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The Bible ~ spiritually inspired?

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Postby Halfabo » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:28 pm

rath wrote:Catch up.

I know about Ur ....... i posted it on the OLD Blackvault ........ Ur is the city that the Flood &
noah's ark is based on.


Actually, it's not but, that is for a different discussion.


halfabo wrote:As for Nebuchadnezzar, Moses lived at least 600 years before Nebuchadnezzar. The Jewish religion was well established before Nebuchadnezzar was ever born.

rath wrote:How do you work that out ????

Moses was said to be born around 1526.BC.

Hammurabi was the sixth king of Babylon from 1792 BC to 1750 BC middle chronology
(1728 BC – 1686 BC)

That's 500 years BEFORE Moses, & his story's.


???? You're not making any sense here. What does Hammurabi have to do with Moses living six hundred years before Nebuchadnezzar? Moses wrote down all that had been passed down to him from the time of Abraham. While Abraham lived at the time of Hammurabi, Abraham rejected the plurality of gods that Hammurabi believed in. Your arguments are not making any sense.

rath wrote:Akhenaten, Forced the people & slaves of Egypt to worship only ONE GOD & no other, (RA)
He is also the farther of Tutankhamun.


Akhenatan died 1336 BC or 1334 BC, since Moses lived between 1300 and 1150 B.C. they may or may not have been contemporaries. Even if they were contemporaries or if Moses lived after Akhenatan, that still does not imply that monotheism originated with the Egyptians. Joseph, and the rest of Israel entered Egypt four hundred years before Akhenatan was born. They brought with them their monotheistic religion from the start. The majority of modern scholars date Joseph to the Second Intermediate Period of Egyptian history, ca. 1786-1570 BC. You also have to remember that while Akhenatan did enforce the worship of one god, Ra, as soon as he died all the other gods were worshiped once again.

An interesting side note is that if they were contemporaries and Akhenatan was the father of Tut, it is an interesting "coincidence" that Tut died so young. Especially when one of the plagues brought against Egypt was the death of every first born. And according to the Bible, the Pharaoh's first born son died during that plague.


rath wrote:Kings 6:1, which states that the Exodus occurred 480 years before the construction of Solomon's Temple. Equating the biblical chronology with dates in history is notoriously difficult, but Edwin Thiele's widely accepted reconciliation of the reigns of the Israelite and Judahite kings would imply an Exodus around 1450 BC, during the reign of Pharaoh Thutmose III (1479-1425 BC).[30] By the mid-20th century it had become apparent that the archaeological record made this date impossible. The mummy of Thutmoses III had already been discovered in 1881,[31] and Egyptian records of that period do not mention the expulsion of any group that could be identified with over 2 million Hebrew slaves, nor any events which could be identified with the Biblical plagues. In addition, digs in the 1930s had failed to find traces of the simultaneous destruction of Canaanite cities c.1400 BC - in fact many of them, including Jericho, the first Canaanite city to fall to the Israelites according to the Book of Joshua, were uninhabited at the time. The mounting lack of evidence led William F. Albright, the leading biblical archaeologist of the period, to propose an alternative, "late" Exodus around 1200-1250 BC


While this is interesting it is irrelevant to the conversation. It is also disputed among archaeologists. According to many archaeologists, the ruins of Jerico show evidence that the Biblical account is accurate. Most who disagree with that conclusion have refused to look at the evidence and have reached their conclusion through ignorance.

rath wrote:Nebuchadnezzar I was the king of the Babylonian Empire from about 1125 B.C.E. to 1103 B.C.E. He is considered to be the greatest king of the Dynasty of Pashe (also known as the second Isin dynasty), a line which held the Babylonian throne through 12th century BC. His greatest success was re-establishing the Babylonian lands by driving out the Elamite invaders who had taken over much of the territory. He then proceeded to push out and solidify his borders, locking Babylon into a conflict with the Assyrians. He is not to be confused with the more well-known Nebuchadnezzar II of biblical fame.



Nebuchadnezzar II (c 634 – 562 BC) was king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire, who reigned c. 605 BC – 562 BC. According to the Bible, he conquered Judah and Jerusalem, and sent the Jews into exile. He is credited with the construction of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon

He is featured in the Book of Daniel and is also mentioned in several other books of the Bible & the Torah.


