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9-11 Questions and Delayed Death Toll

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Postby vulcan6gun » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:03 pm

Wyatt the Narcotics Officer, my *ss.

Oops, back on subject: The World Trade Centers were demolished by two airplanes that were driven into them by Al-Qaeda operatives and the ensuing fires they caused. Reference: The 9/11 Committee Report and scads of eyewitnesses in New York City that saw it happen.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:03 pm

Inja, you are one of the most credible of people when you say you will look things up I know you do. You can bet the buildings were all loaded with Asbestos plus who knows how many other things in the dust debris. Talking just about asbestos, I worked with a man who was exposed to asbestos in the Naval shipyards when he was young, welding in confined spaces using asbestos heat blankets They are use to shield things and also to put against hot welds to make the cool off longer, so they slow cool and don;t crack welds. It took a very long time for him to develope lung cancer that is specifically identified as asbestosis, and caused by it. He did pass away from it, and the end was not anything I would wish on my worst enemy. Sudden and uncontrolable hemoraging, his poor wife watched it all, and nothing she could do for him. He was 77 at the time, and his exposures were 50 years earlier. He was in the midsts of a trial for his exposure that is ongoing for thousands of people against the manufacturers of asbestos materials. I was contacted by the same people as I had exposures in the Motorcycle business with brake materials.

Long Story short is, these kind of exposures do not have to be massive, they can be minor exposures. The WTC caused many many resperatory diseases already and its only 8 years ago. The big defence used is the fact that if you are a smoker your odds increase 50 times greater that the asbestos will develope into cancer. Smoking is a huge factor in the risk of developing the disease. I'm sure that the other particals of harmful things other than asbestos in all the WTC dust, will also have the same delemia, that smokers are at risk up to 50 times greater than non-smokers. Its also a defence the companies use to say, how do we know your problem isn;t from smoking and nothing else?

I beleive my weld engineers wife ended up with a settlement from Len's death, but thats what they all count on. "Dead men tell no tales", in these kind of lawsuits and time is on their side, to delay and get continuances, stall, than go thru the same process over and over on appeals if they lose. They know in time, the Plaintiff is going to die. If you ever see a dime, what shape will you be in, so they know you will settle for 2 reasons. First, to have something for your spouse to life on, and second, to just die in peace.
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Postby inja » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:05 pm

You got my curiosity roused so i did some googling and found that....


More than 800 World Trade Center rescue and recovery workers have died since 9/11 -- and cancer has killed at least 270 of those heroes, new data show.

The figures also show that 33 WTC responders committed suicide.

State researchers have tallied 817 deaths of workers and volunteers who toiled at toxic Ground Zero or the Fresh Kills landfill, where rubble was sifted.

The number of deaths documented has soared since last September, when researchers listed 664 fatalities and confirmed 224, including 94 cancer cases.

Cancers killing the most WTC workers include those of the stomach, colon, liver and other digestive organs (80), lung and throat (69), and blood cells, such as leukemia (37).

*About 50,000 firefighters, cops, EMTs, other workers and volunteers joined in the 9/11 rescue and recovery.

I just pulled the figures from this article you can read the rest here.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/regional/toll_still_climbing_for_heroes_OB99nMJ8JIitcAhMF6AZ7M


So I found that there was 200,000 pounds of asbestos, 400,000 pounds of lead, 424,000 tons of concrete, large amount of mercury and other substances released into the air.....not to mention that this didn't all simply drift down straight to the ground like the towers did.....the aerial photos show this toxic cloud going down wind. How many lives might be effected outside of ground zero, Manhattan etc.

Give it a few more years and the numbers will continue to climb however we will never know what the death toll for 9/11 really will be.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:07 pm

Valcan, You hit the nail right on the head when it comes to the 4 catagories. I might add one more, which is the delusions of gander many people have about their own importance to have "solved the big one", and be the biggest fish in the little pond of message boards, knowing and being totally sure.
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Postby inja » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:12 pm

greeney2 wrote:Inja, you are one of the most credible of people when you say you will look things up I know you do. You can bet the buildings were all loaded with Asbestos plus who knows how many other things in the dust debris. Talking just about asbestos, I worked with a man who was exposed to asbestos in the Naval shipyards when he was young, welding in confined spaces using asbestos heat blankets They are use to shield things and also to put against hot welds to make the cool off longer, so they slow cool and don;t crack welds. It took a very long time for him to develope lung cancer that is specifically identified as asbestosis, and caused by it. He did pass away from it, and the end was not anything I would wish on my worst enemy. Sudden and uncontrolable hemoraging, his poor wife watched it all, and nothing she could do for him. He was 77 at the time, and his exposures were 50 years earlier. He was in the midsts of a trial for his exposure that is ongoing for thousands of people against the manufacturers of asbestos materials. I was contacted by the same people as I had exposures in the Motorcycle business with brake materials.

