The Black Vault

They were looking at him as a success object. They were looking at his house, swimming pool, large tract of land, garage..etc etc...and the fact that it was all paid up...no liens on anything.

Hopefully not all of them,I would dare to say, there are women out there who have all that,and more, and still want and crave the intimacy of spiritual,very soulsearching true kind of love.
Are men intimidated by a womans wealth?...like I am about a man"s wealth?...(I suffer from a phobia of being scared of rich men..a trust thing..I'm workin on it ,cause there are some decent rich men out there,as well as super super decent ones who are poor, < honest,and of much more moral integrity than the "rich man".)

I actually think I'd pick a poor man with integrity ,and honesty than a rich man anyday..but there could be rich men who have those qualities..I'm not sure...I sorta avoid them..like the plague..(I know its out of whack trust issue,I've talked seriously to some professionals about it)

anyhow orangetom...sort of sound like your describing the "typical" man cave...only yours is peaceful and serene,with no outside media intrusion,I imagine some nice soothing music to listen to while you lose yourself in a book?

(sighs)..I would love to be greeted coming home by someone like that myself, a person ,who wants only your best pleasure to be real...someone who had the bath drawn..with wonderful scented oils,,and soothing music playing as a bathe....

and realizing that when i get out,put my robe on, there will be a very beautiful dinner waiting for me, with the candles lit....and the most wonderful company I could hope for.....in the most beautiful man that I have ever had the pleasure to lay eyes on (beauty here being much more than a physical thing)..

orangetom1999 wrote:Peace means that a man can come home to a place where he is safe from the outside world. Protected. This place is made so by a womans efforts/labors...out of understanding...knowledge..wisdom. Not wisdom of the heart per se..but the wisdom of God.
He is safe there..not a place of chaos run amok by the television...the children, the inlaws, outlaws..and anything and everything from the outside world. The children are not running the show here..unto chaos.
A man has a place to come to after his labors ...a place in which in his way...he comes in first place...in Peace.
I am not saying here to put the woman and children last...but to include the man in first place. A man should not come in last place while being expected to give first fruits to good or excellent consumers. Understand now??

First fruits to good or excellent consumers....if someone ever wants to talk of me in that way or a child those fruits had better be godly....otherwise its nothing none of us women can't get on our own, remember that. Thats one of the issues with men today, now a days if they are helping along in a house hold financially they would like to think that is the only thing required of them to bring to the table. Men use money as a way of manipulation and control just as a woman would sex- both is complete BS.

The true commodity in any relationship or union to me is honesty. If you don't know alot about who you are and what you want and your intentions are not part of your conscious awareness, things will always fail, because we then have unrealistic expectations. Things in a relationship between a man and a woman become 'conditions'......and then we find ourselves looking at better or different 'conditions'.....and we realise we can't uphold false ideas, in who we are and what we want. Any union where people are not growing and learning together is going to have serious issues....because then it becomes a game of control.

You have to have an open understanding of what real growth is, and accept one another unconditionally, or it will not be a union that God would support to begin with. Women are out there looking for men with money because they find if they can't have the real thing they might as well have the money. Men are thinking well if I can't have the real thing, I might as well get the best piece I can find....oh iiiiick. And alot of the others that want 'peace', don't have it within themselves to begin with. How about when we focus on having expectations of ourselves first. Love ourselves unconditionally so that we can be of any real use to anyone else.

sandra wrote,

First fruits to good or excellent consumers....if someone ever wants to talk of me in that way or a child those fruits had better be godly....otherwise its nothing none of us women can't get on our own, remember that. Thats one of the issues with men today, now a days if they are helping along in a house hold financially they would like to think that is the only thing required of them to bring to the table. Men use money as a way of manipulation and control just as a woman would sex- both is complete BS.

The true commodity in any relationship or union to me is honesty. If you don't know alot about who you are and what you want and your intentions are not part of your conscious awareness, things will always fail, because we then have unrealistic expectations. Things in a relationship between a man and a woman become 'conditions'......and then we find ourselves looking at better or different 'conditions'.....and we realise we can't uphold false ideas, in who we are and what we want. Any union where people are not growing and learning together is going to have serious issues....because then it becomes a game of control.

