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Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby frrostedman » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:14 am

Spot on, qmark bro.

What we have here (and I cannot blame the non-Christian for failing to see the difference) is a lack of understanding of what it means to be Christian. And this issue plays a role on some level, in just about every debate we have ever had.

A Christian is not someone who simply professes to be Christian.

The non-Christians fail to see the difference because they don't know what it's like to be on the other side of the fence. They believe that everyone is on their side of the fence, but, the ones who claim to be Christian are just nutters and/or liars and fakes.

I'm sure you remember when you weren't a Christian. I sure do. I had no idea, and I suspect you didn't either, what a Christian really was, other than someone who just branded themselves one.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby bionic » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:29 am

the problem is there are SO many who claim to be Christian... and so obviously..are NOT..it jades observers
Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
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Postby humphreys » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:16 am

Every Christian thinks they are a true Christian.

Every believer thinks they are worshipping the one true God.

Every believer thinks their interpretation of any religious text is God's real meaning.

The only thing we know for sure is, at the very least, the vast majority of them have to be wrong, and if the common conception of Christianity is true, Hell and torture awaits the unfortunate ones.

What a fun story! Yay religion :thumbup:
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby event_horizon » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:14 pm

qmark wrote:
event_horizon wrote:Right, and all the atrocities, slavery, orders to kill people, and genocide committed by the Biblical "God" are ignored. Let's fill their heads with only the good parts, eh?

So are you trying to tell me (in your corner of the world) that children are never told even once about "Hell"? It doesn't matter if it comes from the church, sunday school, the parents, or some nutjob teacher, they'll be told about it from some Christian in their lives. And when they hear it it'll scare the crap out of them, and by the time they're adults they'll be so brainwashed by the religion itself, the chances of them overcoming it and thinking for themselves and choosing their own path through life is slim to none, with "Hell" being the most descouraging factor from them doing so...because "oh my, what if it's true?"


If that were true, then we would be living in a world where everything is just about perfect because everybody would be too afraid to do anything. Can't you see how stupid that statement sounds?


Yeah but we're not talking about "anything." It's stupid that you would compare this to "anything." Let's stick to the subject. We're talking about the most fearful thing ever imagined -- a place where you go to burn forever and ever. And you sure did sound afraid earlier when you said, "truth be told, that is what we all deserve and I wouldn’t wish that on anybody." Well, if you're not afraid of "Hell" then why wouldn't you wish that on anybody? You obviously hold some level of fear -- if not for yourself then for others.

But now, all of a sudden, you seem to almost be pretending like "Hell" is no big deal or is a fictional place, and act like nobody ever gets frightened when told about it...not even children. That's a buncha baloney. I don't even know how you can possibly arrive at that conclusion.

I can tell you when I was a child and was told about "Hell," the thought of it scared the crap out of me, and I wasn't raised on religion. My mother used to tell me that if anybody asked, I was Protestant, with me not even knowing what that was. But I believed in "Hell" for some time, just because my grandmother told me about it while at one of several rare church outings with my great aunts. I'm guessing now she probably meant well, and figured if she told me (knowing my mother wasn't going to tell me anything of it) that it would keep me in line. It wasn't until I was 14 when I first began to gradually realize that it had to be a big ton of crap. But just from of that experience, it showed me just how powerful a tool the concept of "Hell" can be for children. And I imagine that if I lived in a religious household that went to church on a regular basis, I could be brainwashed right now, with the thought of "Hell" possibly keeping me from looking for alternative answers to existence. Although, knowing myself, I would have most likely turned away from it at some point. But not everyone has a strong will.

qmark wrote:I read that the statistics within the church are almost the same as those outside the church.


That's because the other half are the weak ones that need a crutch.

qmark wrote:I was not raised in a home that went to church or by parents who, as far as I know, believed in God. My grandmother took me to a Methodist church a few times but I can tell you I wasn't interested.


