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Remember that 650,000 dead in Iraq debate?

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Postby greeney2 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:49 am

We all went round and round over that projection, and the wild numbers that were circulated about 500,000 dead from sanctions, depleted uranium, and the Bush invasion of Iraq. This gives a totally different number, and if you remember the 650,000 study, it was all from a projection of only a few hundred known deaths multiplied by the population. This covers 2004-08 and does not include the 2003 invsion period, or the last nearly 2 year period contaning countless insurgent bombings.


Government says 85,000 Iraqis killed in 2004-08
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Slideshow:Iraq Play Video Video:Three blasts rock western Iraq Reuters Play Video Iraq Video:UK boosts Afghan troop contingent Reuters AP – Iraqi security forces inspect a damaged car after a car bomb attack in Ramadi, 115 kilometers (70 miles) … By SINAN SALAHEDDIN, Associated Press Writer Sinan Salaheddin, Associated Press Writer – 46 mins ago
BAGHDAD – At least 85,000 Iraqis lost their lives from 2004-2008 in violence, the government said in its first comprehensive tally released since the war began.

The report by the Human Rights Ministry said 85,694 people were killed in the four-year period and 147,195 were wounded. It counted Iraqi civilians, military and police but did not cover U.S. military deaths, insurgents, or foreigners, including contractors or U.S. forces. And it did not include the first months of the war after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

The Associated Press reported in April that the government had recorded 87,215 Iraqi deaths from 2005 to February 2009, a toll very similar to the latest release. It was based on government statistics obtained by the AP and covered violence ranging from catastrophic bombings to execution-style slayings.

Until the AP report, the government's toll of Iraqi deaths had been one of the most closely guarded secrets of the war. It has been hotly disputed because of the high political stakes in a war opposed by many countries and by a large portion of the American public. Critics on each side accuse the other of manipulating the toll to sway public opinion.

The ministry's report came out late Tuesday as part of a larger study on human rights in the country. It described the years that followed the invasion, which toppled Saddam Hussein's regime, as extremely violent.

"Through the terrorist attacks like explosions, assassinations, kidnappings and forced displacements, the outlawed groups have created these terrible figures which represent a big challenge for the rule of law and for the Iraqi people," it said.

Violence has declined dramatically since the worst years, but almost every person in Iraq has been touched by the violence. Insurgents continue to target civilians, especially Shiites and their shrines.

Iraq's death toll continued to climb on Wednesday when three near simultaneous blasts struck the southern Shiite holy city of Karbala. At least six people were killed, Iraqi police and medical officials said.

The ministry's report said 1,279 children and 2,334 women were killed in the four-year period covered. It said 263 university professors, 21 judges, 95 lawyers and 269 journalists were killed, singling out some of the professions which were specifically targeted as the country descended into chaos.

The toll also included 15,000 unidentified bodies not claimed by families and buried in special cemeteries.

As Iraq became increasingly violent following the 2003 invasion, it also became increasingly difficult to independently track death figures.

Statistics from the initial months of the war have been extremely difficult to obtain as there was no functioning Iraqi government during that time and the interim government was not seated until mid-2004. The difficulties of quantifying the loss were compounded by the fact that records were not always compiled centrally, and the brutal insurgency sharply limited on-the-scene reporting. The U.S. military never shared its data.

The number obtained by the AP was a minimum count of violent deaths. The official who provided the data to the AP estimated the actual number of deaths was 10 to 20 percent higher because thousands are still missing and civilians were buried in the chaos of war without official records.

Combined with tallies based on hospital sources and media reports since the beginning of the war and an in-depth review of available evidence by the AP, the figures showed that more than 110,600 Iraqis had died in violence since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion and up through early 2009.

The most recent numbers from Iraq Body Count, a private London-based group that has tracked civilian casualties since the war began, puts the number of civilian casualties as of Oct. 14 at 93,540.

The toll released Tuesday was based on death certificates issued by the Health Ministry, which has tallied them since 2005. The tolls measure only violent deaths — people killed in attacks such as the shootings, bombings, mortar attacks and beheadings that have ravaged Iraq. They exclude indirect factors such as damage to infrastructure, health care and stress that caused thousands more to die.

Some experts favor cluster surveys, in which conclusions are drawn from a select sampling of households. The largest cluster survey in Iraq was conducted in 2007 by the World Health Organization and the Iraqi government. It concluded that about 151,000 Iraqis had died from violence in the 2003-05 period, but that included insurgents.

A more controversial cluster study conducted between May and July 2006 by Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and Al-Mustansiriya University in Baghdad, published in the Lancet medical journal, estimated that 601,027 Iraqis had died due to violence. The authors said roughly 50,000 more died from nonviolent causes such as heart disease and cancer because of deteriorating health conditions caused by the war.

Critics argue that such surveys are flawed in Iraq because the security situation prevents a proper sampling. They also have margins of error that could skew the numbers by the tens of thousands.

