The Black Vault

Easy.

All very well documented, btw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

and even more interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

as for the last it is said:

In these cases, there is no "real" drug involved, but the actual harmful, unpleasant or undesirable physiological, behavioural, emotional, and/or cognitive consequences of the administration of the inert drug are very real.

Reports have been established that state certain patients who were diagnosed with terminal illness, who were given say 6 months to live, and then died in that period or similar, then were autopsied, with the discovery thatthey didn't have a terminal illness in the first place....

care to explain this if indeed "emotion has no interaction or effect upon physical matter"?


We can take a prism and seemingly produce a variety of colors of light, but all we are really doing is using a means to filter the light that already exists, which we simply cannot see until we do so....and it is in a similar fashion that the emotion already exists, though not manifested until it is processed by the physical brain, in which it is demonstrated in a context of chemical interaction...sure we can use certain chemicals to, sort of in "reverse", manifest certain emotions in a rough and vague way, but it ends up being akin to eating a french fry and calling it a potato....or perhaps creating a clone of ourselves and expecting it to have our personality simply because it has the exact same physical and genetic structure as ourselves.

Our brain is very very powerful when it comes to our own bodies, but that's not emotion manipulating matter, that's emotion dictating what happens in our bodies. The placebo effect in no way states that we can do things with our emotions outside of our bodies. That's not directly manipulating matter.


It simply means that we perceive what we want, to a degree. Ever hear someone say "it's all in your state of mind"? They were correct. BUT, what you CAN'T do with your state of mind is manipulate matter.

Reports have been established that state certain patients who were diagnosed with terminal illness, who were given say 6 months to live, and then died in that period or similar, then were autopsied, with the discovery thatthey didn't have a terminal illness in the first place....

care to explain this if indeed "emotion has no interaction or effect upon physical matter"

Yes, placebo and nocebo.

We can take a prism and seemingly produce a variety of colors of light, but all we are really doing is using a means to filter the light that already exists, which we simply cannot see until we do so.

Well, seemingly produce doesn't mean anything. We aren't producing anything, we're dissecting the light that is there, that we CAN in fact see. How do you see things without light? You don't.

So you are seeing it, it's just clear so there is nothing in the light that you see as abnormal. Whereas colour is different, we observe it as something different. Light, and in fact all ElectroMagnetic Radiation has varying frequencies, within the broadband of frequencies that the human eye is capable of seeing these variations produce what we observe as colour.

How this works is quite simply, objects "absorb", so to speak, light. The wavelengths that aren't absorbed are reflected, we see these colours. So when you see a leaf, it's green because that combination of light is the part of the light that ISN'T being absorbed by the leaf is bouncing into your eye from the leaf.

Or, in the case of fire and stars and whatnot, light is created by some means and the combination of frequencies produced determines what colour we observe.

My mind sees a glass of water, my emotions say "id really like some ice, so i put the water in the freezer....my emotins have just had a tangible effect upon matter....

Very aware of what color is, which is a non-real thing anyway.

in the same way way that a vibration in air is not the same thing as "sound" neither is a wavelength of light a "color" until our eyes detect and process it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KTXW8gm ... re=related

Full scream 0

tairaa wrote:The placebo effect in no way states that we can do things with our emotions outside of our bodies. That's not directly manipulating matter.

oh really?

So when the doctor says "you are receiving a powerful chemical that should clear up that rash right away"...yet in reality it is a placebo...and yet it does, because of the power of suggestion, clear up the rash (or whatever the case may be) you don't believe this is the exact thing you have just denied exists?

Very aware of what color is, which is a non-real thing anyway.

in the same way way that a vibration in air is not the same thing as "sound" neither is a wavelength of light a "color" until our eyes detect and process it.

According to you. And how is colour not real?

My mind sees a glass of water, my emotions say "id really like some ice, so i put the water in the freezer....my emotins have just had a tangible effect upon matter....

Key words in that being:
"so i put the water in the freezer"
That's another example of your emotions dictating what you do. YOU are physically capable of manipulating matter, I know this. Your emotions are not.

oh really?

So when the doctor says "you are receiving a powerful chemical that should clear up that rash right away"...yet in reality it is a placebo...and yet it does, because of the power of suggestion, clear up the rash (or whatever the case may be) you don't believe this is the exact thing you have just denied exists?

Yeap!

Exactly!

Perhaps you're confused as to what I'm saying has never happened?

