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Religion.

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby chiselray » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:50 am

um...well after all the most prolific posters in here are usually the atheist types..

That is why i question their motives..Why would they bother ,i dont think it is to learn anything as you have suggested..thats laughable..They have no interest in a view that doesnt make any sense to them..
I mean what have you got from posting in here all these years ? apart from trying to tear ones faith to pieces.. :?:
Has it gotten you any closer to god humph ?
Has it given you any more proof he exists,because i do recall you saying you cannot prove it anyway..its impossible ..
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Postby mrshumphreys » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:36 am

Oddly enough, I have to agree with greeney about war.
Sure, lots of people have died in religious wars, or in the name of some religion or another, but it seems to me that humans will find something to have wars about, regardless of religious differences or similarities. One's beliefs are just a convenient excuse, as far as I can tell.

As for Tairaa's intentions in starting the thread, I think he made it very clear. He is not a believer, but is interested in discussion with people of different beliefs whom he knows enough about (and who know enough about him) to keep things civil and (hopefully) get somewhere instead of things degenerating into the usual arguing and name calling.
"It's like arguing with a brick wall, except the brick wall thinks you're an idiot, and thinks it's winning." - Humphreys, that sexy beast.

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Postby humphreys » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:57 am

chiselray wrote:um...well after all the most prolific posters in here are usually the atheist types..


Um...no, I don't think the majority of posters here are atheists at all. In fact, I'll bet believers in a God or creator of some kind outnumber atheists.

Off the top of my head I can think of:

Greeney2, screamzero, Item7, you, Sandra, Sheye, Halfabo, Frrostedman, Malai, and I'm sure I have forgotten a few.

chiselray wrote:That is why i question their motives..Why would they bother ,i dont think it is to learn anything as you have suggested..thats laughable..They have no interest in a view that doesnt make any sense to them..


I can think of a dozen reasons why they would bother.

That's like saying why would anyone go to the war and terrorism forum and argue against the need for war.

Your claim that the vew of believers makes "no sense" to atheists is completely untrue, and your claim that atheists don't want to learn anything is ever farther from the truth.

chiselray wrote:I mean what have you got from posting in here all these years ? apart from trying to tear ones faith to pieces.. :?:


I sincerely doubt I have torn anyone's faith to pieces whatsoever, seeing as I'm am argiung from a position of logic, and faith is a suspension of logic, to believe in what cannot be logically or scientifically proved.

What I have got is a wealth of knowledge on how and why people believe the things they do, how they reason, how they see people of other beliefs (often completely inaccurate views, just as yours seems to be of atheists), and completely new ways of seeing things (although, ways I still do not at all agree with).

In short, I have gained a ton. I have also extended my knowledge immesurably by being forced to justify my own beliefs, and to do the research needed to prove my position, in subjects like evolution, and physics.

Need I go on?

chiselray wrote:Has it gotten you any closer to god humph ?
Has it given you any more proof he exists,because i do recall you saying you cannot prove it anyway..its impossible ..


I certainly did not say God could not be proved in theory, if he existed, I said the concept of a creator could not be DISPROVED, whether he existed or not. Very different things.

Of course it has not gotten me closer to a God I do not believe in, and I do not expect it to, or necessarily aim for it to.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby Tairaa » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:49 pm

Woo! Forgot about this thread! :D

Religious wars...

Heres the hard part, because the population of the planet obviously isn't steady is it? So I mean, speaking in terms of pure numbers PERHAPS less then 50% of war fatalities have not been due to religion, if it is statistically figured out with the relativity of the earths population at the time of said war I bet you the numbers are a bit more leaning towards 50 or more.

So perhaps we're coming out of the trend of blindly killing on another because a "god" that we can't see, hear from, interact with in any way etc told us too.

Historically religion has been the single greatest key to oppression of other peoples, and remains a frequently used tool today, along with racism.

Look at the Israel-Palestine conflict, if they were both the same skin colour and religion I gaurantee that war wouldn't be going on. Now, of course, the argument can be made that some of the worst mass-murderers in history were athiests as well. Such as Pol Pot, and Stalin. But had these individuals been athiests and born 2000 years ago the carnage they could have wrought would have been less due to the lack of population.