What is it with grandmothers wanting to bring their grandkids to these places? lol. Yeah the 4 or 5 times I went to church in my childhood (at 7-10 years old), I hated it. It seemed so depressing to me. It seemed like everyone was so down and out..."woe is me." Understanding it now, I'm sure they were like that because they thought they were "sinners" deserving punishment or whatever. I don't remember the preacher saying anything specifically about "Hell"...maybe he did and I wasn't paying attention because I was bored out of my mind.

qmark wrote:I am almost certain that I first became aware of hell through a Tom & Jerry cartoon.


Well then you can't speak from experience of what a child might feel like when told about "Hell" from an adult.

qmark wrote:Again, what a bunch of hooey. I know my fair share of Catholics who, by your definition, were indoctrinated into the Catholic religion at an early age, but now wouldn't go near a church, any church. That also blows your theory out of the water.


So you know of some of these people in your little circle, and that's supposed to "blow my theory out of the water?" The only thing you're blowing out of the water right here is fart bubbles in a bathtub.

qmark wrote:I repeat, one can not be indoctrinated INTO BEING A CHRISTIAN. One can learn all the terminology, learn all the preceps, learn all the tennets of the faith, but that does not make one a Christian.


You're getting too technical here. If children are being dragged into church and having the Bible instilled in their heads then it's indoctrination, whether they're officially Christians or not.
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby event_horizon » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:19 pm

humphreys wrote:The only thing we know for sure is, at the very least, the vast majority of them have to be wrong, and if the common conception of Christianity is true, Hell and torture awaits the unfortunate ones.

What a fun story! Yay religion :thumbup:


What's really messed up is that they want it to be true. The thought of them being able to spend forever in Fantasyland outweighs the thought of the rest of us being tortured forever, which is completely selfish. No rational/compassionate human being would want this to be true.
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:49 pm

What's really messed up is that they want it to be true. The thought of them being able to spend forever in Fantasyland outweighs the thought of the rest of us being tortured forever, which is completely selfish. No rational/compassionate human being would want this to be true.



LOL LOL LOL...Textbook. Demanding and expecting unselfishness....ie...textbook. Does this sound rational?? Basing your thinking on the idea that we are good people..therefore we deserve unselfishness from other people..even demand it or else face .....Labeling and stereotyping??

I think it is the opposite of what is posted...that many unbelievers want and need it to be true to justify their insecurities and "Victim hood."

They, in essence, need someone to blame and rationalize anything and everything to do it.

If they are so sure of their positions..why blame others and hold others accountable for their beliefs?? This does not make good nonsense when you think it through. It comes across as bondage....for if these people don't believe..they are free of what they are complaining/whining about.
You see this pattern often on these threads..it gets predictable...sort of M!A standard issue.

Thanks,
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Postby frrostedman » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:46 pm

orangetom1999 wrote:
What's really messed up is that they want it to be true. The thought of them being able to spend forever in Fantasyland outweighs the thought of the rest of us being tortured forever, which is completely selfish. No rational/compassionate human being would want this to be true.

LOL LOL LOL...Textbook.


Textbook indeed. And conjecture. And strawman.

Talk about "fantasy land." The author of that quote is LIVING in fantasy land. :roll:
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby bionic » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:10 am

humphreys wrote:Every Christian thinks they are a true Christian.

Every believer thinks they are worshipping the one true God.

Every believer thinks their interpretation of any religious text is God's real meaning.

The only thing we know for sure is, at the very least, the vast majority of them have to be wrong, and if the common conception of Christianity is true, Hell and torture awaits the unfortunate ones.

What a fun story! Yay religion :thumbup:


it's fun watching Christians fight Christians (I'm more christian than you!! uh..the opposite of what jesus taught..lol)..kind alike wacthing the republican hopefuls about now..lol

:twisted:
Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams
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Postby orangetom1999 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:25 am

Bionic,

There is nothing fun about this...

it's fun watching Christians fight Christians (I'm more christian than you!! uh..the opposite of what jesus taught..lol)..kind alike wacthing the republican hopefuls about now..lol


for those who know..those who can seen hear and understand...Almost all of the Republicans are nothing more than Democrat Lite. To keep the republican party going these Republicans will mix new wine with olde, leven with unleven. This is why they are Democrat Lite.