You have to have an open understanding of what real growth is, and accept one another unconditionally, or it will not be a union that God would support to begin with. Women are out there looking for men with money because they find if they can't have the real thing they might as well have the money. Men are thinking well if I can't have the real thing, I might as well get the best piece I can find....oh iiiiick. And alot of the others that want 'peace', don't have it within themselves to begin with. How about when we focus on having expectations of ourselves first. Love ourselves unconditionally so that we can be of any real use to anyone else

darn it sandra...you just make such great sense at times...
really awesome post...and a lot of it, really brought to light some of the issues we are dealing with as a society.

Even though I don't agree, with the love yourself unconditionally part..it is important to love yourself,forgive yourself, and that is where the true understanding of what kind of "love " you really are capable of giving,as well as receiving, lays.

Luv that post...(shh don't tell greeney) sorry G2..now I'm teasin ya ..
but you ain't reading my lousy posts anyhow

Sheye,

Hopefully not all of them,I would dare to say, there are women out there who have all that,and more, and still want and crave the intimacy of spiritual,very soulsearching true kind of love.
Are men intimidated by a womans wealth?...like I am about a man"s wealth?...(I suffer from a phobia of being scared of rich men..a trust thing..I'm workin on it ,cause there are some decent rich men out there,as well as super super decent ones who are poor, < honest,and of much more moral integrity than the "rich man".)

Most of the women I have ever known are interested in Options. They are not interested per se in how they get there to the options or the options get to them.

This here Sheye....

anyhow orangetom...sort of sound like your describing the "typical" man cave

I am going to explain something to you for which I think most males cannot think through. They are to sports oriented to run touchdowns to think it through. Most women, mothers, and females are not interested at all in clueing a male in because they are not interested in any competition or dissent from a male.

Peace also means that a man comes home to his peaceful place for which he works...to know that the family budget is not shot all to hell...with this or that ..bills are not falling into arears..etc etc. This too is not peaceful.
Now a thinking man can understand that he can get this himself ..without a woman or female..but he would like to have it with a woman..or a female.

Remember what I stated before...the trick or strategy is to groom a male ..to run touchdowns for his woman and the kids..no matter how much it costs him..including his life if necessary for home delivery pizza..every week. All she has to do is figure out how to exchange privily his plays for her plays while he runs touchdowns without thinking about the game.
Now when a man knows this..as a working strategy...and the best his woman can come up with is a "man cave" It becomes obvious he is working with a deficit.

Now...think about this...have you ever watched older couples ..where the man seems to find more peace and solace out in the garage working on a project than he does in the house for which he works...or with his woman and children?? I know lots of them. They even find more order and peace at work than at home. Do you think for one minute that a woman is interested in this tell tale sign or of a man's worries, concerns or insecurities?? Or is she just interested that the goodies keep coming without RISK to her and the children?? She does not want to question her holy of holies..her belief system.

This is what my friend was stating in that they looked at what they could get for themselves and their children..not what they needed to be bringing him. The standard M1A issue belief system is that "I should be enough for him." This is the common religion..the fantasy...the belief system.



Women with money tend to marry or date up the economic ladder with men who make more. Most men sense this in women...at any age.

There are good rich men out here. Most of them will be taken. Same thing with not so rich men.

(sighs)..I would love to be greeted coming home by someone like that myself, a person ,who wants only your best pleasure to be real...someone who had the bath drawn..with wonderful scented oils,,and soothing music playing as a bathe....

and realizing that when i get out,put my robe on, there will be a very beautiful dinner waiting for me, with the candles lit....and the most wonderful company I could hope for.....in the most beautiful man that I have ever had the pleasure to lay eyes on (beauty here being much more than a physical thing)..

LOL LOL LOL Sheye, I love to cook when I have time. I love to have the woman I am seeing come over and fix dinner for her. I am not much into candles per se..nor bubble baths but I understand the attraction of women to scents and a nice bath...private time.
One of my favorite pastimes is to rub her feet after a hard days work and dinner..till she falls asleep. I'll cover her up and tell her to "sleep...sleep baby..I'll watch over you." and then I get the dishes washed up and put on some coffee amaretto.