Long Story short is, these kind of exposures do not have to be massive, they can be minor exposures. The WTC caused many many resperatory diseases already and its only 8 years ago. The big defence used is the fact that if you are a smoker your odds increase 50 times greater that the asbestos will develope into cancer. Smoking is a huge factor in the risk of developing the disease. I'm sure that the other particals of harmful things other than asbestos in all the WTC dust, will also have the same delemia, that smokers are at risk up to 50 times greater than non-smokers. Its also a defence the companies use to say, how do we know your problem isn;t from smoking and nothing else?

I beleive my weld engineers wife ended up with a settlement from Len's death, but thats what they all count on. "Dead men tell no tales", in these kind of lawsuits and time is on their side, to delay and get continuances, stall, than go thru the same process over and over on appeals if they lose. They know in time, the Plaintiff is going to die. If you ever see a dime, what shape will you be in, so they know you will settle for 2 reasons. First, to have something for your spouse to life on, and second, to just die in peace.


Thanks greeney. I knew a guy some years ago who removed asbestos from buildings and he did it with the full knowledge that he would not ripen to an old retired age. It paid good is what he used to say. I haven't seen him in several years so i don't know what ever happened to him.

The one thing I have noticed regarding those who have ailments from ground zero is that they all have the one common theme in their lives.....which was being part of the ground zero rescue and clean up crew. And believe it or not it is still being fought over whether they contracted their illness because of that toxic cloud. Some of the reports I read state it is only a matter of time before this will finally be accepted. By than though the death toll will be higher.

Not that money can cure everything...but it is a shame that the importance of money out weighs the need for medical treatment/benefits for those who we call "heroes".
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:37 pm

So I found that there was 200,000 pounds of asbestos, 400,000 pounds of lead, 424,000 tons of concrete, large amount of mercury and other substances released into the air.....not to mention that this didn't all simply drift down straight to the ground like the towers did.....the aerial photos show this toxic cloud going down wind. How many lives might be effected outside of ground zero, Manhattan etc.


Breaking this down, concrete is normally 3 parts sand, 2 parts rock and 1 part cement. I am only guessing but the quarry that these things come from may have totally different chemical breakdown in themselves according to regions in the country or world. Sand and rock used in the Northeast, may contain things not present in the southwest forinstance, like higher levels of some things mixed in the sand. Another factor is the use of quick hardeners and other plastic cements with portland cement. Also when I built a shower in my home, water wasn;t used to mix the shower motar, you used a systheic mix that made the mortar 4 times stonger. All those ingrediants reduced to dust probably have some nasty cancer causing things. Just like the cottage cheese ceilings, they are harmless as long as they are sealed. But when they crumble and turn to dust, they are dangerous particals.

Steam heating pipes, and venting pipes, coatings of the beams, any burn proofing drywall all contains asbestos, or is a packing of asbestos.

Cast iron drains used to have joints fille with lead, but not sure when they stopped that practice. I can't imagine how many miles of copper plumbing was in that building, all soldered with lead based solder. Now they use leadfree solders, but probably not in the 70's. One problem I have with the data is all the sourses of asbestos could be reduced to dust, but all the sourses of lead would mostly be in pipes and joints, that probably would not reduce to dust or particals. Lead based paint is probably a big sourse of lead, which would all reduce to dust and particals as everything painted disintigrated. Just took me 12 gallons to paint my house outside, imagine now many gallons are in the WTC? Another thing I;m not sure of is the treatment and composition of the glass. Solar coating to the glass? Add it all togather, and its one big cocktail of cancerous dust/ chemicals/ or colletive elements. The body can get away with trace amounts of it, but not injested through everything between your eyeballs to you toenails the way the workers were exposed at WTC. Last but not least is the exposure to dead rotting bodies, which is a rather delicate subject, but a real issue when rescue turns to recovery.
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Postby AlphaOmega » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:08 am

Thank you Greeney2 and Inja for your continuing input on this issue.