Still, he had nothing to do with monotheism in Israel. Since they had no contact with Nebuchadnezzar I, and their religion was fully established long before II was in the picture. I've noticed you are throwing in a lot of irrelevant material, are you trying to confuse the issue because you know you have no argument?


rath wrote:Akhenaten and Judeo-Christian monotheism

The idea of Akhenaten as the pioneer of a monotheistic religion that later became Judaism has been considered by various scholars.[40][41][42][43][44][45] One of the first to mention this was Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis, in his book Moses and Monotheism.[46] Freud argued that Moses had been an Atenist priest forced to leave Egypt with his followers after Akhenaten's death. Freud argued that Akhenaten was striving to promote monotheism, something that the biblical Moses was able to achieve.[40] Following his book, the concept entered popular consciousness and serious research.

Other scholars and mainstream Egyptologists point out that there are direct connections between early Judaism and other Semitic religious traditions.[47] They also state that two of the three principal Judaic terms for God, Yahweh, Elohim (morphologically plural), and Adonai (meaning "our lord", also morphologically plural) have no connection to Aten. Freud commented on the connection between Adonai, the Egyptian Aten and the Syrian divine name of Adonis as a primeval unity of language between the factions;[40] in this he was following the argument of Egyptologist Arthur Weigall, but the argument was groundless as 'Aten' and 'Adonai' are not, in fact, linguistically related.[48]

Akhenaten appears in history almost two-centuries prior to the first archaeological and written evidence for Judaism and Israelite culture is found in the Levant. Abundant visual imagery of the Aten disk was central to Atenism, which celebrated the natural world, while such imagery is not a feature of early Israelite culture.[49] Although pottery found throughout Judea dated to the end of the 8th century BC has seals resembling a winged sun disk burned on their handles, presumedly thought to be the royal seal of the Judean Kingdom.[50]

Ahmed Osman has claimed that Akhenaten's maternal grandfather Yuya was the same person as the Biblical Joseph.


"One of the first to mention this was Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis"

Oh, come now. Are you going to take your historical references from the likes of Freud? Most people won't even use him as a reference for psychology any more.

rath wrote:Moses was said to be born around 1526.BC.

But the FACT is ......

Unlike, Nebuchadnezzar, Akhenaten ......... There is NO PROOF that Moses was even real.


I was expecting this one. You find someone you don't like in history and, "that person didn't exist." Convenient isn't it, to be able to just reject what you disagree with.

rath wrote:The Exodus

The earliest non-biblical account of the Exodus is by Hecataeus of Abdera (late 4th century BCE): the Egyptians blame a plague on foreigners and expel them from the country; Moses, their leader, takes them to Canaan, where he founds the city of Jerusalem.[41] More than a dozen later stories repeat the same basic theme, most of them with a marked anti-Jewish tendency.[41] The best-known is that by the Egyptian historian Manetho (3rd century BCE), quoted by the 1st century AD Jewish historian Josephus in two passages. In the first Manetho describes the Hyksos, their lowly origins in Asia, their dominion over and expulsion from Egypt, and, according to Josephus, their subsequent foundation of the city of Jerusalem and its temple. Josephus (not Manetho) identifies the Hyksos with the Jews.[42] Josephus later quotes a second story from Manetho which tells how 80,000 lepers and other "impure people," led by a priest named Osarseph, join forces with the former Hyksos, now living in Jerusalem, to take over Egypt. They wreak havoc until eventually the pharaoh and his son chase them out to the borders of Syria, where Osarseph gives the lepers a law-code and changes his name to Moses


This is also irrelevant. From you own article, "more than a dozen LATER stories" Later stories, whether fact or fiction, when based on an earlier original, does not invalidate the original, no matter how much you would like it to.



You really should find a better source for information. Wiki is notorious for inaccuracy.
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Postby frrostedman » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:41 pm

Halfabo wrote:
rath wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus


You really should find a better source for information. Wiki is notorious for inaccuracy.


I find the whole thing really hypocritical.

Rath, you unceasingly depict wikipedia as an inaccurate source--so pathetically inaccurate "a 12 year old probably writes the articles." You also attack it as a pro-US propaganda resource, full of lies and deceit.

I'm wondering why you would use it as a reference to augment your own arguments.
"But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about Jesus being a great teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." C.S. Lewis
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Postby Halfabo » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:57 pm

frrostedman wrote:
Halfabo wrote:
rath wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus


You really should find a better source for information. Wiki is notorious for inaccuracy.


I find the whole thing really hypocritical.

Rath, you unceasingly depict wikipedia as an inaccurate source--so pathetically inaccurate "a 12 year old probably writes the articles." You also attack it as a pro-US propaganda resource, full of lies and deceit.