You have me pegged correctly when you state reading a book. Reading a book is a nice past time and I will be doing alot of that this weekend along with repairs around the house and garage.

Well ..enough of that. I am hanging out to much laundry here.



Sandra,

LOL LOL LOL...I cant help it here...this....

First fruits to good or excellent consumers....if someone ever wants to talk of me in that way or a child those fruits had better be godly....otherwise its nothing none of us women can't get on our own, remember that.

First fruits is exactly what I am talking about. A woman can indeed get it herself as can any man worthwhile. However ..my point still stands in what I described above to Sheye.
Many women havent a clue..and are not interested in it ..period. Only the settings on their dial. I know this by listening to the guys at work. Many of them are so stupid they even dont get it..they only react to a stimulus which is not theirs.
Indeed..it needs to be Godly ..both on the part of the man as well as the woman. Peace is indeed one of the names of Jesus The Christ for Remission of Sins. You do know this correct??
This is why Peace is so important in a home. From both the man and woman.

Thats one of the issues with men today, now a days if they are helping along in a house hold financially they would like to think that is the only thing required of them to bring to the table. Men use money as a way of manipulation and control just as a woman would sex- both is complete BS.

Hmmmm..this is very interesting Sandara. What else is required for a man to bring to the table. Do you have a list??? I would like to see it if you do!!

As to any woman using sex...if this is all she has...she will never be able to bring a man Peace..never. Peace is the furthest thing from her mind and soul. Any man worth his salt can get women to take off their clothes. It is not difficult. It is far more difficult to get a woman to bring a man Peace. Peace requires far more work and commitment from a woman than Piece.
I know women who will give a man piece to keep him on her touchdown play running her touchdowns because real commitment/Peace is much much harder...takes alot more work and commitment.
Are all women like this ..certainly not. But it is far more common than any poll will ever be taken on it.

You have to have an open understanding of what real growth is, and accept one another unconditionally,

Negative. You have to be able to accept someones conditions. Women have far more conditions to which they think themselves socially entitled than do men. The problem with most males is that their condition list is much smaller and so many men cannot even get that one condition met. What a pitiful unthinking bunch of dummies.

I know this because when women get married here in the west...socially it is considered her power day. It is the day she gains access to more options without risk..without work. She can satisfy more of her conditions under the same terms.
Almost no thinking man ...claims his marriage day is his power day.
Marriage or Brides magazines are one of the thickest of the genre on the stands. This is very tell tale of the value and importance of this day...her objective if you like..appropriate to the title of this thread.

The sad truth once again is that males as a whole have their eyes on the "oil shortage.' Such thinking is foreign to them.

I dont believe in unconditional love. I believe in people having conditions. And certain conditions need to be respected or once again conditions will change with the expectations that someone change to handle them..ie..controlled to handle them. ..with the attendant RISKS.

This is why I asked you what is on your list for a man to bring to the table other than money. RISK.

There is only one who Loved and Gave unconditionally...by Grace. All the rest of us will fall short in this body of flesh. This is why I have no confidence in unconditional love. It is a nice catch word..or phrase...but right there in your post..you are putting in your conditions. Kinda makes your position strange when one sees it. Most women are not accustomed to a man being able to see it ..and they would be mostly correct. But I see it Sandra....conditions.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

If you consider conditions, risk, yes,,,,I need a risk taker, all else can't hang ten.
However unconditional love is not a nice catch word and phrase, that is a good reflection of how you feel about it, and you go on to state you do not believe in unconditional love, yet you believe in God,,,and so on and so on. Your conditions for a relationship appear listlessly annoying to be honest. A man that spends this much time thinking of circumstances and conditions in a relationship- not a risk taker,,,more like a deal breaker.

Orange Tom..
I was thinking.
Maybe, a 'good' female mate could help to be a bridge for a male to emotionally connect with his offspring (more thouroughly?).

especially his son/s.

I see so many fathers and their adult sons in life not able to genuinely connect...and then it's too late..and they are hurting for it.
It's like, all is well until puberty hits..then a devide begins. One they seem to have trouble getting over.

A 'good' female mate could help with that. (among other things.."behind every great man..", etc..)