I am still wading through the information you referred me to Inja, so at present I shall not comment as of yet until I have read it all.

I note in your discussion with Greeney2 that some other issues have arisen particularly about asbestos exposure and the effects of smoking increasing the risk etc. Which got me to thinking when the question was posed to the effect of; how do we know it was asbestos that killed people?

So I looked up Asbestosis through Google and that led me to Mesothelioma. Among the websites this one came up, from what I gather Mesothelioma is directly attributed to exposure to asbestos:

http://www.virtualmedicalcentre.com/dis ... =1#What_is

Excerpt from the above website:

Who gets Malignant Mesothelioma of the Pleura?

Malignant mesothelioma is relatively uncommon compared to other tumours. Australia has the highest incidence of mesothelioma in the world, at 40 cases per million people. Other industrialised countries which have mined and used asbestos, such as the United States, England, Canada and South Africa, have similar but slightly lower rates of disease.

The incidence of mesothelioma increases with age, with most patients presenting between 50 and 80 years of age. This is because there is a latency period of as long as 50 years between exposure to asbestos and development of mesothelioma. Mesothelioma is far more common in men than in women, at a ratio of 4:1.

Based on what Inja and Greeney2 have been discussing in this thread so far, is that the true death toll of 9-11 will never truly be known and I sadly agree.

I would therefore also go so far as to say that from a Health Care point of view many people will not be able to be afforded proper medical care and compensation of offset the financial burdens given the state of American health Care System.

It is indeed correct to say "Not that money can cure everything...but it is a shame that the importance of money out weighs the need for medical treatment/benefits for those who we call "heroes"." as Inja so eloquently stated.

The VIDEO:

The video from U-tube bothers me still however, it is clear to me that the 9-11 Commission Report is flawed to the point of inaccuracy, whether this was intentional or not is not for me to say but clearly given the "Extreme heat" conditions in the towers as claimed in the Official Report of the 911 Commission it would be impossible for the woman to be alive given her position in the building in addition to be standing there waving for help for the last hour of her life before plummeting to her death just prior to the collapse of the building, which is in direct conflict with the Official findings.

This is a prime example of the anomalies I have stated which exist with 9-11 and the Official Reports and there I believe are dozens from government agencies in existence.

Given the amount the progression of time, one would in my view reasonably view that such anomalies would have been addressed by now, yet they persist which I believe plays directly into the hands of Conspiracy Theorists at large and as such, has a double negative effect leading people to understand and be more likely to support the arguments of the Conspiracy Theorists that there is a cover-up or indeed a conspiracy.

Sure, there are a series of strange co-incidences which occurred up to and including 9-11 but I believe them to be just that..it does not in any way suggest a conspiracy.


As an example:

A lot has been made of Operation Northwoods as being the indelible link to the conspiracy theories and the events of 9-11 but Northwoods was a Disaster Response exercise, a contingency plan to determine response times and manpower etc. etc.

Having been in the field of Law Enforcement I know personally that cities and towns all over the world have Disaster Plans in place and Operations such as Northwoods not only exist but are often tested from time to time to update the required plan of response by authorities due to changes in town planning, population growth and expansion of the city/town etc etc.

I also remember reading that in the 1930's a small aircraft crashed into the Empire State building, now at that time I would reasonably deduct that no contingency plan was in place prior to the event as it was most likely inconceivable that such a thing would happen but I would go so far as to say, that the day after the Mayor of NYC would have got the ball rolling on something like Northwoods. Apologies I digress.

With regard to the video and it's obvious conflict with the 911 commission reports the only way to get the truth is for a scientific explanation..which is neither available or possible. Therefore the 911 Commissions Report is CLEARLY incorrect and therefore incomplete.

I believe that a second commission should therefore be held if only for the purpose to answer the anomalies of 9-11 which in my view clearly exists to this day using scientific and forensic supporting evidence so that a new and completely accurate report is authored. Unhindered by political pressures or influences from either political party to rush the report which is what in my view has apparently occurred with the 9-11 Commission leading to the omission of key and relevant evidence.

