The Black Vault

OraProNobis wrote:No you don't rely on actual evidence. You do your best to try and take away the facts behind actual evidence, such as miracles that have happened at Lourdes, and all over the world, through the power of JESUS CHRIST, just as Christ foretold on the bible.

You still cracking on, I thought you were giving up

I didn't take away any facts about Lourdes (you didn't provide any, by the way), I gave rational explanations including but not limited to the placebo effect, which is a real demonstrable thing.

I asked this once before - why doesn't God heal amputees at Lourdes?

OraProNobis wrote:He did many miracles as well, and that is why the believers grew in number, especially after He raised Lazarus from the dead , and He told His apostles that they would have the power to do this in His name as well.

You cannot prove anyone was raised from the dead, I'm afraid.

OraProNobis wrote:What a load of RUBBISH Humphreys. You run away from the truth like scared little rabbits, afraid you may have to face up to the REALITY that God exists, and Jesus Christ was His only begotten Son, sent to redeem the world.

You have bought into a fairy tale (a ridiculous one at that) as you cannot face reality. You act like you are still a child.

Interestingly, the church has only recognized 67 cures as miraculous at Lourdes.

That certainly is not a lot considering the number of people said to visit there daily.

We need to remember spontaneous remissions in cancer patients, for instance, occur in and out of Lourdes, and to believers and unbelievers alike, seemingly whether prayed for or not. These are deemed "miracles" only because our understanding of the human body and its immune system, and how cancer progresses, is somewhat lacking.

It's the same old crap where "we're not sure why this happened" supposedly equates to "miracle from God". One day we'll understand these remissions, and these "miracles" will be relegated to mundane medical science.

That's why us skeptics ask for examples of amputees regrowing limbs. There is nothing in the Bible that states this should not happen just as often as cancer cures, and yet there are no known cases where this can be proved to have happened. This is the kind of direct, clear evidence that does not have a mundane explanation, and also does not exist, because your God is not real.

A few excerpts from this link.

http://www.spiritdaily.net/AmazingPio_cures.htm

We know only that he has been a fantastic intercessor -- stories of his miracles, both during and subsequent to his death, are absolutely legion -- and after his canonization, that intercession will grow. Of all Padre Pio's healings, one of the most remarkable may have been a blind girl from the Palermo area named Gemma DiGiorgio. "I had no pupils in my eyes," said Gemma in 1971, several years after Padre Pio's death. "I had no sight at all. When I was three months old, my mother took me to a very famous eye doctor in Palermo. He told her that, without pupils, I would never be able to see."

Some claimed that she may have had pupils, but that her birth defect was so severe they were not recognized as such. Whatever the case, in 1946, when the girl was seven, a nun took it upon herself to write Padre Pio on her behalf and received a note saying that the girl should be brought to Padre Pio in San Giovanni Rotundo. That's exactly what Gemma's grandmother did: brought the girl to see the famous monk, who heard the child's first Confession and gave her first Communion -- then made the sign of the Cross on her eyes.

After the blessing, Gemma was able to see. It's a fact that is beyond question, confirmed by amazed doctors. Did she really lack pupils? Or was her entire eye one large pupil (making it seem that way)? We know only that there was a severe defect and that although the physical defect remained unchanged, afterward Gemma was able to see normally.

More astounding still may be the thoroughly-documented cure of a construction worker named Giovanni Savino, who was severely injured on February 15, 1949, in a dynamite mishap. When Dr. Guglielmo Sanguinetti, a physican, and Padre Raffaele, another Capuchin, and Father Dominic Meyer rushed to the injured man's side, "all three men noted that among Savino's numerous injuries, his right eye was gone entirely. They agreed that 'the socket was empty,'" reports biographer Bernard Ruffin in Padre Pio: The True Story.

Other doctors confirmed that the eye was completely annihilated and the other one badly damaged.

It looked like Savino was also going to be totally blind.

For three days the worker lay on a hospital bed with his head and face bandaged. When a surgeon entered the room three days later, Savino reported that Padre Pio had visited him -- something Savino recognized because he had detected the beautiful aroma so often reported around the priest.

A week later, at about one a.m. on February 25, 1949, Savino felt a slap on the right side of his face -- the side where the eye was completely gone.

"I asked, 'Who touched me?'" testified Savino. "There was nobody. Again I smelled the aroma of Padre Pio. It was beautiful."

