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Proofs of God

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Postby event_horizon » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:52 pm

SmokinJoe wrote:