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Postby at1with0 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:37 am

frrostedman wrote:an eye for an eye applied to everyone, is the only way to go. Christ expects the Christian family to rise above all that and just forgive straight away.



My rationale is that criminals should be sequestered in prison for their crimes after they are forgiven not as punishment, but as a method to protect society from them. I am also against capital punishment as well as all punishment. I do not accept all Christian doctrine but the spirit of forgiveness and Matt 5:39 I do try to live. You can't simultaneously forgive someone and punish them; that's no way to teach.

This seems though to be connected to the spiritual war you mentioned. The root cause of crime is suffering, in my opinion. Suffering is a great threat to peace and love, perhaps the greatest threat. But if one is conditioned to accept suffering as a teacher, how in the hell can a person unlearn that and learn how to cope with life and not suffer so much, especially with all of the inequities present in society?

I can't see a world in which anything happens that isn't according to the plan. I just hope that the plan allows for something to give people a little hope themselves and ease their suffering, allowing them to feel and live peace and love.

Eventually, the system in which people's hands are cut off and eyes are plucked out for crimes they commit against their neighbor will completely fall apart because it perpetuates the root cause of crime. Jesus' wisdom in Matt 5:39 is expressed in act that endeavors to curtail suffering rather than promote it.
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Postby gudskepteacal » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:32 pm

i disagree: When thought of in the parent-child dynamic, it is possible even desirable for the parent to forgive the child yet impose some sort of punishment. In this way they are taught the (hopefully) altruistic morals and values that will serve them well as they emerge in the world. But you may have been thinking of harsher, more violent, punishment and I'm not quite sure what you mean by the phrase 'suffering as a teacher' so I would only add that, if one really wanted to be taught, wouldn't they somehow begin to learn from the harsh lessons and find a way to formulate a plan...? Granted, the world is full of dark and seemingly hopeless situations; ultra-rare are the ones who persevere and succeed. The calibration for the scales of equality would seem tricky indeed.
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Postby at1with0 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:53 pm

gudskepteacal wrote:i disagree: When thought of in the parent-child dynamic, it is possible even desirable for the parent to forgive the child yet impose some sort of punishment. In this way they are taught the (hopefully) altruistic morals and values that will serve them well as they emerge in the world. But you may have been thinking of harsher, more violent, punishment and I'm not quite sure what you mean by the phrase 'suffering as a teacher' so I would only add that, if one really wanted to be taught, wouldn't they somehow begin to learn from the harsh lessons and find a way to formulate a plan...? Granted, the world is full of dark and seemingly hopeless situations; ultra-rare are the ones who persevere and succeed. The calibration for the scales of equality would seem tricky indeed.


Why is it desirable that someone learns from punishment better than the wisdom to not repeat mistakes? What makes punishment desirable?
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Postby gudskepteacal » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:31 pm

Because, without consequences to actions, there would be lawlessness and anarchy? I'm unsure whether we're on the same page here, but, to be clear, do you believe the old adage 'spare the rod, spoil the child' is false?
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Postby frrostedman » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:29 pm

I once read a book on how to discipline children. The book advocated physical punishment, but, not the standard kind. No belts, whippings, or slaps. Instead the author said the best way to discipline a child is apply pressure to a nerve... sorta like the Spock hold... and to do so with your emotions very calm and do it just hard enough to get their attention... no major pain is necessary.

In order to support her case, the author (yes, it was a woman) described the scenario where you can place a frog in a pot of cool water. The frog is a happy camper in his water. Then, you can very slowly heat the water up. The frog, being cold-blooded, cannot detect the slow heating up of the water. The water can be brought all the way up to a boil and kill the frog, without it having a clue that it is in danger.

And so the author said, physical pain is not a bad thing, but instead it is a warning system to avoid whatever it is you are doing. Pain is a very good reminder and is very effective in discipline. Again, the author did not advocate an angry lashing out during the dispensing of pain. Only that pain should be used gently and calmly, as an instructional tool.

I was reminded of this book with the above conversation, which discusses the pros and cons of punishment.
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Postby at1with0 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:03 pm

gudskepteacal wrote:Because, without consequences to actions, there would be lawlessness and anarchy? I'm unsure whether we're on the same page here, but, to be clear, do you believe the old adage 'spare the rod, spoil the child' is false?


Nonsense.

It is not punishment that averts lawlessness and anarchy. Those who commit crimes against their fellow neighbor do need to be sequestered from society for society's protection but punishment by itself is not going to avert lawlessness and anarchy.

Using physical pain to coerce someone to jump through hoops is torture. Punishment a childish way to teach.

Finally, we are not children. Children of God is a misnomer: the person/God relationship is not that of infant/parent type; you can't read a parenting book and then expect it to reveal God's nature. The best teacher is often one's self. After all, the kingdom of God is within.
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Postby frrostedman » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:20 am

at1with0 wrote:Nonsense.

It is not punishment that averts lawlessness and anarchy. Those who commit crimes against their fellow neighbor do need to be sequestered from society for society's protection but punishment by itself is not going to avert lawlessness and anarchy.

Using physical pain to coerce someone to jump through hoops is torture. Punishment a childish way to teach.

Finally, we are not children. Children of God is a misnomer: the person/God relationship is not that of infant/parent type; you can't read a parenting book and then expect it to reveal God's nature. The best teacher is often one's self. After all, the kingdom of God is within.


Great. Then let's take get rid of the police. Let's take down all the speed limit signs and stop lights. And then let's watch everyone flourish and prosper as they govern themselves without fear of punishment.
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Postby at1with0 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:25 am

Punishment does not cause learning or behavior modification.

I believe that's why Jesus told us to turn the other cheek.
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Postby gudskepteacal » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:39 am

:eh:

Boy, you think you know someone...
What you are saying would mean that nobody ever wrote a hot check or stole from a store, got caught and did time in jail or prison, then, the next time they started to think about doing something like that again, the only thing that stopped them was the thought that it was wrong and they should be a better person and just not do it...the embarrassment and humiliation of being arrested and sent to jail and the punishment of being separated from their friends and family never entered into the equation, huh? I only have 2 cheeks: someone wops me upside one of them and I'm not adverse to forgive and give a second chance, smack me on the other one and, imo, they have to be dealt with. I believe there are many in the crime and punishment field who would agree with me. Would Jesus have us keep turning the other cheek? I dunno, you say yes, but I don't think Jesus meant for any of His followers to foolishly let anybody continually take advantage of them.

I do not disagree with frosty's topic starter and try daily to follow the serenity prayer. But still find myself occasionally distracted by stuff of no consequence or value in how I should be living for Christ. Stronger in the Word I must be in order to endure the trials and tribulation of the change that is coming. narrow is the path
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Postby humphreys » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:46 am

I would never deliberately hurt a child.

What kind of lesson is that? When someone does something you don't agree with you hurt them? Applying pressure to a child's nerves, totally unneccesary and pretty sick to boot, even if it isn't particularly painful. Warped behaviour indeed.

You'd be amazed, but it's even possible to teach animals good behaviour without physically hurting them! :shock:

I'm actually friends with my young son, it's incredible how far that can get you.
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