When later the ophthalmologist -- an atheist -- came to examine the remaining eye, there was shock. "To their amazement," writes Ruffin, "the doctors found that his shattered face was fully healed and covered with new skin. Savino, however, was most delighted at the fact that he could see. 'I can see you!' he said excitedly to the eye specialist."

And indeed, as is medically documented, the doctor saw to his 'utter astonishment" that Savino had his right eye back. Somehow, the eye had materialized. ("Now I believe too," exclaimed the doctor, "because of what my own hands have touched!")

The above is an example of part of the body that was totally gone, that was brought back.

Those were just two examples of healings, here is a link to miracles. Remember miracles are not always in the form of healings, and there have been many which have not been documented as well.

The peasants of San Giovanni Rotondo fondly remember the following event. In spring, the almond trees were blossoming and they were promising a good harvest. But unfortunately millions of voracious caterpillars arrived and devoured the leaves and flowers. They did not spare even the shell. After two days of trying to stop that infestation, the peasants, for whom the almonds were the only economic resource - decided to speak to Father Pio about the problem. Father Pio looked at the trees from the window of the convent and decided to bless them. He put on the sacred vestments and started to pray. When he finished praying he took the holy water and made the sign of the Cross in the air, in the direction of the trees. The next day, the caterpillars had disappeared but the almond trees looked like sticks. It was a disaster: the harvest had been lost. What happened next is incredible! We had the most abundant harvest; a harvest like we had never seen before, but how is it possible that trees without flowers could produce fruits? How was it possible to have fruit from trees that looked like sticks? Scientists have never been able to give any reason for this phenomenon.

Close to 600 healings have been documented through Medjugorje

http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/si ... lings.html

There is more, but I have to go. I will look up more later.

Also there was the young man who signed onto this board that was diagnosed with some form of cancer. One of his t-shirts was brought to the tomb of St Pio in San Giovanni Rotondo and prayers were said on his behalf to Jesus through the intercession of Saint Pio. He was cured from the cancer. I wish he would have given us more details, but it is in a post on this board.

humphreys wrote:You could also try Denmark, Norway or Sweden. All primarily atheist nations who are doing pretty damn well for themselves with their nice standard of living and low crime rates.

Like some other Americans I think greeney equates the USA with the world and is largely unaware of what people think outside of it.

You're welcome here though but you might need to find an English woman to marry for imigration purposes!

Maybe I'll try a UK dating website.

OraProNobis wrote:We know only that he has been a fantastic intercessor -- stories of his miracles, both during and subsequent to his death, are absolutely legion -- and after his canonization, that intercession will grow. Of all Padre Pio's healings, one of the most remarkable may have been a blind girl from the Palermo area named Gemma DiGiorgio.

Obviously we can't properly address multiple examples, so let's take a look at the first one.

From looking into this case and doing some digging, it seems like she had aniridia, rather than missing pupils.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniridia

If you read here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8bfy ... io&f=false

That doctor you say stated she was blind, actually said "she was not born blind, her vision was uncertain".

Already this is looking less spectacular than at first glance, agreed?

It's a little hard to delve any deeper than that as there is very little documentation on what actually happened.

humphreys wrote:

OraProNobis wrote:We know only that he has been a fantastic intercessor -- stories of his miracles, both during and subsequent to his death, are absolutely legion -- and after his canonization, that intercession will grow. Of all Padre Pio's healings, one of the most remarkable may have been a blind girl from the Palermo area named Gemma DiGiorgio.

Obviously we can't properly address multiple examples, so let's take a look at the first one.

From looking into this case and doing some digging, it seems like she had aniridia, rather than missing pupils.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniridia

If you read here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8bfy ... io&f=false

That doctor you say stated she was blind, actually said "she was not born blind, her vision was uncertain".

Already this is looking less spectacular than at first glance, agreed?

It's a little hard to delve any deeper than that as there is very little documentation on what actually happened.

Duuuh, the story says that she may have had pupils..?? so what is your argument, that she wasn't given her sight?

and what about the other stories? The man who was witnessed by a doctor,and others to have been missing a whole eyeball, and after feeling the presence of Padre Pio as well as the scent that often accompanied miracles done through his intercession, the whole eyeball was restored ?

You argument is flimsy at best Humphreys, and you try to "intellectually" debate by stating something that is already in the original story.

That also doesn't explain the miracle of the infested crops saved through prayer,that scientists had no explanation for .

I think that you are more than in denial of the proof God has given us of His existence . I think there is something much deeper at play in your life, that you are withholding from us.

