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Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby Halfabo » Sun May 17, 2009 12:45 am

Illuminati wrote:
Dark-Samus wrote:I`ve been thinking a bit.

This is my reason to why most religious people are hypocrites.

We all know that there are alot of things that religions consider as sins right?
So, if someone´s son/daughter commits murder, most parents would still love or have atleast some connection to their son/daughter.

Murder is a sin.

IF they steal they still are their son/daughter in their eyes and still loves it.

Stealing a sin.

IF they are cheating on their wife or husband they are still being loved and so on by their parents.

Unfaithful to ones other half is a sin.

But if that son/daughter is gay, WOW it´s the end of the world right?!
They are most of the times thrown out of their homes, they don´t consider their son/daughter asd their child, they break all conenctions to it.
They see them as sinners and unworthy to their eyes and in some occassions even go as far as to murder that child or making othwers murder it just because it is gay.

Being gay is a sin.

So let me ask all of you so called religious people.

If everything above is consider a sin, why is gays treated alot worse than a murderer and why on earth is that sin considered to be the worst damn thing ever?!
Why don´t you kill or throw your kid out if they have stolen?
Can you answer that?! :roll:
It´s pathetic, simply pathetic and no matter what anyone says, you can´t win against this argument. :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I hate to say it but this is the stupidest argument which I have seen here or on any other board/forum.

First, I am your test subject. I love my, soon to be in July, four daughters. Later on in life, lets say one of them commits murder without question. I will still love her. I will accept the fact that I will miss her but no one is above the law of the land. Murder is murder and she must do her time. It would tear me apart but we do not live in a world of faeries and elves. Reality is a harsh ruler.

Lets say one of my daughter's is a thief who steals and gets caught. At any time in her life, as I have already been explaining to my three children about stealing I would tell her that life is harsh and she must pay for her crimes, just like I have teaching her now. Tough love, but she must learn her lesson. I would still love her as much as when she was born, but again reality is a harsh ruler.

I would be disappointed in them if any of my children committed adultery. I would still love them, but they are going to have a lifetime of what ifs and whatnots to deal with. Their reality in which they made for themselves is punishment, let alone their own father's disappointment. I am still loving them though, even forgiving them and praying over them.

And if any of my daughters came up to me and told me that they felt they liked women in the same manner as my wife loves me I would still love them, not kick them out nor shun them from anything different than if they were loving men. I would not agree with their choices, just the same as i would not agree with them murdering, stealing or cheating on their spouses, but no matter how things go I could never throw my daughter out the door nor condemn them for actions like you have posted.

Reason? The difference between what you see Christianity as and the way I know it as is night and day. You believe, along with almost everyone else here in a wrathful, vengeful God who desires sacrifices and demands our acts of submission. The truth is everything in life is a choice and you have all been duped by idiots who painted that image centuries ago. You fools are willing to believe in an image of fear rather than realize the truth of it all is so simple it has blinded you to ignorance. Christ loved the adulterer; Christ loved the murderer; Christ loved the thief; Christ loved the homosexual- If I am to be Christ-like what should I do them to my family and friends, neighbors and people I meet? Shall I judge others by the same restrictions I choose to place upon myself or shall I love them with open arms and accept them as other members of this universe we live in?

Why can't most of you love others regardless of their beliefs? Apparently anyone who believes in some form of supernatural entity is considered an idiot, worthy of death and branded with an iron of contempt and should be cast into a lake with a millstone around their necks. Where is your love, brothers? Who are the real judges here? Hypocrites.



Interesting how everyone here thinks you are a rarity but, you sound just like most Christians I know. I don't know what "religious" people they've been listening to but, its apparently not actual Christians.
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Postby fortwynt » Sun May 17, 2009 2:10 am

That is precisely the problem with mainstream christianity.....while they logically know that to break one law is to break them all, they still insist on that archaic catholic concept of holding SOME SINS to be WORSE than others, which is complete rubbish.

More importantly, we ALL sin. the bible says, "there are none holy, no, not one"

We all sin in thought and in practice, and in omission EVERY DAY of OUR LIVES.

Another thing to consider...what is sin?

here is where non-religious people get confused as well as religious people.

Spiritual law is not some arbitrary rule that God just comes up with for the sake of controlling you and dictates it to you and you must abide by it regardless of how silly it seems, or face the fires of Hell as the consequence.

The simple truth is, a spiritual "law" (think of the "law" of gravity) is a natural and logical principle. When God says "thou shalt not steal", it is not just some "thing" God decided to say to you just for the hell of it. Stealing runs contrary to logical and natural spiritual princple....