The same way that sound is not real...I believe i have explained it at length, and it isnt just "me", if you pay any attention to scientific analysis at all, you would know this.

Of course the word "real" can be tossed around a bit. Real enough for our purposes sure, but in reality, no.

Color is nothing more than the detection of a wavelength of light by a photosensitive receptor, such as the eyeball... which the end-result effect, as you have correctly pointed out, has to do with how much is reflected and how much is absorbed off of physical matter, or whatever the case may be....it is not "color" until it hits the optic nerve and is sent into the brain to be processed and manifested in "what we call colour".

In the same way that sound is nothing more than a particular vibration in the air until the auditory system intercepts it and processes it, transforming the vibrations into electrical impulses within the brain, which we understand then as "sound"....outside of the transformation of that signal into what we call sound, there is no sound, only vibration.

Do you doubt this?

And furthermore....let's take it a step further and say that a certain wavelength of light (or "color", to our eyeball/brain interface) is projected, and this light has a "calming effect" on the mind, and thus lowers our heart-rate or blood pressure, or overall stress level (a proven thing, mind you), and this results in a direct effect upon matter...through nothing but emotion.

What you are missing is that WE ARE matter....so, emotion is most certainly having an effect upon matter....something as simple as a stressful event, which we respond to with an emotion, which then has detectable effects upon our body, proves that emotion has an effect upon matter....you are simply disconnect our "bodies" from what I am referring to as Matter for some reason.

Tairaa wrote:

oh really?

So when the doctor says "you are receiving a powerful chemical that should clear up that rash right away"...yet in reality it is a placebo...and yet it does, because of the power of suggestion, clear up the rash (or whatever the case may be) you don't believe this is the exact thing you have just denied exists?

Yeap!

Exactly!

Perhaps you're confused as to what I'm saying has never happened?

Not confused at all. You are saying emotion has no effect on manipulating matter, yet you are apparently saying that you (i think) believe the placebo effect is real...which is a contradiction.

The same way that sound is not real...

Are emotions real?

I believe i have explained it at length, and it isnt just "me", if you pay any attention to scientific analysis at all, you would know this.

No, you haven't explained it at length, nor, to my knowledge, have you provided any studies that do. In any case it's a terminology gap, I disagree with your terminology. I'm aware that it isn't perceived unless there is an ear to hear it but it has exactly the same effect on everything whether or not there is an ear to hear it. It is exactly the same thing, only it's not observed.

Of course the word "real" can be tossed around a bit. Real enough for our purposes sure, but in reality, no.

My definition of real is:
Real=existent in reality.
For the purposes of this argument the definition has shifted a bit to mean physical things I guess..

Color is nothing more than the detection of a wavelength of light by a photosensitive receptor, such as the eyeball... which the end-result effect, as you have correctly pointed out, has to do with how much is reflected and how much is absorbed off of physical matter, or whatever the case may be....it is not "color" until it hits the optic nerve and is sent into the brain to be processed and manifested in "what we call colour".

It isn't the sense colour, but the underlying mechanics are completely the same whether or not we see it, is the point. I'm aware it doesn't play on the senses unless we look at it, but our sensing it has nothing to do with what it is doing. So we disagree on terminology, nothing more. Until you give me proof that the way I'm using my terms is incorrect I'm sticking too them. Not that it really matters anyway because I'm sure we both agree with the underlying meaning.

a certain wavelength of light (or "color", to our eyeball/brain interface) is projected, and this light has a "calming effect" on the mind, and thus lowers our heart-rate or blood pressure, or overall stress level (a proven thing, mind you), and this results in a direct effect upon matter...through nothing but emotion.

Through nothing but emotion....
So light influences our emotions, yes. That is not manipulating matter. That is influencing your emotions, which influence your body, which has the capacity to manipulate matter. This is what I've been saying the whole time.

What you are missing is that WE ARE matter....so, emotion is most certainly having an effect upon matter....

No, I'm not missing that..
I've stated several times that emotion effects us, but it cannot influence anything outside of our bodies directly. Only through our own action. The same way C++ can influence a computer, it cannot pick up a stone. It, perhaps, can tell a robotic arm to pick up a stone, but C++ cannot pick up a stone.

Not confused at all. You are saying emotion has no effect on manipulating matter, yet you are apparently saying that you (i think) believe the placebo effect is real...which is a contradiction.

No it's not. Because I said repeatedly that obviously your emotions have a powerful role to play in your general well being, or lack thereof.