It is also clear to me that in the years since that day more and more anomalies have been discovered, largely as a result of people who have been unsatisfied with the "Official Line" and as a direct result of the FOI Act and the investigation of Conspiracy Theorists and people who like me want a better more scientific explanation.

Unfortunately however, people such as myself get thrown into the Conspiracy Theorists pigeon hole all too easily by people who either are oblivious to outstanding un-investigated information or new information that is now at hand which warrants further investigation or explanation.

In closing, I note that many an innocent man has been convicted and faced the death penalty who were saved at the eleventh hour when overlooked and new information came to hand re-opened their case only to set them free.

The case of the 2472 Murders which occurred on 9-11 is in my books far form closed and shall remain so until the complete and accurate information which is disclosed fully to the world and the perpetrators face justice in a court of law.
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:31 am

I know everyone here knows and remembers Steve McQueen. Soemthing most people may not know about Steve McQueen is that he was an avid offroad enthusiast. In the same period of time I also was racing motorcycles in California desert races, not with McQueen but in the same district 37 desert racing areas. McQueen also raced and road cars and bikes, in Baja. I've always had some concerns becasue McQueen died of Throat cancer, they think may have come from the dust exposures of all his off road riding, in particular exposures to the dust of green rock areas, that are high in natural asbestos. He also had some exposures while in the Navy I beleive. I also believe McQueen was a smoker which multiplies your risk 50 times.

However, there are natural exposures to asbestos like his. If you have ever riden in some of the desert areas of California or Baja, there are places where the dust is a talc like consistancy, and when you ride through it, its usually brake hub deep, 12" or more, and just splashes from the front wheel over you like you ran into a lake. You eat so much dirt and dust. The consistancy in one of my races was so bad, it clogged my air filter, and bound up my chain. I had to clean it all with gasoline from my tank while dozens of others were broke down in the same place. What does that do to your lungs. Riding thru those silt areas, you come out like the people walking out of the WTC with dust.

Bottom line is we breath asbestos everyday on hyways and roads from brake dust, particals from cottage cheese ceilings, forced air heating ducts wrapped in asbestos. The WTC was certainly an extreme dose of bad stuff.
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Postby AlphaOmega » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:06 am

Here is another video that I have seen which raises more questions. The only comment I will make is that this video is quite compelling.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 836573015#

I do not offer opinion but ask for comments and feed back.

Background and Credentials of Prof. Steven Jones

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

This will obviously lead to the question "How were the bombs placed in to the WTC buildings?"

The Answer could be: The WTC Buildings were completely closed off to everyone on the Labor Day weekend for 3 days prior to 9-11 for maintenance, according to the information I have gathered so far it has been suggested that the only people allowed in the buildings were "maintenance staff and technicians or persons authorized by WTC Security only"

From what I am able to gather this was a 24 hour a day lockdown during this 3 day period. I have not been able to determine as yet how many Maintenance Staff and Technicians were working during this period however the crews did work 24 hours a day for each of the 3 days.

Therefore: Would this be enough time to plant bombs??? I believe that would depend on the numbers of such work crews if indeed bombs were planted.
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Postby chiselray » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:30 pm

There are 4 basic categories which 9/11 conspiracy theorists fall into. Category 1 is Repressed Guilt, brought on by the unsupported belief that the theorist might have been able to help prevent the attacks somehow. Category 2 is Leftover Hippies and their offspring, which wouldn't believe the Government if it told them their house was burning and they could see the flames. Category 3 is Glory-Seekers, basically bored people out to make a name for themselves. Lastly, there is Category 4, Disinformation Specialists, out to generate anti-American sentiment, and divide US public opinion to cause confusion and/or civil unrest, which will make future attacks easier to perpetrate.


laughs..

i have COMpletely changed my view on the 9/11 conspiracy belief,i now believe there was no coverup or conspiracy..the government and secret agencies (whatever) had nothing to do with 9/11..after reviewing countless distorted facts recently and really letting those facts have their day in court so to speak,the official versions are much more appropriate truth and realism than conspiracy stories over the day of 9/11 ..
I admit i was wrong about my views,but i also applaud the ability to see the forest through the trees and not stagnate my reasoning to a point where i am unable to think and calculate reality from conjecture.. There was no conspiracy people..For all those who have stood by the offical version,good on you for fighting the good fight
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