Therefore I think relativity in this matter is of most importance, because that wouldn't have made them any worse as people, it would have simply limited the number of people they could have killed.


Even Buddhism and Hinduism produced -either historically or in modern days- extremists and warriors, so even in religions which very strickly say violence will bring you no prosperity religion can be used as a means to hate others.
But I blame this on how peoples minds work, it seems that we try and find things about people that are different from us, and we tend to use these differences to justify a predisposition towards these people. Many people do feel justified in saying things like that we should simply go in and kill everyone in the middle east because there are terrorists living there. They feel that this wouldn't be morally incorrect. That's even without religion.

The problem I have with organized religion is that the people in power have traditionally used it, not just the catholic religion but most others as well, as a way to gain power, wealth, and the influence politics and what people think. Crusades being a PRIME example. But really any incident that's similar will do, like Saddam gassing the Kurds for instance.
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Postby Tairaa » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:58 pm

chiselray wrote:um...well after all the most prolific posters in here are usually the atheist types..

That is why i question their motives..Why would they bother ,i dont think it is to learn anything as you have suggested..thats laughable..They have no interest in a view that doesnt make any sense to them..
I mean what have you got from posting in here all these years ? apart from trying to tear ones faith to pieces.. :?:
Has it gotten you any closer to god humph ?
Has it given you any more proof he exists,because i do recall you saying you cannot prove it anyway..its impossible ..


They have no interest in a view that doesnt make any sense to them..

I have an interest in understanding a viewpoint that doesn't make sense to me.

But mostly my reasons for posting are mostly E) and G).
g) General enjoyment of the subject matter at hand

e) Wanting to understand the way other people think, and reason, and why


A is obvious, no one is sure about their beliefs, no matter how sure they think they are.

I mean, one can definitely be sure that they do believe, but by definition they can't be sure about their beliefs.
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Postby chiselray » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:48 pm

humphreys wrote:
chiselray wrote:um...well after all the most prolific posters in here are usually the atheist types..


Um...no, I don't think the majority of posters here are atheists at all. In fact, I'll bet believers in a God or creator of some kind outnumber atheists.

Off the top of my head I can think of:

Greeney2, screamzero, Item7, you, Sandra, Sheye, Halfabo, Frrostedman, Malai, and I'm sure I have forgotten a few.

chiselray wrote:That is why i question their motives..Why would they bother ,i dont think it is to learn anything as you have suggested..thats laughable..They have no interest in a view that doesnt make any sense to them..


I can think of a dozen reasons why they would bother.

That's like saying why would anyone go to the war and terrorism forum and argue against the need for war.

Your claim that the vew of believers makes "no sense" to atheists is completely untrue, and your claim that atheists don't want to learn anything is ever farther from the truth.

chiselray wrote:I mean what have you got from posting in here all these years ? apart from trying to tear ones faith to pieces.. :?:


I sincerely doubt I have torn anyone's faith to pieces whatsoever, seeing as I'm am argiung from a position of logic, and faith is a suspension of logic, to believe in what cannot be logically or scientifically proved.

What I have got is a wealth of knowledge on how and why people believe the things they do, how they reason, how they see people of other beliefs (often completely inaccurate views, just as yours seems to be of atheists), and completely new ways of seeing things (although, ways I still do not at all agree with).

In short, I have gained a ton. I have also extended my knowledge immesurably by being forced to justify my own beliefs, and to do the research needed to prove my position, in subjects like evolution, and physics.

Need I go on?

chiselray wrote:Has it gotten you any closer to god humph ?
Has it given you any more proof he exists,because i do recall you saying you cannot prove it anyway..its impossible ..


I certainly did not say God could not be proved in theory, if he existed, I said the concept of a creator could not be DISPROVED, whether he existed or not. Very different things.

Of course it has not gotten me closer to a God I do not believe in, and I do not expect it to, or necessarily aim for it to.