They are no different than the pharisees of the past in Ancient Israel. The Pharisees are still with us today.

Thinking people know this about both partys...that they are not the product advertised.

Thanks,
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Postby qmark » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:57 am

event_horizon wrote:Yeah but we're not talking about "anything." It's stupid that you would compare this to "anything." Let's stick to the subject.


I am sticking to the subject. The subject is hell being used as a "tool". A tool for what, to scare people into going to church? Millions do not go to church and have absolute no desire to do so. Not very effective there. Is it a tool to keep people in church? The decline in church membership has been steadily dropping for years. Not very effective there, either. Is it a tool to control people? As I already stated, statistically, the sins that beset the world are almost identical within the church. As a tool, it is failing miserably. If it were truly an effective tool, people WOULD be afraid to do ANYTHING that might send them to hell.

event_horizon wrote:We're talking about the most fearful thing ever imagined -- a place where you go to burn forever and ever. And you sure did sound afraid earlier when you said, "truth be told, that is what we all deserve and I wouldn’t wish that on anybody." Well, if you're not afraid of "Hell" then why wouldn't you wish that on anybody?


Seriously? What kind of person would I be if I wished people would spend an eternity in hell? An evil person might do that. Do you wish people would spend an eternity in hell? I will not even use the expression "go to hell" as so many people say without even thinking. No, what I said was a statement of fact. We are all deserving of hell. Fortunately, Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins so we don't have to. What a marvelous and wonderful loving God we have in Christ Jesus!

event_horizon wrote:But now, all of a sudden, you seem to almost be pretending like "Hell" is no big deal or is a fictional place, and act like nobody ever gets frightened when told about it...not even children.


Not so. Hell is a big deal, it is just a lousy tool, which is what we are talking about, as I believe what I wrote above and what you wrote below proves. When a person becomes a Christian, their focus is on Jesus and not on hell.

event_horizon wrote:I can tell you when I was a child and was told about "Hell," the thought of it scared the crap out of me, and I wasn't raised on religion. My mother used to tell me that if anybody asked, I was Protestant, with me not even knowing what that was. But I believed in "Hell" for some time, just because my grandmother told me about it while at one of several rare church outings with my great aunts. I'm guessing now she probably meant well, and figured if she told me (knowing my mother wasn't going to tell me anything of it) that it would keep me in line. It wasn't until I was 14 when I first began to gradually realize that it had to be a big ton of crap. But just from of that experience, it showed me just how powerful a tool the concept of "Hell" can be for children.


Thank you EH for proving my point. If it had been an effective tool you would still be on the straight and narrow.

event_horizon wrote:And I imagine that if I lived in a religious household that went to church on a regular basis, I could be brainwashed right now, with the thought of "Hell" possibly keeping me from looking for alternative answers to existence. Although, knowing myself, I would have most likely turned away from it at some point. But not everyone has a strong will.


Again thanks. It may, and I'll give you this, invoke an initial response, but certainly not a lasting one which I believe everyone would agree with if they are being honest.

event_horizon wrote:What is it with grandmothers wanting to bring their grandkids to these places? lol. Yeah the 4 or 5 times I went to church in my childhood (at 7-10 years old), I hated it. It seemed so depressing to me.


You got to love grandmothers. A church can be depressing if they are not preaching the whole word of God.

event_horizon wrote:You're getting too technical here. If children are being dragged into church and having the Bible instilled in their heads then it's indoctrination, whether they're officially Christians or not.


Again, indoctrination that apparently isn't working. Perhaps they are using lousy tools, like hell. Maybe they should try sowing seeds instead.
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