I'm wondering why you would use it as a reference to augment your own arguments.


I wouldn't be surprised if his next wiki article claims that monotheism began in Australia. :lol:
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Postby shadowcass » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:34 pm

Thanks for the welcome, Sandra.

Now, let's return to our muttons:

The question was, I believe "Is the Bible Spiritually Inspired?" Not "Is it historically accurate?" or "Where and when do archaeologists think it originated?"

So let me give y'all my tuppence on it (as it happens I just did a blog entry about it over at my Wordpress Blog so I'll just save time and tell you what I wrote THERE if that's okay):

"People have asked me if I think that THE HOLY BIBLE is “the revealed, inerrant, Word of God.”

(Now, when I speak of the Bible please remember that I am speaking of the CHRISTIAN Bible with its Old and New Testaments—not the original HEBREW Bible).

I’ll answer that.

No.

Not really.

This usually satisfies most of them who then nod their heads sapiently and wander off feeling justified.

Had they gone on to ask me if I thought that the Word of God could be found IN it they might have been less delighted.

Because I do.

Definitely.

And I’ll go even farther and say that I think God had a lot to do with the way it was put together.

Oh you can talk all you want to about the “Church Fathers” and the Emperor Constantine, and the Council of this and the Council of that where men decided which books to include and which to leave out.

Doesn’t matter.

I think God’s hand was over all.

I think that because I have discerned that there’s a trap built into the Bible as it has been given to mankind.

It’s a very OBVIOUS trap.

Yet it’s almost SUPERNATURAL in nature.

It is this:

You get from the Bible whatever you seek IN it.

IF one comes to the Bible seeking to know the Power Behind All Things and how to commune with Him/Her/It you can find that.

If, on the other hand, you come seeking justification for your greed and your prejudice and your hate—you can find that too.

It’s as if the Bible had been designed to function as both a guide and a judge of the people who read it.

As I was telling my friend, Happy Flower, the Old Testament (which was all Saul of Tarsus had to go by) does NOT support any concept of “Freedom of Religion”. Indeed, you find page after page in the Torah (the Five Books ascribed to Moses) where God orders his chosen people to wipe out whole nations—every man, woman, and child—because they worshipped a different deity.

“Well, how about the New Testament? Does THAT support the idea of ‘Freedom of Religion?’” you ask.

In a way—yes.

In the 14th Chapter of his Epistle to the Romans Paul says this:

“Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarrelling over opinions. 2Some believe in eating anything, while the weak eat only vegetables. 3Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat; for God has welcomed them. 4Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord* is able to make them stand.

5 Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. 6Those who observe the day, observe it in honor of the Lord. Also those who eat, eat in honor of the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God.

7 We do not live to ourselves, and we do not die to ourselves. 8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister?* Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written,
‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.’
12So then, each of us will be accountable to God.

Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling-block or hindrance in the way of another.* 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15If your brother or sister is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died. 16So do not let your good be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18The one who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and has human approval. 19Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual edification. 20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for you to make others fall by what you eat; 21it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother or sister* stumble.* 22The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God. Blessed are those who have no reason to condemn themselves because of what they approve. 23But those who have doubts are condemned if they eat, because they do not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.”

(New Revised Standard Version).

I can already hear the nay-sayers and the noisy negativists saying “But Shadowcass…Paul is talking about different Sectarian approaches to the One True God—not about different religions.”

Perhaps he was, but don’t you see that the same principle still applies? By whatever NAME they may call upon “The Prime Mover”, “God,” the “that which is behind all that” if they are truly seeking communion with Him or Her or It do you think that God fails to respond?

Be assured, my friends, God sees the HEART of the Seeker and as we know: “‘Ask, and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.” Matthew 7:7."


So, that's what I said.
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Postby frrostedman » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:45 pm

Welcome shadowcass


So, if you think that God's hand was behind the bible, why would you then believe God would allow any of the Scriptures not to be His word. In fact, isn't it wholly His word since as you suggest, He decided what would be in it and what would not?
"But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about Jesus being a great teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." C.S. Lewis
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Postby shadowcass » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:39 am

I'm sorry, Frosted---I thought that would be clear from my answer. But let me begin my explaining where I am coming from when I discuss these things.

I am not interested in whether the Bible is inspired or not inspired. No more than I am interested in whether the Koran, or the Bhagavad-Gita, or the Popul-Vuh, or ANY other of the texts humans have regarded as inspired really were or WEREN'T.

