions never the less in a society that is based only on reality here too you will find that good and bad exists based on emotions, perceptions, morality......and that is certainly linked to our imagination or thought process. Science is really no better....a thought starts out in the mind linked to ones imagination and than is followed up with wanting to prove or disprove certain imaginary theories. Some hold up some don't of course.

In the Muslim world you get busted for stealing...chop chop off comes your hand (or it used to be that way).
In the Western world you get caught for stealing the punishment differers.
Which punishment is based more on reality of what is right or wrong...good or evil..

What is reality once you look beyond the material world? We certainly have incorporated a lot more of life that is considered reality vs imagination....but it all had to start out in the mind....the little grey area that is called imagination before it could become part of our standard reality.

And when it comes to the concept of a God existing......or good and evil....well you can take yourself as an example.

You met Mrs. Humphreys...you managed to get together.....you married.....you both produced a child. Marriage equals a piece of paper....child = swapping some bodily fluids, biology took over and viola a baby is born. The entire process can be scrutinized, categorized and explained with out any shred of doubt. Now I am going to a presume that before biology could take place some where along the line emotions on both of your sides took place and what we call attraction was the start of your story. Being attracted can of course also be explained by how our hormones are reacting to another individual.......but usually after attraction "love steps" in. Exactly how do you prove love? How do you define love? Where exactly does it come from? What is it that mrs. Humphreys has that triggered a feeling of love within you that is only dedicated to her? And visa versa.
Maybe you can beak it down in a reasonable and rational manner what the bond of love is between the both of you............and so i might have wasted my time responding to you...which is ok.


Inja,

Just had to copy and paste this one ,it was too beautiful and well written..

The amount of wisdom I see in this post..is so real and good..to me,

Absolutely beautifully expresses, the beautiful side of you...as I see it

Sorry had to say it, :oops: :? , and I would be proud to call someone that reasons like you, "my friend" :)
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Postby orangetom1999 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:20 pm

Sheye,

but from where do I recieve the discernment required ,to understand what passes for logic and reason?
Myself?..am I to trust my poor lil pitiful human brain??

I would appreciate a reply to that question orangetom because,I type it with all sincerity..


Your question Sheye is a very valid and worthy question. One worthy of careful consideration.

As I have told you ...I have been under the tutorage of elders and ministers who were blessed to know and study from the "Whole Council of God." This is a very rare thing for those in the Ministry teaching and preaching to a flock. Most flocks are not willing to learn or hear it. They would throw their Ministers out.

What one learns when one reads the Bible...His Word..is that we are not to be emotional train Wrecks in studying and obeying the Word. Biblical Love is not human love. Biblical love is obedience to God and His Word. How God commands and instructs us to live with each other and Himself in an increasingly unfriendly world.

So many churches out here are teaching the feel good...pretty type of religion which bears little resemblance to what is in the Word. It is just designed to make on feel good about themselves. It is sugar...not Salt. We are the Salt of the Earth ..not the sugar. This is not to say that we are not to be meek and mild..indeed we are to be just so.
But when confronted by the drivel of this world..we are to be tooled and equipped...knowledgable enough to pour out Salt on these slugs. And we know what happens to slugs when we pour Salt onto them. We do not do this in our vanity or for our purposes. We must be properly girded in the armour of the Word.

This is why the Whole Council of God is important. Most Christians never come into contact with this concept. Most ministers will not teach this because if they did ..the congregation would find out that they are teaching Pharisee doctrine ..not God's doctrine. Counterfeit doctrine.

This is built up over time..line upon line...precept upon precept...until you begin to look at verses..and suddenly one day..see them in a different Light. "I never saw..that before..and I've read that verse a hundred time and never thought it meant that??!!" You see Sheye??

There is no such instruction in the Bible/Word to know God by being an emotional trainwreck.
Living for ones emotional satisfaction. Feel goodism.

When you begin to understand this..in the seat of the emotions..you learn to dicipline your emotions and think a thing through.
I can read the posts of Athiests and unbelievers and see almost immediately what their religion is...the religion of the self. This is translated in Biblical parlayance as " I will be like the most high." " I am and there is none else besides me."
You can see it clearly in many of their posts. They cannot get away from it.
There is in their posts a distinct line with the flesh manifested in a textbook lack of humility.
When you come to understand this fingerprint you will see it often around you. On television, in movies, amongst your peers.

Most of the time I let it go..but on occasion I let them know that they are slugs and that I know how to use Salt.

By the way Sheye..notice this Salt has a capital S in it.?? This is not my Salt but His...understand now??

Hope this helps. This is a long and difficult road to walk. Very narrow.

In His Name,
Orangetom
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