I would even go so far as to say that it is not even God who comes up with these laws, but that they are natural and inherent to the very universe, built right in to its very fabric...not just some "rule book" someone came up with.

that being said....there are plenty of things the church is ridiculous about, and plenty of things they DEEM sin, which are laughable at best.

Smoking, Drinking, and my favorite chuckle of all time, "cursing"......

No cigarette (or joint) ever put anyone in hell, or ever could....one can drink alcohol and still be just as much a good person in Gods eyes as one who doesnt....and cursing...well that it just the limit of my ability to be irritated at something....to think there is a set of words we arent "allowed to say", is just the most ridiculous notion that could be arrived at...God certainly did not come up with that one.

As for Gays....while I believe that homosexuality runs contrary to the nature of how we were created, or even if one isnt religious, runs contrary to the very way "nature" designed us, it is really of little concern because we engage in plenty of things that are inherently "un-natural" as far as that goes. We fly in planes every day, we weren't meant to fly or we would have been given wings....we use drugs (though apparently the "good" kind lol) to combat illness and regulate certain types of body malfunction, this is certainly not "natural"....

At the end of the day, ones relationship with God must be between he(she) and God.

I firmly believe that one can be a homosexual and (potentially) make it to "heaven" (i use that term loosely) if they are a loving person who is forgiving, meek, charitable, and non-violent...and even if they arent, God allows us to screw up so long as we understand and apologize with a sincere heart for the errors of our ways and seek to improve ourselves.

Period.
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Postby Dark-Samus » Sun May 17, 2009 3:34 am

I love the fact your senerio assumes facts all religious people treat murder, stealing, and infidelity in their kids this way, and all religious people treat being gay another way. Your senerio is very self serving and pretty much "loaded", which in itself is very hypocritical.


I never mentioned all religious people if you read carefully.
Specially the first sentences.
If most of these people didn´t treat their kids for being gay in a different way then why is it such a big problem today specially for gays?
Do you think we are delusional and needs something to blame for our suffering?
You think that people have suffered 100´s of years of miseary to make people feel sorry for them? :roll:

I firmly believe that one can be a homosexual and (potentially) make it to "heaven" (i use that term loosely) if they are a loving person who is forgiving, meek, charitable, and non-violent...and even if they arent, God allows us to screw up so long as we understand and apologize with a sincere heart for the errors of our ways and seek to improve ourselves.

Period.


If more people had this way of thinking the world would be alot better.

I mearly resoponded to a senerio presented, that was "one-sided and loaded" in terms of the senerio presented. What he discribes in a senerio that could be plugged into any set of parents, regardless of a religious foundation or not. Saturos will not let go of the fact he thinks religion is the root of woes, and problems, in the gay community. I have posted and shown him studies have proven this is not the case, and that the mental health issues in the gay lifestyle, are from within the lifestyle, not a religions outside of it. These are proven studies, that I did not make up, just like I didn;t make up the CDC statistics.


How do you think most problems gays have has come to be in the first place?
I bet that gays before the religions came to be, had it alot better than today.
I wonder how these studies and the ones that conducted them are so sure that religions didn´t cause these problems?
It´s one thing that some gay people have mental problems but that almost all have some kind of problem does not apply to any logic.

Most mental problems starts from interfierence of another factor.
And religious people are the ones that have been the greatest threat to gays.
You can´t argue with that.
Truth doesn´t control you, you control it...
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Postby greeney2 » Sun May 17, 2009 10:31 am

This is my reason to why most religious people are hypocrites.


These are your words Dark--I inturpet them as "most" means just about "all" religous people!


I'm sorry but you havn't proven this senerio is any different with families or parents of a non-practicing or non-religious basis.

As far as the study concerning the religious interference, you know the study we discussed on the last board. It showed the many mental health issues facing the gay communities, and the findings were that they were from the lifestyles itself, having nothing to do with religious persecussion. This was a very major study as you recall. Gays would want to blame all their problems on the religions of the world, but the fact is suicide rates 5 times higher than hetrosexuals, was becasue of rejection and failed relationships. That had nothing to do with religion, as well as about 3 or 4 other metal health issues gays seem to suffer from. All not religion generated conditions. Without finding the study again, I can't recall the exact other afflictions. It was well proven, by this study, the influence of religious condemnation was not a factor in these problems. They were a result of the lifestyle itself!
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Postby Dark-Samus » Mon May 18, 2009 8:30 am

No they were not.
My life is tormented by the people around me, not by myself.
If it were not for them my life would be alot better today.
I would even have made it into the biggest scientific minds today but nooooo, these ***holes just ruined my life.