Do i believe any of what you just defended your critical post history in these forums on ? absolutely not.Its easy enough to just throw together a few excuses,but thats all they are really.
You can sit there humphreys and think up all kinds of answers or reasons you criticize religious beliefs but they are in vain ,you do post to get a kick out of pelting ideas of where you dont have any interest in to begin with..I cant believe you sit there and type with little regard and dignity for yourself instead of just admitting you enjoy taking the piss..


In short, I have gained a ton. I have also extended my knowledge immesurably by being forced to justify my own beliefs, and to do the research needed to prove my position, in subjects like evolution, and physics.


And science hasnt done that for you ? ok but you thought a few nutters on the blackvault just might sway your ideas.. Sure thing... ;)
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Postby chiselray » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:56 pm

Um...no, I don't think the majority of posters here are atheists at all. In fact, I'll bet believers in a God or creator of some kind outnumber atheists.

Off the top of my head I can think of:

Greeney2, screamzero, Item7, you, Sandra, Sheye, Halfabo, Frrostedman, Malai, and I'm sure I have forgotten a few.


me huh ? ok..

that makes 9,a whole 9 woOOt
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Postby humphreys » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:02 pm

chiselray wrote:
Um...no, I don't think the majority of posters here are atheists at all. In fact, I'll bet believers in a God or creator of some kind outnumber atheists.

Off the top of my head I can think of:

Greeney2, screamzero, Item7, you, Sandra, Sheye, Halfabo, Frrostedman, Malai, and I'm sure I have forgotten a few.


me huh ? ok..

that makes 9,a whole 9 woOOt


Name more than 9 atheists who still post in this forum and I'll concede.
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Postby humphreys » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:06 pm

chiselray wrote:Do i believe any of what you just defended your critical post history in these forums on ? absolutely not.Its easy enough to just throw together a few excuses,but thats all they are really.
You can sit there humphreys and think up all kinds of answers or reasons you criticize religious beliefs but they are in vain ,you do post to get a kick out of pelting ideas of where you dont have any interest in to begin with..I cant believe you sit there and type with little regard and dignity for yourself instead of just admitting you enjoy taking the piss..


As I said to Sandra before, the moment someone else tries to tell me exactly what I'm thinking why, and states my motives for doing something with confidence, is when I end the discussion.

You asked me why I did something, then rejected my explanation. What more is there to say?

chiselray wrote:
In short, I have gained a ton. I have also extended my knowledge immesurably by being forced to justify my own beliefs, and to do the research needed to prove my position, in subjects like evolution, and physics.


And science hasnt done that for you ? ok but you thought a few nutters on the blackvault just might sway your ideas.. Sure thing... ;)


No I did not think anyone here would sway my ideas, where did I say that? I said they forced me to improve my knowledge on certain subjects so that I could defend my position fully and with confidence.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

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Postby chiselray » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:34 pm

humphreys wrote:As I said to Sandra before, the moment someone else tries to tell me exactly what I'm thinking why, and states my motives for doing something with confidence, is when I end the discussion.

You asked me why I did something, then rejected my explanation. What more is there to say?

Maybe, be honest ,gee i dunno...

In short, I have gained a ton. I have also extended my knowledge immesurably by being forced to justify my own beliefs, and to do the research needed to prove my position, in subjects like evolution, and physics.


to prove evolution and physics you dont need religion ,it kind of stand in the way ,its bs remember ?

No I did not think anyone here would sway my ideas, where did I say that? I said they forced me to improve my knowledge on certain subjects so that I could defend my position fully and with confidence.


Where,you already said that before,when simply you proposed no one can prove god,and then claiming you do not believe in a god..Fact of proof is exactly on your terms things you cant see or prove are not really there..Religion is a fantasy,want me to dig some posts up ? i could but why bother..
No one will persuade you and they are not able to and you already know this, so this is why i dont believe there is integrity in your reply.
If you wanted to see just why people think as they do then fine,you did read what their ideas were over the years,why they had faith ,why they believe in a creator yet you still mocked them..you cant deny this..i think that part of it is the only reason why i am interested in your replies.
Obviously..however being the case as it is that is your call to defuse someones faith for simply a bit of a kick ,at least sometimes..lets be honest..
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