The Black Vault

Screamzero
You keep reffering to Mosaic Law as being tantamount to everything Western. But it is a completely ethnocentric outlook for three main reasons.

1) Sumerian & Egyptian beliefs predated and were the main influence for Mosaic Law.

2) Other groups than European already had similar laws.

3) And this is totally my opinion, the invasion of Christianity and thusly Judaism by association was completely detrimental to the nations already residing in Europe's natural evolution in regards to culture, religion and philosophy. Then after erasing the native culture of Europe the new religion hopped over the Atlantic to commit the same crime against the Native Americans. Ever since Joshua started committing genocide against the Hittites the three major religions that are rooted in the Bible have been on theological & often times physical war of conquest. The argument that Mosaic Law is paramount to morality is more slippery than oil on ice. There is no such thing as universal morality, that is by definition a moral law adhered to by everyone everywhere through out time. There are cultural moralities, social moralities, and individual realities which change over time and over location, some of them are the same some of them are different, not all are necesarilly better or worse than the other.

This moral benefit you speak of however is not reliant on a single nation-state, that is Israel or its citizens. It is reliant on belief system of a Jewish culture most of which no longer resides in the Eastern Mediterranean and a Christian one spread over most of the Globe. So the physical existence nation state of Israel itself is of no real value to the over all scheme of things. Personally I think you are mixing the nation state of Israel with the Jews on purpose, because of a theological stance that says 'Israel is the Jews" which similar to saying the 'Church is its members' in that sense Israel is not the nation state that resides in the Eastern Mediterranean but a spiritual entity completely seperate from the nation state created after WWII by the UN. I believe it is known that the Neturei Karta and other jews against Zionism would agree that the nation-state of Israel is completely seperate from the spiritual Israel. And I also believe and nad have answered the original thread question on the belief that we were discussing the nation state not the spiritual Israel. Thusly when I speak of Israel I am referring to the governemnt and military of a nation state not the Jews who adhere to Zionist beliefs.

If the US abandoned it's support of Israel,

what benefits would the US lose?

hxxx

The first and most obvious benefit it could lose would be the use of the nation state of Israel as a base of operations in the Middleast, if it is done correctly though we still would have staging areas in Turkey, Jordan Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and perhaps a few new ones as well. The second benefit maybe having the borders closed to Americans except Israeli duel citizens. If support is lost before getting off petroleum the USA will need do some bargaining to keep the canal open and that means helping the Egyptians who currently charge the transit fees on it, and perhaps negortiating with the Gazan government (which is currently run by Hamas party). The trick is to drop the support but at the same time remain friendly with all nations involved, the right moves could end the international terrorism against the USA if done correctly. Done badly we can add direct threats from Israel which included submarines with nuclear warheads.

I get the separate spirit nation and the physical nation....and ya I get Moses was influenced by Egyptian law practices I suppose and that fair doctrines predated Mosaic law. But I do not fully agree w/ your opinion, plus that wasn't the only philosophical socio-political influence per our Western society. Not to throw this off the "is befriending Israel a beneficial relationship for
America " theme of your string; there was: Montesquieu, the Iroquois, Ancient Greece and Rome,
William Blackstone, British legal history, Madison, Jefferson, Aristotle, Marsiglio of Padua, John Locke, Patrick henry (a firm proponent of Jesus Christ-Hebrew from Jerusalem...etc...); as was Thomas Pain (a great critique of Christian hypocrisy); etc. the list goes on as to that; the discourse is comprehensive.

Indulge me a bit more please. I find this contribution of Judeao-Christian influence needs resolution as to where I ethically stand about the matter as opposed to the founding backdrop of this Great Experiment and it's ties to Judeao-Christian ethic; and then I'll list Israel's contribution to America.

(These sections are paraphrased short of plagiarism for expediency's sake.) Founding Fathers alike spoke and wrote regularly and often about the providence of God. They wrote and spoke of the “kind providences of God,” of their firm reliance on “Almighty Providence,” and of the “many merciful providences” with which He has blessed our people.

Though they chose not to make sectarian religious tests a prerequisite for holding federal office, our Founding Fathers nonetheless envisioned and established a national government on a distinctively Trinitarian, Christian law order. This is clear from their proclamations and official acts, as well as the supreme law of the land, the Constitution (and the Declaration of Independence, its preamble) signed in the year of our Lord (Jesus Christ), as well as those treaties which were made in pursuance thereof.. yet all of them inculcating honesty, truth, temperance, gratitude, and the love of man; acknowledging and adoring an overruling Providence.