That mey not be the exact answer you were seeking..but I feel it's on the right track.

I dont believe in unconditional love. I believe in people having conditions. And certain conditions need to be respected or once again conditions will change with the expectations that someone change to handle them..ie..controlled to handle them. ..with the attendant RISKS.

This makes total ^^sense to me orangetom...and your whole post was once again full of thought provoking analysis.

I do appreciate the wisdom in your posts very much,and thankyou
for sharing them..

Bionic,I always appreciate the insight you offer,or jus the simple honesty of how you perceive. ..excellent question on the father son relationship, and how perhaps the womens role plays a hand in helping and "healing"
damages done by hurts and misunderstandings...
(a mother daughter question is along the same viens and would be great as well, to get some feedabck on))

I appreciate men who are willing to discuss things of this nature,

I find many men,(as well as women at times), hold back too much,on the more intimate personal feelings they have about issues, and the problems that life can throw at you , concerning so many areas of life.

We need to hear their voices...as friends, as daughters, as mothers, as lovers, especially as friends...

bionic wrote:Orange Tom..
I was thinking.
Maybe, a 'good' female mate could help to be a bridge for a male to emotionally connect with his offspring (more thouroughly?).

especially his son/s.

I see so many fathers and their adult sons in life not able to genuinely connect...and then it's too late..and they are hurting for it.
It's like, all is well until puberty hits..then a devide begins. One they seem to have trouble getting over.

A 'good' female mate could help with that. (among other things.."behind every great man..", etc..)

That mey not be the exact answer you were seeking..but I feel it's on the right track.

Bionic,

This is a very good post of yours. The tack is excellent. Thank you.

Many fathers cannot today connect with any of their children. Particularly when they get into their teenage years.

I'm going to tell you something about being a man..for which I think even many men cannot themselves express or think through. They simply don't have the ability or vocabulary to express such a concept. Sadly enough they can do a point spread but not get such a simple concept across..either to their sons/children or their woman.

When you are a man in this world..there are going to be times when you have to solve problems which are not always first nature to you. You are going to have to step out on the limb and take chances..real chances..not some make believe, pseudo, virtual experience with a safety net under you so that you get the happy ending.

One thing most men who have been here know...they know that when they have to do this for their monies..for their families...they will be alone ...no one is coming to help them. No one is coming to take the RISK away from them. No one is coming to "Flash dance" them or rescue them through this ordeal and drop the fruits right in front of them. They often find themselves solving the problem/problems alone..from the bottom to the end.

Most of the women and children do not have any interest in this process or how it is done. They just want the goodies brought to them for their discretionary use. They care not about the difficulties or RISKS. They just want it done.
This is also a definition of politics and the body politic. This is very telling to those who can see it. To be Flash Danced.

It is against this tide that so many men find themselves working. It is also why they often find themselves working for first fruits and winding up with second, third, or whatever is left.
They are often the last on the totem pole but first out there when risks are to be taken.
No one wants to see them or hear them..they just want it done.

I know this about many males today brought up mostly by women, televisions, movies, et al..because you usually find them in the comfort zone when the dangerous, hard ,and difficult work is to be done. They are usually where the comforts and goodies are to be found.
It takes a long time if ever to get such a male to pull their heads out and get a breath of fresh air. They are High Maintenance. They think themselves entitled.

This too is objectification of these men....even by their children.

Sandra,

I did not get that list of things other than money that men need to bring to the table otherwise a woman can get them on her own.

What is on this list of yours??

Also you stated here..

If you consider conditions, risk, yes,,,,I need a risk taker, all else can't hang ten.

Ok...no problem ..you need a risk taker. I can understand that.

What are you offering in return for this? What do you have in exchange for this in the marketplace..against the competition??

Fortunately for most women ...most males cannot seem to ask this question/questions...much less think it through. Oil shortage mentality blinding them..putting blinders on them.

Can you answer this question..or is this unconditional too??
You see?? Simple isn't it. To simple.
Or is a mans risk taking something to which a woman is entitled...deserving..unconditionally.
Not only her..but the children too.

I will translate this for you..she controls him here...so do the children. Unconditionally...while putting her conditions on it.