While the Pentagon maintains meticulous records of the number of American troops killed — at least 4,349 as of Wednesday — it does not publicly release comprehensive Iraqi casualty figures. American units around the country do compile figures, drawing them mostly from the Iraqi military. They are not released publicly but are used to determine trends.
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Postby MonarchSmile » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:43 am

Look what I found by just googleing 'refuse war'

http://www.wri-irg.org/co/icod06/index.html

whose counting?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

What if we dismantled most all of our Garrisons of the different parts of the world(corporate empire), and brought our soldiers home, to defend our shores, only. If the Corporations need
defending, should it not be their cost of doing business?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_armed_forces

forces overseas

Overseas

As of March 31, 2008, U.S. armed forces were stationed at more than 820 installations in at least 39 countries.[17] Some of the largest contingents are the 142,000 military personnel in Iraq, the 56,200 in Germany, the 33,122 in Japan, 28,500 in Republic of Korea, 31,100 in Afghanistan and approximately 9,700 each in Italy and the United Kingdom. These numbers change frequently due to the regular recall and deployment of units.

Altogether, 84,488 military personnel are located in Europe, 154 in the former Soviet Union, 70,719 in East Asia and the Pacific, 7,850 in North Africa, the Near East, and South Asia, 2,727 are in sub-Saharan Africa with 2,043 in the Western Hemisphere excepting the United States itself.

Anyway, what would all these able bodied Americans(well trained) do,on returning, since we hardly manufacture stuff here anymore, except War Material.

and we still need an accurate body count in Iraq..............

shame :cry:
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Postby Cole_Trickle » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:37 pm

It stands to reason based on the following quote alone that the numbers are NOT accurate.


The report by the Human Rights Ministry said 85,694 people were killed in the four-year period and 147,195 were wounded. It counted Iraqi civilians, military and police but did not cover U.S. military deaths, insurgents, or foreigners, including contractors or U.S. forces. And it did not include the first months of the war after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.


Reading closer helps to keep it real, as does other stories printed by reliable sources not beholden to the machine, the realm SOME desperately try to cast a bright light on, as if some glorified shining star of moral example of a decent mankind for the count being so low. :roll:

Reality: One story Reggie Lane, one of many!

Image


Reggie Lane was once a hulking man of 260 pounds. Friends called him "Big Dad." Now, he weighed less than 200 pounds and his brain was severely damaged. He groaned angry, wordless cries.

The nurse moved fast. Two bursts of deodorant spray under each useless arm. Then he dressed Lane and used a mechanical arm to hoist him into a wheelchair.

He wheeled Big Dad down a hallway and parked the chair in a beige dining room, in front of a picture window. Outside stretched a green valley of pear trees filled with white blossoms.

Lane's head fell forward, his chin buried in his chest. His legs crossed and uncrossed involuntarily. His left index finger was rigid and pointed, as if frozen in permanent accusation.


Maybe next time while on Vacation someone near the area can stop in a Pay this man a visit, take a few minutes it may very well open your eyes!

In 2004, Lane was driving a fuel truck in Iraq for a defense contractor when insurgents attacked his convoy with rocket-propelled grenades. For most of the five years since, Lane, now 60, has spent his days in silence -- a reminder of the hidden costs of relying on civilian contract workers to support the U.S. war effort.

His wife, Linda, said visiting her husband was difficult. They were childhood friends and fiercely loyal to each other. On this spring morning, she caressed his hand and told him she loved him.

"He was a good man. He paid his bills. He took care of his family," she said, her breathing labored from a pulmonary disease. "He's a human being who fought for his country. He doesn't deserve to be thrown away."


Reggie today:

Image


What's a few less lives to debate all in the name of being right or simply throwing out your chest and saying " See I told you so " Shameless. The AP is hardly a reliable source with many of their filed staff in bed with the Military Industrial complex.

Your Buddy Bush is famous for signing more " DEATH ROW " death certificates than any Governor in US history and yet He's the Most devout President EVER. Just ask him. :lol:

I say again Pathetic attempt to justify an Illegal war!

Image
Mother Dorothy Turpen (left) and caregiver Bev Glasgow sit next to Reggie Lane during a memorial service for his wife, Linda, in July 2009. Linda had been hospitalized after suffering respiratory distress. Under the shade of scrub oak and aspen, Reggie watched as Linda’s family and friends sang 'Amazing Grace' and looked at old photos of the couple. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)


http://www.propublica.org/feature/kbr-c ... uries-1006

Read the comments in the link at the end of the article: Learn from those who have been there.

Cole
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Postby inja » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:46 pm

Collateral Damage
Friendly Fire
Unaccounted American Assets
Unaccounted Assets
Campaign
Coalition of the Willing
Bouncing Betty ----------------------------that's a term I just discovered. Love it...nothing like a bouncing Betty landmine
Surgical Strike
Target Rich Environment
Daisy Cutters
Bunker Buster
Smart Weapons

Hmmmm.....yes war is good.....war is sterile....


