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Science and the Bible agree

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby frrostedman » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:50 pm

mrshumphreys wrote:
frrostedman wrote:If my wife believed these things, I would have to question in my mind--how does she know she truly loves me? It would eat away at me. I don't mind having guy friends like this because at the end of the day we go home. But if someone like this were someone I had to count on for love? That would be impossible.


You are a very silly man, sometimes.


Are you ignoring your pms, or just not checking them.
I'm hurt, I said "hi" to you last week. :P


I guess pop-ups are turned off? HI! I'll check now.
"But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about Jesus being a great teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." C.S. Lewis
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Postby humphreys » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:54 pm

frrostedman wrote:"Cold" is a common American expression that means "without emotion." It does not mean "cold-blooded" or "cold-hearted" which you equate me (and all Christians) with because we love a God that rejects those who don't.

I embrace emotion as a real and necessary thing. Love to me--not infatuation--is something that comes from the heart, not the human computer otherwise known as the brain. You take a completely different approach. Love to you--based on how you describe it--is nothing more than something I could program a computer to do. True love is heartfelt, all-encompassing, and transcends and supercedes all previous notions and beliefs. Here's the part that will 'frost' you the most. I never knew true love until I knew God.

As far as the lying goes, read my post just above yours.


Computers are not conscious. No consciousness, no love. It is a "feeling" which is a by-product of the brain's processing.

It cannot be programmed because the human brain is not programmed.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby mrshumphreys » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:58 pm

frrostedman wrote:"Cold" is a common American expression that means "without emotion." It does not mean "cold-blooded" or "cold-hearted" which you equate me (and all Christians) with because we love a God that rejects those who don't.


I'm just going to pretend you never said that, as it is baseless and has nothing to do with anything.

I embrace emotion as a real and necessary thing. Love to me--not infatuation--is something that comes from the heart, not the human computer otherwise known as the brain.


Let me get this straight. You think that Love (capitalized because you did) is formed in the actual heart? And by "real" I take it you mean it is an actual physical thing that you can pick up and hold, because otherwise you are creating an argument about "reality" where there is none.

You take a completely different approach. Love to you--based on how you describe it--is nothing more than something I could program a computer to do.


Correction. That should read: Love to you--based on how I've decided to take what you describe it as-- is nothing more than something I could program a computer to do.


True love is heartfelt, all-encompassing, and transcends and supercedes all previous notions and beliefs.


I think you are confusing metaphor with reality, Tom.
"It's like arguing with a brick wall, except the brick wall thinks you're an idiot, and thinks it's winning." - Humphreys, that sexy beast.

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Postby humphreys » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:00 pm

What happens if someone has a heart transplant, Tom?

Do they get someone else's love? Stop loving their wife?

I am sure you mean something else by "heart", what exactly, I have no idea.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

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Postby mrshumphreys » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:06 pm

You can ignore my posts if it's easier, Tom.
I'm not trying to gang up on you or anything.
Although, actually knowing my husband, I can assure you that he is capable of "real" Love.
I'm just not sure why you find the idea of emotions originating in the brain so repugnant.
"It's like arguing with a brick wall, except the brick wall thinks you're an idiot, and thinks it's winning." - Humphreys, that sexy beast.

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Postby frrostedman » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:23 pm

Now, obviously... I don't believe love is a physical manufactured thing.

As far as saying it comes from the heart, I guess it is something you are incapable or unwilling to understand.

There is more to the human being than what makes us up physically. What I speak of can't be observed in a lab or measured, so it is absolutely meaningless to the two of you. Ergot, this conversation is pointless and meaningless.

Feel free to beat your chests and shout 'victory' from the rooftops because Tom is unwilling to replace item7 as your entertainment for the day. 8-)

edit:

I just checked the New International Version of the bible. The word "heart" is used 743 times. I venture to say that 90% of the time, the word is used in a non-physical sense. No wonder the bible is confusing to you guys!
"But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about Jesus being a great teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." C.S. Lewis
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Postby humphreys » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:35 pm

frrostedman wrote:I just checked the New International Version of the bible. The word "heart" is used 743 times. I venture to say that 90% of the time, the word is used in a non-physical sense. No wonder the bible is confusing to you guys!