The question is really if, by practicing a discipline or applying a certain symbolic system, do human beings make contact with something OUTSIDE themselves. Call it God, the Prime Mover, the Force, or (as David Bohm called it) "the Player on the other side."

And the answer with ALL these "scriptures" seems to be yes.

I don't know if you've studied, ever, the life of Sri Ramakrishna. But here was a man who lived in the 19th Century, who worshipped Kali, the Divine Mother. but who showed us that using the symbols (archetypes) of ANY religious system (be it Christian, Islamic, WHATEVER) he would achieve Samadhi.

If you get a chance you should pick up a copy of the book THE GOSPEL OF SRI RAMAKRISHNA---I suppose your local library would have it, Amazon.com certainly has it (I just looked) and it is available to read on-line at http://www.belurmath.org/gospel/ free of charge.


But back to your question: I SUSPECT (of course, I cannot KNOW---since I am not God) the reason God allowed it to be put together the way it was is because humans must have free will. If you come to the Bible (or any other of these traditionally sacred texts) seeeking God the "human" components won't distract you. But if you come seeking justification for your own darker impulses the "divine" components won't prevent you---indeed, you probably won't even notice them.

The choice is YOURS...


I hope I have answered your question...if not feel free to request clarification.
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Postby humphreys » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:09 am

Hahaha cracking up at the thought of Frrostedman reading that book :lol:
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby shadowcass » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:13 am

Let me put in this addendum to my response to Frosted if I may:

There are many religious systems one can choose from, this we know.
There is Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and so forth and so on.
And people ask (especially people raised in the West ask this) "Which is the TRUE one?"
But I don't think that's the right question.
I think it's rather more like the choice between the Mac and the PC. :lol:

I know, that sounds silly but think about it. BOTH are perfectly good computers. We tend to buy the one that is the most "user friendly" to US. In other words, the computer you USE is the one that fits most closely with the way your mind and personality interact with it.
Each are "inspired creations" (in a sense) and each have their fanatical devotees.
But both will get you where you want to go (in this case the forum at the Black Vault).

Or it is like the browser you use. Some swear by Google Chrome, others by IE 8, still others by Firefox or some other. But all of them WORK.

The coding is a bit different in each just as the symbols in each religious system vary but whatever system you CHOOSE...whatever software you choose...will be the one that is the most "user friendly" for YOU.

ALL will get you where you want to go if you follow the sytem (the coding) out.

Or so the testimony of those whu HAVE DONE IT indicates.

Of course, you can ignore that testimony just as scientists ignore those who laim to have witnessed UFOs or seen Bigfoot does...that is your privelege.

In line with some of this I will be uploading a dialogue between J. Krishnamurti and David Bohm to my files if I can figure out how to do it which some of you may find of interest. David Bohm, of course, was the man who posited the "Implicate Order".
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Postby humphreys » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:36 am

Actually, those religions are more like that malware anti-spyware software that installs itself on your machine without asking, and then warns you that have dozens of problems that need fixing, most of which were caused by the rogue software in the first place!

Atheists are like the legit ant-spyware software that clears out your corrupt files and fixes your machine...for a small monthly fee, of course, and you have to remember to keep us updated. Also, we might not fix all your problems at once, you may have to restart into safe-mode first, or maybe I'm stretching the analogy too far now.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby shadowcass » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:34 am

My dear Humphreys, atheists are like small children whistling in a graveyard to show they aren't afraid. I have no quarrel with an honest agnostic but atheism is just as much a matter of "belief" as any religion could possibly be.

"I believe that there is no God and Richard Dawkins is his prophet."

I mean, really. Atheists deny the existence of God (the Creator) yet over at Cerne they are busily proving that there MUST be a Creator. A whole troop of scientists are taking their giant atom smasher (okay, Large Hadron Collider) and attempting to create a mini-black hole in which Singularity can occur. And THIS is supposed to show us "The Beginning of all things." Yet the beginning is not the Singularity they may or may not glimpse--it is the scientists and the machine and the whole known universe and all of human history and....

(The "beginning" cannot be Singularity because in order to have Singularity there has to be a whole series of events that combine to CREATE Singularity. Now you can loop the process and have collapsing star, black hole, Singularity forming in the Core, then the Big Bang. You can follow the process from universe to universe in dimension after dimension but without positing "God" you cannot come to a FIRST CAUSE).

Now none of this says God must be as He is defined in any particular book...so one can be agnostic about any particular BRAND of religion that claims to be "ultimate truth" but as I have stated previously---the testimony of the experiencers is there to tell us that all of these systems connect them with Someone.
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