I really hope I am wrong about that, but my intuition tells me you know full well which side you are "working" for, and it is a conscious choice on your behalf.

Like I said, I hope I am wrong about that .

Jesus will triumph in the end. Amen.

I know this is going to fall on deaf ears but...even if these so-called "miracles" were true, what makes you think it's the "Biblical God" doing them? Seems rather contradictory that such an evil "God," which was supposedly responsible for so much death and destruction of so many innocent lives (whom is also an advocate of slavery and bashing children's heads against rocks), would be parading around helping people.

OraProNobis wrote:Duuuh, the story says that she may have had pupils..?? so what is your argument, that she wasn't given her sight?

I don't know, details are greatly lacking.

It seems her condition may have been exaggerated as to how bad it was, as well as exaggerated how good her sight was after the "miracle". It's really hard to tell on so little data about an event that happened a long time ago.

Like EH said, even if we accept these as miracles, why assume God is responsible, rather than an amazing case of the placebo affect, or Padre Pio being a psychic healer, or *insert other paranormal explanation here*.

As far as me repeating something already mentioned in the article, the first line has Gemma stating she had no pupils, I was just pointing out why this is probably a completely false statement which brings into some doubt the accuracy of others.

OraProNobis wrote:and what about the other stories? The man who was witnessed by a doctor,and others to have been missing a whole eyeball, and after feeling the presence of Padre Pio as well as the scent that often accompanied miracles done through his intercession, the whole eyeball was restored ?

I clearly said I was going to address one at a time, and obviously I cannot address every claim of a miracle ever made

You should take one case you assume to be a good one and delve as deeply as you can in order to get to the truth of it. What believers do is take about 1000 cases/claims, briefly read the minor details, and then blindly assume they are legit and accurate miracles. They think that the accumulation of flimsy evidence adds up to a strong case but that is just wrong. If all of these cases are dubious then you have a dubious case overall.

The second case you mention is that of Giovanni Savino. Now, I've looked on google and I can't find much of anything on it at all. Such an astounding miracle supposedly but details are majorly lacking. There is not even a wiki entry on him.

Am I supposed to simply accept on faith that this happened as claimed?

Seriously, do a google search on "Giovanni Savino" and see how little comes up. You are asking me to accept extraordinary claims with very little supporting evidence.

The world is full of claims of amazing things, be it ghosts, psychics, mermaids, sea monsters, and so on, but actually nailing down these claims and verifying they are correct is usually an impossible task, so we are forced to either accept them on faith or accept that they are inconclusive. These examples are inconclusive.

For instance:

"Other doctors confirmed that the eye was completely annihilated and the other one badly damaged."

Which doctors? What did they say? Is this on record?

These cases read like something out of a tabloid newspaper or The Weekly World News.

I really hope I am wrong about that, but my intuition tells me you know full well which side you are "working" for, and it is a conscious choice on your behalf.

Oh, cut the crap please.

This is so ridiculous. What a great example of sensationalism, tabloid newspaper style.

Read a different account of the story and notice many key differences in this report to the one you just posted:

http://www.miraclesofthesaints.com/2010 ... aints.html

It seems like the eye wasn't even reported as being gone completely in the second report, but "completely gone" as in lost. Later it says the eye was pulped into a bloody jelly.

Also, only his right eye healed, the left continued to not function.

Looking at this with the limited and ridiculously poor standard of data we have, it seems likely the eye was not gone at all, but just badly damaged. The doctors made a faulty assessment that it was beyond working again, and they were wrong, it healed of its own accord.

Seriously though, the quality of this evidence is simply appalling.

I have stopped seacrhing now. There is no documentation I can find to verify the Giovanni Savino case. It only appears in about 3 places I can find, and they all tell a tabloid style story, all differing in key details, and all lacking in verification.

You will find the same when you delve into any of these so-called miracles.

No before and after pictures, no actual quotes from demonstrably real doctors, we are simply supposed to accept the story as true and accurate without any real good reason to.

I call BS on it.

I will leave you the words of Micheal Grosso P.hD, who is actually a believer AFAIK:

"many stories, if true, imply a radically higher type of healing. For example, there is the account of Vera Calandra’s dying child materialising a new bladder; of Gemma di Giorgio’s pupilless blind eyes being made to see; and of Giovanni Savino’s blown out eye (due to a dynamite accident) being rematerialised. So far, however, the medical documentation I’ve seen for these claims is less than compelling.

My thoughts exactly! These stories can not even convince believers.