The primary schoolbook for children, the New England Primer, included the Catechism. Daily recitations of it were required at these schools. Their curriculum included memorization of the Westminster Confession and the Westminster Larger Catechism. There was not a person at Independence Hall in 1776 who had not been exposed to it, and most of them had it spoon fed to them before they could walk. A contribution from that "spiritual" nation that effects us to this day(though not w/out it's spurious detractors) that has contributed to the material manifest of private ownership; wealth, freedom and the pursuit of happiness most successfully.

Those that say, "The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity." are liars. They were men of The Enlightenment, true, and deists were among them.

Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme god created the universe, and that this and other religious truth can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without the need for faith. Deists generally reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs..a bit of an oxymoron when one considers that the concept of a god is even invoked.

None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans. This is a great contention in my experience since my 20's and I'll stick to my guns over it.

"Our two nations have a lot in common, when you think about it. We were both founded by immigrants escaping religious persecution in other lands. We both have built vibrant democracies. Both our countries are founded on certain basic beliefs, that there is an almighty god who watches over the affairs of men and values every life." ...which is true...guess who said that?

Note: Israel's Gross Domestic Product exceeds that of all its neighbors—in fact, is the average of countries in Europe.

Israel contributions and benefits to America:
1) For years, Israel has been America's secret weapon in defending the interests and lives of Americans for the United States. The problem is that, while the U.S. wants and needs Israel's assistance in securing (Huminit) on-ground Intelligence about what Arab Terrorists and Arab Rogue Nations nations are planning against America, it does not want to admit that Israel is its irreplaceable source for deep Intel. Israel reluctantly accepts this policy because America is Israel's ally and friend but, resents this effort to appease Arab nations.

Note: Why, then, does Washington want to shrink Israel back to indefensible pre-1967 borders? Obviously, Washington has interests that compete with if not outweigh Israel’s value as a U.S. ally—for example, Saudi oil and purchases of U.S. arms.

2) If [Israel] were to simultaneously hit only five of the many sensitive points in Saudi Arabia’s downstream oil system, th[at] could put the Saudis out of the oil-producing business for about two years…. Simply blowing of Abqaiq’s up the East-West pipeline’s Pump Station One to smithereens …. would be enough to bring the world’s oil-addicted economies to their knees, America’s along with them/. [Robert Baer/, Sleeping with the Devil./]// (Has Israel hurt us thusly? No. Why irritate them. Them NOT doing this is a present day material contribution))

Note: For FY2006, U.S. military grants to Israel was $2.28 billion (= $2.28B). Since Israel’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 2006, this aid to Israel was less than 1.5% of its GDP!

• Viewed over a longer time period—say between 1991 and 2006—total U.S. military grants and economic assistance to Israel was approximately $47.5B.

What has the U.S. received from Israel in return?

3) Israel must spend about 74% of U.S. military aid in the United States, where it provides jobs for an estimated 50,000 American working men.

4) Total exports from America’s 50 states to Israel between 1991 and 2006 was $102.4B—more than twice the $47.5B Israel received in U.S. aid during this period. The annual average of U.S. exports to Israel was $6.4B per year, more than twice the average American aid package. In fact, total exports to Israel from the 50 states in 2006 was almost $11B—more than four times the U.S. military-economic aid package!

5) Moreover, U.S. military aid to Israel creates a demand for, and the purchase of, tens of billions of dollars worth of U.S. weaponry by Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. U.S. grants to Israel—far from burdening the American tax payer—actually enriches the U.S. economy. Arms manufacturers know this. So do Senators who represent states in which corporations such as Boeing and Lockheed are located. They have vested interests in opposing any sanctions against Israel if it were to take a more independent stand against Palestinian statehood.

6) According to Gen. George Keegan, a former chief of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, between 1974 and 1990, Israeli aid to America was worth between $50-80B in intelligence, research and development savings, Soviet weapons systems captured and transferred to the Pentagon, and testing Soviet military doctrines up to 1990 when the USSR collapsed. Senator Daniel Inouye put it this way: “The contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America is greater than that provided by all NATO countries combined.”

7) Yoram Ettinger reports: Israel relays to the U.S. lessons of battle and counter-terrorism, which reduce American losses in Iraq and Afghanistan, prevent attacks on U.S. soil, upgrade American weapons, and contribute to the U.S. economy. Innovative Israeli technologies boost U.S. industries.

