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simple question on gun control

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Postby Nigfis » Thu May 16, 2013 6:27 pm

I'm finding this subject fascinating, not being from a gun-owning society.
It seems to be about a 50/50 split too, those for or against.

It really does look like your government is coming after your guns.
The question to me though, is simple....
WEhy?

Why does a government want to disarm its population when gun-deaths aren't all that high compared to some stuff like driving and presumably, smoking?
Why do the police need all that armoured gear and enough hollow-points for six rounds for each of you?

What is it they know is coming?

The mighty USD is going under, isn't it? People are going to go hungry on a large scale in America.
They say a man will only watch his family starve for four meals in a row before he'll take up arms to fill their bellies any way he can.

Also, interestingly... All the gold is being bought up by the Chinese and Indonesians and the like and is headed East, amid rumours the figures don't tally down in good old Fort Knox.
One country with an almost obsessive love of gold is modern Germany. They own a whole lot of the stuff, second only to the US. They hold a fair slice of it in Fort Knox, and they want to see it to actually confirm its there, and blow me down if your folks didn't refuse! :naughty:
Why Germany Wants its Gold Back

Remember Rumsfeld, talking about some seriously unbalanced numbers just before 9/11?
I wonder if this is part what he was talking about?
Oooh! Here it is:
"On September 10, 2001, Donald Rumsfeld gave a speech at the Pentagon where he stated:
“According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 Trillion dollars in transactions.”

“The adversary is closer to home, it’s the Pentagon bureaucracy.”

“In fact, it could be said that it’s a matter of life and death.”




Why doesn't anyone ask Rumsfeld where the 2.3 TRILLION went?
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Postby greeney2 » Thu May 16, 2013 11:22 pm

I am curious is the UK Nigfis, what kind of guns can you own or buy, what kinds you can not buy or own, and the process to get them? Do you have gun shops or sporting goods places where you can buy them? What about ammuntion?
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Postby Nigfis » Fri May 17, 2013 1:56 am

I've never tried Greeney, but I believe that to own a shotgun, for instance, you'd have to be interviewed and background checked by the police. Own a lockable gun cabinet, and have a reason to own it. Competition sport, farmer for example.
You need another, explosives(?) license to then buy the black powder needed to make stuff go bang.

Rifles and handguns are a different matter. Rifles are incredibly difficult to buy since one mass-murder or another. Handguns not at all, I think. These rules even effect our own Olympic shooting teams. They have to go out of the country to practice. :D

I'll have to check:
Here: http://www.gundealer.net/rules.htm

There are still the occasional gun shops around. I have no idea how many, but it won't be a big number, as you can imagine.


So what are you going to do Greeney? Are you prepared to willingly hand over your guns if Obama (Or whomever) demands them? Do you think the government is likely to throttle the supply of gunpowder in order to control the number of potential shootings?
Have you still not lost all faith in the political system as a whole?
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Postby blackvault » Fri May 17, 2013 7:41 am

Nigfis wrote:So what are you going to do Greeney? Are you prepared to willingly hand over your guns if Obama (Or whomever) demands them? Do you think the government is likely to throttle the supply of gunpowder in order to control the number of potential shootings?
Have you still not lost all faith in the political system as a whole?


I know this was directed to my dad, but I thought I would chime in.

Although I think California Senator Dianne Feinstein, President Barack Obama and VP Joe Biden would love to get ALL the guns, it would never fly. Too many Americans, both on the right and the left, would NEVER support it. In my opinion - they will succeed in chiseling away the right to own from the top down. It started with fully automatic weapons on a federal level, and is now trickling down to include a lot of semi-automatic (AR-15 style) etc. They will continue to try and chisel away at those rights for years to come.

But they won't succeed. It would be a political party suicide to do a push like that, again, in my opinion.

I can't speak for greeney2, but for myself, no I haven't lost faith in our government, country or ideals. Are they tarnished because of the man in the White House now? Absolutely! Have they damaged the image of who WE are? Absolutely! But we aren't dead. The country's economy, image and self esteem so to speak will come back stronger than ever. We just need to get rid of the regime currently running it.
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Postby greeney2 » Fri May 17, 2013 4:21 pm

Obama just can not order guns gathered up with his powers. Thankfully this issue is built into our US Constitution, as one of our basic American rights. Just as several other of our freedoms are unconditionally guaranteed, like freedom of speech and religion, etc. In addition, the laws of search and siezure are defined, and require court orders to enter our homes, in search of clearly defined items, along with the probable cause to search for them. No President or any law enforcement authority has the legal power to just demand to search at random, and hope to find something illegal. They can not pound on my door, and demand to look and see if I have any guns, without a major violation of my Constitutional rights. It takes probable cause to get t a court order for any search and seizure. Do you have the same equivalent in the UK? Did the UK make your people hand in guns?

As far as the guns are concerned, millions of guns are owned and possessed dating back to times and periods, where they were not registered, so how would the government even propose collecting guns they do not even know we have. Those include guns that predate the current gun laws, prior to Dept. of Defense checks. Things like our forefathers, handing them down from generation to generation. They can not go house to house and demand to search, if there is no probably cause I have been breaking any laws to begin with, nor can they demand I produce something they have no knowledge I have.

