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The Bible ~ spiritually inspired?

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Postby shadowcass » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:19 am

The problem with the "Bible" of course, is that it is a (mostly arbitrary) collection of books that have little or no relation to each other. This is especially so when we try to stuff Christianity in on top of Orthodox Judaism. They don't actually fit too well together.

To understand Christianity we need to understand the Apostle Paul---whose thinking and writing is the basis for this religion. Indeed, it would not be too much to say that, after Jesus he is THE most important figure in the New Testament.

“Saul of Tarsus” is the name he is using when we first encounter him (in the book of the ACTS OF THE APOSTLES). He is zealous in his persecution of the followers of Jesus of Nazareth. We join him at the beginning of the 8th chapter (Stephen has just been stoned to death):

“And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

2And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

3As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.”

We lose track of Saul for awhile but rejoin him at the beginning of the ninth chapter:

“And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

21But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

22But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.”

**************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Now, let’s pause for a minute and think about this. Jesus has already been crucified. He comes BACK specifically to get THIS man and make him an Apostle. This is very important. After the Crucifixion the Apostles would VOTE on who to add to the Council of the Apostles “And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.” Acts 1:26

But JESUS selects Paul.

Why? Why was THIS MAN so important that Jesus had to come down from Heaven to get him?

Because he was going to be Jesus’ Chosen Apostle to the goyim. Those who were NOT Jews.

So who IS this “Saul” or “Paul?”

First of all he is a Roman Citizen. That means more than you might think. Just because you happened to live in a country that was under the occupation of Rome didn’t make you a Roman citizen. (Well, not until 212 AD when the Emperor Caracalla extended citizenship to everyone who was not a child of slaves). But you can read more about Roman Citizenship by clicking here, if it interests you.

Now, what else do we know about Paul?

We know he was well-educated. He was well-versed in the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle (one can tell that from his writings) so the probability IS that his parents were both Roman Citizens themselves and that his father was at least of the patrician class.

And this is overwhelmingly important.

Why? Because people who are unaware of this miss the dichotomy inherent in his epistles.

Paul puts a division between the body and the soul and teaches that God will not hold Christians accountable for the deeds of their body.

“14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”

Romans Chapter 7.

Romans 8:

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. “

And again: “1And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.”

Romans 8: 10

He is saying here that the body sins because it WILL sin. But if the Christian yearns after (loves, has faith in) Christ then not only will his SPIRIT (soul) will LIVE but that he will be given a new and perfect body after the resurrection.



1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”

---Romans Chapter 4.

THIS is the teaching of Paul, the Apostle Christ chose especially to minister to those who were not Jews.

It would probably be a good thing if those “shoot for Jesus hit-men” (and women) who stand at the pulpits today browbeating their flock and condemning “the lusts of the flesh” would hear him.

But they have no ears to hear.

Now you have probably all heard this famous passage quoted at some time or other:

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

---First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians.

Sixth Chapter. Verses 9-12.

And it seems to say the exact opposite of what he was saying in his Epistle to the Romans (and if he really WERE that would put paid to the conceit that the Bible never contradicts itself),

But he isn’t. Unlike many of our more modern translators, the men who translated the King James Bible were scrupulously honest. When they changed a word they let you know by putting that word in italics.

In verse 11 the word in italics is were. Why? Because Paul wrote “And such ARE some of you: but ye are washed….”

But that didn’t make sense to the King James translators. “The word CAN’T be ‘are’,” they said. “He MUST have meant ‘were’. ‘Even Jove nods, you know,’” and they all had a good academic chuckle.

But they didn’t understand Paul any better than the most fundamental of fundamentalist preachers. If they HAD they would have understood why the word was “are.”

And YOU would have understood why I say there IS spiritual inspiration to be found here.
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Postby humphreys » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:08 am

shadowcass wrote:Spoken in true CSICOP style. If you can't attack the data attack the man. Yet the late John Mack is not the only psychiatrist or psychologist who considers the Abduction Phenomenon to have a basis in reality.


So?

For every one who believes it, I'll find you ten who don't.

shadowcass wrote:The real problem for those who wish to debunk all those who recount these experiences from the late Philip Klass to Joe Nickell and Susan Clancy is that they know nothing about the subject.


Spoken in true believer style. If anyone disagrees, they must not know anything about it, seeing as it so obviously true that we're being molested by aliens in our sleep.

I have a different take on it.

You have a strong desire to believe, as did Mack, and he let that need, as well as the strong belief of his clients, cloud his judgement.

shadowcass wrote:During abduction events, abductees are missing from their normal environments. Police have been called, search parties have been sent out, parents have frantically searched for their children, etc. When people remember abductions, they sometimes return with marks on their bodies – not just any marks, but with seemingly impossible fully formed scars. They sometimes return with broken bones and they have no idea how they happened. Sometimes people return with unusual stains on their clothes that were not there before the abduction. Attempts to discover the nature of these stains have been unsuccessful. They return with their clothes on backwards, and/or inside out. They return wearing someone else’s clothes. When people are abducted, they are often abducted with others who can confirm the details of their abduction, as with Barney and Betty Hill.