While the Pentagon maintains meticulous records of the number of American troops killed — at least 4,349 as of Wednesday — it does not publicly release comprehensive Iraqi casualty figures. American units around the country do compile figures, drawing them mostly from the Iraqi military. They are not released publicly but are used to determine trends.



Determine trends..............isn't that a little catchy phrase...

War is good!
(end of sarcasm)
Truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense.
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Postby frrostedman » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:31 pm

See how it works, greeney?

The anti-Bush left wing gets to have their cake and eat it too. Years ago they just made up numbers out of thin air, to do a little "shock n awe" of their own in the form of "reporting."

650,000 Iraqis dead at the hand of bloodthirsty American Imperialists! Down with Bush the warmonger!


But we knew then and we certainly know now, that the numbers were false. They knew it too, but to them lying is acceptable, i.e. the end justifies the means. And now that you've gotten the real data together and have shown them for what they were and still are... and have taken the opportunity to finally prove them wrong; what did you get in response? "I'm sorry, greeney, you're right and I shouldn't have just made stuff up." No no no. What you get instead is, "How DARE you overlook the people that were injured physically, emotionally, and/or mentally! What, you don't CARE about those people?"

Forget it greeney. Those folks are never going to change and will never admit to being inaccurate in any way. If they can't fight you with facts, they can always resort to deflecting the debate away from what you want to talk about, and twist the whole thing into you being a sick, cold-blooded warmonger. Give it up. I've seen more than one person on the board talk about how boring it is without certain troublemakers around, so, that should tell you something. A lot of people aren't here to solve issues or learn, or engage in fair debate. They're here to argue, flame, and take out all their frustrations on the folks they disagree with.

Like some people I've spoken to have already concluded: With O'Bama in office, several of the troublemaking crowd drifted away... there's no purpose for them here anymore because there isn't a Conservative President to bash and play armchair quarterback with. If they were here now, they'd have some explaining to do as to how the USA is better off with a left-wing radical Marxist as a President... and though I wouldn't have believed it then--perhaps they are just smart enough to realize that position is indefensible.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby greeney2 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:52 pm

War is good!
(end of sarcasm)


You faught me tooth and nail over the 650,000 one and the debate centered on such wild numbers, just rounded off to the nearest 50,000 or so, from surveying a handful of people. It wasn't a small number that was "unclassifed" and we had quite a discussion about those, and how accurate the entire study could be at all. As you read in this artical, that study still today is not considered credible or accurate, as these numbers show from death certificates.

Sampling random surveys or actual death certificates, which will give you an ending number down to a single digit? You say we keep maticulas records of USA deaths, well Duh!!!! Every single person is accounted for, and they know the exact number of death certificates they had to make. They also know the exact number of injuries, becasue we bring every last one home.
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Postby MonarchSmile » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:16 pm

Lets cheer for the lowered death count.
Very Ugly.......very inappropriate
Two Iraqi holocaust deniers.........
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Postby Cole_Trickle » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:26 pm

There are sites that have photos of what war in IRAQ is all about. Shall I post some photos for you zealots to gaze at, or have you had you supper yet?

This isn't a PHUCKING POLITICAL " GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARD " This is about " HUMAN BEINGS Getting their freaking arms and legs blown off for
LIES. Lies put forth but the BUSH FAMILY.

Now you wanna get phucking serious about this or act like you're ten feet tall and bullet proof as you type with one finger???????????? :twisted:

God I'm embarrassed for even engaging such STUPIDITY!

Get A life!

Cole
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Postby MonarchSmile » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:39 pm

Cole_Trickle wrote:There are sites that have photos of what war in IRAQ is all about. Shall I post some photos for you zealots to gaze at, or have you had you supper yet?

This isn't a PHUCKING POLITICAL " GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARD " This is about " HUMAN BEINGS Getting their freaking arms and legs blown off for
LIES. Lies put forth but the BUSH FAMILY.

Now you wanna get phucking serious about this or act like you're ten feet tall and bullet proof as you type with one finger???????????? :twisted:

God I'm embarrassed for even engaging such STUPIDITY!

Get A life!

Cole


You know the Bush family are the toadys for this...
If it were not for the Walkers(St.Louis) and others.
Even Lincoln was aware of the problem :!:
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Postby frrostedman » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:00 pm

Yep Greeney, same ol bs.

All you did was point out that the radicals were making up numbers. What'd you get in return? You are pro-war, a holocaust denier, and basically a real slimeball of a human being.

Expect more of the same any time you point out the slightest inaccuracy in their arguments. By the end of this thready you'll probably be branded a Hitler supporter and an anti-Obama racist thug, too.

Stay tuned, if you want. I certainly won't.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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