Just ask yourself, who was it that first started condemning gays as sinners, a plague and needed to get rid off?, Ofiicially
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Postby Illuminati » Tue May 19, 2009 5:47 pm

Halfabo wrote:Interesting how everyone here thinks you are a rarity but, you sound just like most Christians I know. I don't know what "religious" people they've been listening to but, its apparently not actual Christians.


I'm a rarity? Neat! I will add that to my greeting cards.
I have been told I am weird, but then again I am posting on the Blackvault. Just another smaller CIA list I am on. Go figure.

Sorry. Not meant to derail.
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Postby Illuminati » Tue May 19, 2009 5:49 pm

Dark-Samus wrote:No they were not.
My life is tormented by the people around me, not by myself.
If it were not for them my life would be alot better today.
I would even have made it into the biggest scientific minds today but nooooo, these ***holes just ruined my life.

Just ask yourself, who was it that first started condemning gays as sinners, a plague and needed to get rid off?, Ofiicially


Historically? The Greeks- pre-Christian to boot.
They lost of course, and then afterwards their civilization was taken over by the Romans, though their Greek culture remained.
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Postby Nesaie » Tue May 19, 2009 8:48 pm

Dark-Samus wrote: I`ve been thinking a bit.

This is my reason to why most religious people are hypocrites.

We all know that there are alot of things that religions consider as sins right?
So, if someone´s son/daughter commits murder, most parents would still love or have atleast some connection to their son/daughter.

Murder is a sin.

IF they steal they still are their son/daughter in their eyes and still loves it.

Stealing a sin.

IF they are cheating on their wife or husband they are still being loved and so on by their parents.

Unfaithful to ones other half is a sin.

But if that son/daughter is gay, WOW it´s the end of the world right?!
They are most of the times thrown out of their homes, they don´t consider their son/daughter asd their child, they break all conenctions to it.
They see them as sinners and unworthy to their eyes and in some occassions even go as far as to murder that child or making othwers murder it just because it is gay.

Being gay is a sin.

So let me ask all of you so called religious people.

If everything above is consider a sin, why is gays treated alot worse than a murderer and why on earth is that sin considered to be the worst damn thing ever?!
Why don´t you kill or throw your kid out if they have stolen?
Can you answer that?! :roll:
It´s pathetic, simply pathetic and no matter what anyone says, you can´t win against this argument. :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Actually, for a man to lie with another man it is an "abomination" (much worse than a mere sin). It comes from the "law" of Moses. It is in Lev 20:13:

13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... &version=9

But...Jesus supposedly "fulfilled" the "law" so it doesn't count any more. This is part of my whole bloody argument on this board...outside of Paul...but that comes later. ;)

Then again...wanna see what else is an "abomination"? :D (BTW, all of these quotes come from the "law" ;))

Genesis 43:32 (King James Version)

32And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, which did eat with him, by themselves: because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

(Never eat bread with a Hebrew...that is an abomination. :lol: )

Genesis 46:34 (King James Version)

34That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

(Got sheep??? That's an abomination! :shock: :lol: )

Exodus 8:26 (King James Version)

26And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?

Leviticus 7:18 (King James Version)

18And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.

Leviticus 11:10 (King James Version)

10And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

(If you don't eat kosher, and you eat oysters, muscles, etc. that is "an abomination"...man I live in Seattle, no wonder these christians had to commit genocide against the Natives)

Anyway, it goes on here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=9;

See all the "abominations" from the "law" where modern day Paul followers condemn you for following natural instinct. I believe being gay is nature, as it is in the animal world, and not nurture. ;) (dang...I may have just started something that I'm not going to have time to come back to for a while...:( but...maybe...hopefully I can get a smile on your face when you see all the "abominations" in the Hebrew "law" that the Mulsims actually follow.)
Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky
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Postby Nesaie » Tue May 19, 2009 8:52 pm

Questioner101 wrote:“You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” - Anne Lamott


GREAT quote! I'm not familiar with Anne Lamott. I'm gonna have to check her out...
Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky
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Postby Nesaie » Tue May 19, 2009 9:23 pm

Illuminati wrote:
Why can't most of you love others regardless of their beliefs? Apparently anyone who believes in some form of supernatural entity is considered an idiot, worthy of death and branded with an iron of contempt and should be cast into a lake with a millstone around their necks. Where is your love, brothers? Who are the real judges here? Hypocrites.


Um...I actually believe in Deity.

It just seems that if I don't believe in the same Deity you do (not specifically you, but you in plural) , I get a lot of crap. Even if I were to call myself Christian, there would be other christians of other denomination, who wouldn't actually follow what you say above. Before asking us outsiders for love, why don't you start with your own group? Kinda like changing the republican party from the inside.
Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky
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