No I am not willing under any circumstances to hand over any of my guns under the premise, I have not broken any laws with them, and they were all obtained legally, either by the legal purchase by myself with the checks, or by being handed down from times when those laws were non existent.

You seem to be somewhat oblivious to the concept in the UK, you must provide a "good reason" to your government to have a gun, and the "good reason" could be revocable as not suitable reason for them anytime in the future, they way your laws read. Or that you just provide an acceptable reason to even buy a gun, even if it is to just appreciate the craftsmanship, and admire it. To be honest, I am quite dumbfounded by your laws, considering England has been the target of many European wars, why your country would choose to disarm there citizens, who have come under attack from Germany on your soil. Why would the UK not want all of its citizens to have the right to protect themselves or have arms, in case you were invaded? Or just for home protection from anyone breaking into your homes. If the concept of having V-2 rockets raining down on you and being defenseless doesn't convince you, imagine a home invasion some night by armed drug addicts holding knives to your throat. No, I am not willing to give up my guns, when the police are at best 30 minutes to get here.

You did not really mention if hunting his a gun sport in you country. Do you have deer hunters? Other kinds of game, other than would be hunted by shotgun? Any need for a handgun in the country from Varmints, poisonous snakes, ranch/farm predator animals?
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Postby Halfabo » Sat May 18, 2013 11:03 am

Nigfis wrote:It really does look like your government is coming after your guns.
The question to me though, is simple....
WEhy?

Why does a government want to disarm its population when gun-deaths aren't all that high compared to some stuff like driving and presumably, smoking?
Why do the police need all that armoured gear and enough hollow-points for six rounds for each of you?

What is it they know is coming?



It is fairly common for governments to disarm citizens right before they start killing them. It happened in Nazi Germany, The Soviet Union and a lot of little countries where tyrants took control. It has happened so regularly over the last hundred years, it becomes obvious what their plans are before they implement them. The only governments that fear an armed populace is a government that can not be trusted.
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Postby frrostedman » Sat May 18, 2013 5:24 pm

Nigfis wrote:I'm finding this subject fascinating, not being from a gun-owning society.
It seems to be about a 50/50 split too, those for or against.

It's probably closer to 10/90 when it comes to outright gun ownership. The right to bear arms is baked into the cake that makes this country what it is. It seems like 50/50 to those on the outside because the radical vast minority that want guns taken away are being very outspoken about it. Their ideological opponents aren't speaking too loud right now because we don't see them as a real threat yet. All that has passed so far is stuff that I'll agree with: Required background checks.

At that state and city level, they are passing ridiculous laws, limiting the size of magazines and what not, and guess what. The strongest opposition to their gun control measures come from law enforcement itself. Colorado is proving to be a battleground state.

Colorado sheriffs planning lawsuit to block new gun laws
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Postby Wing-Zero » Sat May 18, 2013 6:06 pm

frrostedman wrote:
Nigfis wrote:I'm finding this subject fascinating, not being from a gun-owning society.
It seems to be about a 50/50 split too, those for or against.

It's probably closer to 10/90 when it comes to outright gun ownership. The right to bear arms is baked into the cake that makes this country what it is. It seems like 50/50 to those on the outside because the radical vast minority that want guns taken away are being very outspoken about it. Their ideological opponents aren't speaking too loud right now because we don't see them as a real threat yet. All that has passed so far is stuff that I'll agree with: Required background checks.

At that state and city level, they are passing ridiculous laws, limiting the size of magazines and what not, and guess what. The strongest opposition to their gun control measures come from law enforcement itself. Colorado is proving to be a battleground state.

Colorado sheriffs planning lawsuit to block new gun laws


It really depends. Most people are "in favor" of universal background checks (even though every state requires a background check BEFORE a purchase of a firearm is made via commercial dealer). Your 10/90 is more closely associated with "ASSHALT RAFFLES", as most aren't dumb enough (yet) to believe that if we banned those our crime rate would magically plummet. Rifles actually make up a very small number of the United States' homicide rate. In general, blunt objects are more commonly used, maliciously, than rifles of any kind. Guess we should ban "ASSHALT BONKAS", too.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... a-table-11
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Economics and diplomacy are methods of securing resources used by humans.

Securing resources is the one necessary behavior for all living things.

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Postby frrostedman » Sat May 18, 2013 6:28 pm

By the way, nigfis, regarding your link to the Daily KOS blog on the (non-referenced) missing 2.3 trillion...

It's been found. It's coming out of the US taxpayers' pockets and is the exact amount that Obama underestimated in the Obamacare cost projections.

Problem solved. Taxpayers screwed. Let's move on... nothing to see here.
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Postby greeney2 » Sat May 18, 2013 7:03 pm

50/50 on whaT? we may have a split like that concerning tightened buying, but no way for turning in all guns 100 percent. Only the most far left liberal might advocate total disarming, and they are fools. Most far right people favor some kind of reasonable gun buying rules. Truth is assault weapons may be a threat, but the biggest killer is the 22 small handgun. The famed Saturday night specials.
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