Interestingly enough, that's where (the actual PHYSICAL heart) men used to think emotions were generated in the time the Bible was written.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

http://www.skepticfiles.org/skeptic2/11brain.htm

I reckon they were talking about the actual heart a lot more than you imagine, and they were WRONG.

Another one of those places where no one really knows for sure what the heck the Bible writer's were on about, but it makes a ton of sense when you take into account the common beliefs and misconception of people of that time period.
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Postby mrshumphreys » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:37 pm

frrostedman wrote:Now, obviously... I don't believe love is a physical manufactured thing.

As far as saying it comes from the heart, I guess it is something you are incapable or unwilling to understand.


Yes, I realize that is obvious, but I think it's you who doesn't understand that originating in the brain does not make emotion any less "real" than if it originated any place else.

There is more to the human being than what makes us up physically. What I speak of can't be observed in a lab or measured, so it is absolutely meaningless to the two of you. Ergot, this conversation is pointless and meaningless.


I'm not disputing that there is more to the human being than what makes us up physically!!
Thoughts and emotions are both very real in their way, but, as we both agree, you can not pick them up and poke and shake them. There's no argument there. You seem to think that emotions come from some magical emotion factory in the heart, though. That's where the disagreement arises.
Feel free to beat your chests and shout 'victory' from the rooftops because Tom is unwilling to replace item7 as your entertainment for the day. 8-)


erm, okay. I don't think I was involved in the item7 thing. I saw a bit of what he posted on the last page, and I really haven't got that kind of time on my hands. I only popped in and bothered posting for you, and now you're abandoning me. Such is life. Have a good one, Tom.


ETA: Heart (nonphysical sense)= mind, as far as I can tell. Splitting hairs, anyway, and that is what I meant by metaphorical.
"It's like arguing with a brick wall, except the brick wall thinks you're an idiot, and thinks it's winning." - Humphreys, that sexy beast.

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Postby Tairaa » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:22 pm

As far as saying it comes from the heart, I guess it is something you are incapable or unwilling to understand.

Ahh! Condescension.
Are you talking about metaphorically or what have you? Because that's a rather elementary concept, and surely we're all capable of understanding such a thing. If not, then please elaborate!


There is more to the human being than what makes us up physically. What I speak of can't be observed in a lab or measured, so it is absolutely meaningless to the two of you. Ergot, this conversation is pointless and meaningless.


Uhm, well our emotions certainly CAN be observed and measured in a lab, that's the thing.

Item7-

You think I say things that I do not. Just because emotions are a product of our heads does not make them irrelevant, they effect us, they are "real". Not physically so, but they do exist within our own minds. This is obviously never denied by me, I have no idea where you got something so skewed from my relatively simple 3-4 line comments.

So, to more clearly illustrate my point... As if it is required...
(1) Is love in your head? If yes, then proceed to point (2), if not continue.
If love is in fact physically existant outside of yourself, then show an example of this by all means, show a way where love is physically real. Or any emotion for that matter.

(2) Are our thoughts likewise real within our own minds? Yes. Does thought constitute evidence? No. Therefore it can be concluded that just because we thinks something it does not make it real, because reality is observed by us, we don't create our own realities. If you disagree with these two concepts then again, show me how this is NOT the case.

(3) Which ultimately brings us to the final concept. You "know" god exists because of your thought, because of your mind. You're convinced to the point where you will illegitimately proclaim it to be fact. So I ask you. Since mere thought does not constitute fact, what evidence do you have? Surely not the bible, which was written by men, then translated countless times before making it to English and re-written countless times every step of the way, and for which we have numerous different versions of, and from which we also have numerous individual religions all proclaiming to be right. That constitutes no evidence. As always, if you feel I'm wrong point out some evidence! BUT! I emplore you to please look into the definition of evidence before doing so if this is the course you so choose. Different interpretations don't count, it must be clear and concise and intended to mean a certain thing without much room for doubt.


I don't think God is real. That does not mean he is not. In the same way that you DO think God is real, but that does not mean that he/she does.

Do we see eye-to-eye thus far, Item?
I hope I've been more clear in my illustration this time around, so you won't take my words as an insult and you won't have to write in a false argument to replace the one I have put forth.
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Postby MonarchSmile » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:37 pm

Love is a "Full Body" experience, all senses working(not all the time)
Love of____________ (fill in the blank)
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