8) The vice-president of the company that produces the F16 fighter jets told Ettinger that Israel is responsible for 600 improvements in the plane’s systems, modifications estimated to be worth billions of dollars, which spared dozens of research and development years.

9) Without Israel, the U.S. would have to deploy tens of thousands of American troops in the eastern Mediterranean Basin, at a cost of billions of dollars a year.

10) n 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor, thus providing the U.S. with the option of engaging in conventional wars with Iraq in 1991 and 2003, thereby preventing a possible nuclear war and its horrendous consequences.

11) In 2005, Israel provided America with the world’s most extensive experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs. American soldiers train in IDF facilities and Israeli-made drones fly above the Sunni Triangle in Iraq, as well as in Afghanistan, providing U.S. Marines with vital intelligence that saved many American lives.

12) Finally, since Israel has phased out economic aid, U.S. military aid is only 1.3% of Israel’s GDP! This figure would be zero if Israel did not spend billions on security fences and military redeployments resulting from territorial retreats.

Note: There is so much contribution from Israel that we need experts to delineate the numbers for a clear veiw:

13) The number of engineers and scientists Israel provides the U.S.

14) The medical technology Israel provides the U.S. and the number of lives saved thereby.

15) The agricultural technology Israel provides the world in general, and the U.S. in particular, and the number lives saved by this technology.

16) The U.S.- Israel scientific research projects.

17) The U.S.-Israel military projects.

16) The monetary significance of U.S-Israel tourism.

These are just a few items that need to be assessed. The public in Israel as well as in America should be informed in quantitative and qualitative terms what Israel contributes to the security, health, and economic prosperity of the United States. Once this research is complete, Israel - of course depending on wise and courageous leadership - will be able to pursue a foreign policy vis-a-vis the U.S. that does not affect the borders of the country.

Please think twice about what you are saying...and somebody tell nest-lies about her "stolen" tax monies. It's been returned by a powerful ally shrouded in mystery a thousand times over.

http://www.science.co.il/arab-israeli-c ... -03-16.asp

OK, how about this for the US benefiting from its relationship with Israel.

If Israel did not have support from a large country, it would most likely be attacked by any one of its neighbors. If that were to happen then it would lead to even more of the world being run by Islamo-Fascist religious fundamentalist whacko's. That is the sort of thing that leads to instability, in this case, of the middle east. In case you haven't been paying attention your whole life, the US still needs, and will continue to need well into the future, the resources of the middle east, namely oil. If there is instability there, then the US could lose those resources and that could lead to even bigger problems. Not only that, but further wars could erupt there since most of the separate Islamo-Fascist countries don't get along with each other any more than they get along with Israel. And some of those I-F whacko's would immediately cut off the oil supply to the US, as Saddam tried.

The entire question of this thread is based on the kind of ignorance that would question the US supporting the Nicaraguan Contras trying to fight foreign communist invasion or Cuban Freedom Fighters resisting Castro, or the US trying to stop the USSR/China from taking all of Asia (Korea and Vietnam/Cambodia) and any one of other imperialistic dictators invading his neighbors, like Saddam invading Kuwait.

You either believe in freedom or you don't. If any man is a slave then all men are slaves. And you can quote me on that.

CodeBlack wrote:OK, how about this for the US benefiting from its relationship with Israel.

If Israel did not have support from a large country, it would most likely be attacked by any one of its neighbors. If that were to happen then it would lead to even more of the world being run by Islamo-Fascist religious fundamentalist whacko's. That is the sort of thing that leads to instability, in this case, of the middle east. In case you haven't been paying attention your whole life, the US still needs, and will continue to need well into the future, the resources of the middle east, namely oil. If there is instability there, then the US could lose those resources and that could lead to even bigger problems. Not only that, but further wars could erupt there since most of the separate Islamo-Fascist countries don't get along with each other any more than they get along with Israel. And some of those I-F whacko's would immediately cut off the oil supply to the US, as Saddam tried.

The entire question of this thread is based on the kind of ignorance that would question the US supporting the Nicaraguan Contras trying to fight foreign communist invasion or Cuban Freedom Fighters resisting Castro, or the US trying to stop the USSR/China from taking all of Asia (Korea and Vietnam/Cambodia) and any one of other imperialistic dictators invading his neighbors, like Saddam invading Kuwait.

You either believe in freedom or you don't. If any man is a slave then all men are slaves. And you can quote me on that.

* Naaa! Once that greasy-palmed tribe of con-men is defeated things will settle down to peace.