Not difficult when one can think outside the box.

How many RISKS outside of female socialization standards/beliefs are you going to take for your man??

Indeed you are correct in your description that my questions and conditions seem to be listlessly annoying. That is because I am describing what some would consider the holy of holies.
I am questioning a set of givens..both male and female here.
People tend not to want to be vulnerable in answering..especially something which some think should remain concealed..hidden..occult...by social constraints...customs.

I understand vulnerabilities and insecurities..Sandra. I also read Cosmo and take the quizzes.

Your reaction is textbook without answering the questions. No problem I merely make note of it.

I don't think much of what passes for the girl stuff religion out here. I also don't think much of what passes for the male stuff religion out here. I think they are both being conned and merchandised onto a false template.


Sheye,

I appreciate men who are willing to discuss things of this nature,

I find many men,(as well as women at times), hold back too much,on the more intimate personal feelings they have about issues, and the problems that life can throw at you , concerning so many areas of life.

We need to hear their voices...as friends, as daughters, as mothers, as lovers, especially as friends...

Most men are not actually able to discuss things of such a nature...or show their vulnerabilities. For many women when they do ..it is of insecurity and questions their ability to provide..the good provider..the risk taker. They tend not to be attracted to such an vulnerability. Men learn instinctively not to express such and keep it to themselves...especially when men know that women of equality will not be stepping out there where the risks are to be taken.
They are for all purposes ...alone...which is what I stated above to bionic.
Men actually get accustomed to this aloneness..because at times it is more ordered and peaceful than their home life. Understand now??? Pitiful isn't it??

The point here is what can a woman do to bring a man a ordered peaceful home life....one to which he is happy to come to and be safe from the chaos of the outside world..family/children or no children.

Is this asking to much..to much commitment from a woman?? You see??? Is it to difficult for today's woman?? A woman of savvy intellect...gnosis??
Or are there mostly Cosmo girls to be found out here??

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

My list doesn't exist. I have no time to contemplate what I can offer a man and what a man can offer me, in worldy terms, that is of no use to me right now.

orangetom wrote:

Most men are not actually able to discuss things of such a nature...or show their vulnerabilities. For many women when they do ..it is of insecurity and questions their ability to provide..the good provider..the risk taker. They tend not to be attracted to such an vulnerability. Men learn instinctively not to express such and keep it to themselves...especially when men know that women of equality will not be stepping out there where the risks are to be taken.
They are for all purposes ...alone...which is what I stated above to bionic.
Men actually get accustomed to this aloneness..because at times it is more ordered and peaceful than their home life. Understand now??? Pitiful isn't it??

I am a little saddened to think, that a man is afraid to show his "vulnerabilities", because, as a woman I know I can safely say,that most of us want you to feel like you can trust us enough to allow yourself to share, the realness of what you are experiencing on the interior. Women need to know how men are sensitive to some things, they have feelings and dignity (and much pressure and expectations), just as women do, and I think women, deep down , just want to share some of these intimacies of heart and mind, with emotion, with a man.

I personally think men are beautiful,there role in the man/woman relationship is a special one ,not to be duplicated by anything else, just as their role in being a true friend to another male is a bond, and intimacy that is important on this planet as well. Men who can respect other men, and be grateful for the talents and wisdom of their brothers, as well as willing to learn ,and give back any talents and wisdom they themselves have achieved...they are truly on the road to a better happiness and quality of life.

I think women are equally as beautiful,in their gender and how they relate to both genders ,either as family, friend, sister, or just trusted coworker.

orangetom,
I think you would be surprised at what most women want,deep within their heart,and I think one of those things is to truly see the men they love(including brothers, fathers, friends, uncles ,as well as intimate lovers) be happy,feel secure,loved,but that is not always easy,because it is a dance that requires careful footing at times,
With lovers, when one or the other of the "couple" is not watching where their steps are leading,thus throwing the dance off, and not realizing its full potential of beautiful fruition. I see this happen in marriages often,and can admit it happened in my own.

Anyhow just a few more thoughts..
I love this subject and thread,
I could use some thoughts of wisdom from others on many of these issues..thanks,
Bionic, for starting the thread,and thanks for resurrecting it orangetom.