The problem here is, you cannot use the vast number of cases and their individual factors to make a general case about the reality of alien abductions, otherwise your judgement will be skewed.

Most of those things you mention are rare. The average case is someone claiming to be abducted in his sleep. There are no witnesses, and no marks that could not have already been there, or caused by trauma during sleep.

There are more exceptional cases, but they must each be investigated individually to assess the reality and reliablity of each particular piece of evidence. When you take a case individually and investigate it, you will often find that each special factor, like witnesses, or a person reported missing, can be explained. Many of the implants are not implants at all, there are, of course, going to be frauds, that's undeniable, some of these people will actually be crazy, some will have been drugged and abused, for instance, the list goes on, but we cannot make blanket statements about the whole field in general like you have and expect it to be convincing.

In my experience, the people at CSICOP et al are very, very knowledgable on the subject, as they would have to be, and they are coming to different conclusions to you.

shadowcass wrote:Often it is family members, but there are instances when friends or bystanders witness the abduction as well. People are abducted while fully awake, driving a car, gardening, and so forth.


And there are cases on record where more than one person claims to have seen a Mermaid, and a vast number of similar accounts of leprechauns and fairies.

Do you believe in all those too?

shadowcass wrote:None of the debunkers have yet to manage satisfactory explanations for these things. Mostly they ignore them because these facts do not fit their pat little explanations.


Well, it's extremely difficult to perfectly piece together even the simplest events after the fact when you were not present, but the debunkers do a good job, for the most part.

shadowcass wrote:The thing is---if your explanation doesn't explain the facts ALL of the facts---you have the wrong explanation.


Nonsense.

shadowcass wrote:And, with that, I'd like to get back to a discussion of the Bible if we could. Since that was what this forum was supposed to be about.


I don't believe I mentioned alien abductions first.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby rath » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:11 am

you should both watch the movie ........... the forth kind.
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Postby shadowcass » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:40 pm

You misjudge me, my friend. I have NO desire to believe. Nor to disbelieve. I go where the data takes me. I don't pick the data I CAN explain and just ignore all the data that doesn't fit my explanation the way these (falsely so-called) skeptics do.

I have never once said that the answer is that people are being abducted by extraterrestrials---much less that they are being "molested" by extraterrestrials the stories they tell are less about "molestation" than about being specimens in some sort of scientific study---much like the "abduction tale" a porpoise who has been examined and tagged and released might tell...or a grizzly bear).

Neither am I ready, yet, to say categorically that it CANNOT happen and IS NOT happening. I remain open to the possibilities.

The same as I do with people who claim to have seen Bigfoot and similar crptozoological creatures. After all, prehistoric beasties are being caught all the time http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... -film.html

And then the mean men come and want to take away our Triceratops.
(sigh)
Such is life. But I see we have been talking at cross-purposes if you think I NEED to believe. Let me introduce myself: http://shadowcass.wordpress.com/2010/07 ... ussedness/

postscript: THE FOURTH KIND is garbage. It was NOT based on any "True story" of abductions it was fiction.
I was one of the first to point this out before the movie was even released.

http://www.getthebigpicture.net/blog/20 ... ories.html

re: mermaids...no...but if you have a merMAN that looks like Brad Pitt get back to me.
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Postby humphreys » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:09 pm

No one is ignoring what they cannot explain. Lack of a complete naturalistic explanation based on an incomplete set of information and limited resources is not grounds for declaring belief in the paranormal, in of itself.

I'm not sure if that makes sense. To clarify, the fact we may not be able to explain everything about a reported paranormal phenomena without resorting to a supernatural agent of some kind, is not enough reason to assume the event is inexplicable, and to declare the existence of the paranormal.

There would have to be good grounds for assuming there is no possible natural explanation in order to jump to that kind of conclusion.

I have a feeling you are the kind of person who says "well the skeptics failed to fully explain this particular reported phenomena, therefore, they have failed entirely, and that must be proof of the supernatural".
Last edited by humphreys on Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby shadowcass » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:14 pm

My friend...there is plenty of data available...refusing to look at it because it contradicts what one thinks they know is not science.
It's theology.

;)
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Postby humphreys » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:18 pm

Again, no one is refusing to look at the data because it contradicts what they think they know.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby humphreys » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:21 pm

How many times throughout history have humans falsely jumped to supernatural conclusions based on their inability to explain it naturalistically at that time?
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby at1with0 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:33 pm

I define nature to be all-encompassing and therefore there is nothing that is supernatural. Unordinary, yes..but not supernatural.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
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Postby shadowcass » Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:51 pm

And how many times has SCIENCE been wrong?

One loses track, really. But you can wander over here:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sandy-andr ... n-friedman

and listen to some of them.
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