- The whole world will gradually be a more peaceful place.

Sharing truth with you is like throwing cherries to pigs.


mael.

hxxx, Israel is a waste of American money, time, resources, and especially a waste of American lives.

The crap spouted about "islamo-fascist" is nothing but propaganda, said by those either paid or too stupid to see propaganda. Before England meddled in Palestine the Muslims and Jews lived side by side without this crap. In India today, Christians, Hindus, and Muslims live side by side and share food over their fences after holidays. But, according to the Law of Moses, Jews aren't supposed to eat food made by non-jews. That would be an abomination. That may even require a stoning. After all, we are "unclean". Especially us women.

When the US has wanted a more secular friend in the Middle East, we befriended Saddam. That was back when we looked the other way as he gassed the Kurds. Now, we're befriending the terrorists MEK because they want to overthrow the Iranian government.

It's all crap. If we want to "spread democracy", then let the people of the Middle East decide their own governments and what happens to their resources. The US has enough resources to not have to take others and to support ourselves. We, the US, need to stop meddling in other countries affairs. Oh and, Israel is merely a zit on the Earth, ready to be popped.

Netlie, why are you so weird? Did not Christ say one man's meat is
another man's poison? ..or is He a bit too Jewish for you?..or maybe
not Jewish enough? (wow..what a concept )

There are Indians that chase field rats into brush
fires for din din...would you like one? (Not the Indian silly,
a BBQ rat .)

Are you denying that Israel has
returned your "stolen" taxes a thousand fold? Is it more proof
you need to convince you the lie you preach is so hollow? Did you
not read the results of the scientific survey propounded by facts?
You'll find it in my last post in this string honey pie.

Is your course in life to veil the reality of true honor, reciprocative
and civil above board politics and international cooperation?
You know the whole world has totally benefited from the medical
and agribusiness these two benefactors (Israel did a lot with this;
'member the green houses they gifted the Palestinins
...that Hamas destroyed?...just an itty bitty example )... these
breakthroughs were shared and released to all humanity.
OR... do you "patriotically" serve up instead
subversive rhetoric for religious fanatics whose only organized
effort is that they excel in suicide?!? Is this why your a hybrid
left wing Libertarian? How quasi.

Are you really comparing the medical, military, humanistic, scientific,
agribusiness and agricultural groundbreaking breakthroughs and
technologically superior advancements beyond excellence that Israel
and America veraciously excel in and dominate?....which has proffered
America with BILLIONS of dollars real and in savings effectively returning
your "stolen" tax money better than a thousand fold? Or does that just
piss you off...that doesn't piss you off, does it? You should be feeling
much better by now...in spite of our Prez Obumer's Fav pastime exploits.

Or are your really wanting to
downplay these Truths and Facts?... for the benefits of the truly screwed
and abused laymen Palestinians that are fed and then blown up by their
charitable Hamas? ...the predatory "underdog" you praise and fend for
so vigorously.

What would be your reasoning for wanting to slander and squelch fact of
undeniable humanity and civil breakthroughs shared by the brilliance of
Jewish and American scientists that over whelm the ignorance of man with
benefits that have never been matched in history? does the good of it
rea-a-ly bother
you? ...I mean..you know...irritate?!?!?

Have you a wise insight for shrouding real progress with argumentative smoke
and contentious and distracting declarations that aren't productive? Your not very
skilled at such subversive propaganda.

I can teach you very, very well...but you must be willing to open your eyes. Here's your first
lesson: Just speak the Truth. There...that's easy enough isn't it? I mean...your
tongue doesn't swell up and GaG you or nothin' when you do...that...does it sweety?

I can also suggest a 12 step program that can help a great deal...oh..my...for the life
of me; we all know what that is don't we ...sorta like we rea-a-aly know what's
the truth from the false..unless, of course, there really is a problem; but
......... there is a solution to that as well. I'm relieved, aren't you?
Have heart...recourse is at hand. Have a nice day dear.

Oh!..P.S. Why don't you click the second link of my signature and
listen to the last four or five of my relaxing piano songs I wrote.
Their good for your nerves...really.

Plus you'll get to see my face (see? I ain't a skeered!) and smile and
look straight into my eyes...take a good look at your future potential mentor
and see a real heart that sanely gives a damn...go ahead...plus the tunes
will do you well...
their very relaxing... the serenity will do you s-o-o-o much good. I promise.
I recommend African Rain and Spanish Clippers or The Edge of Blue.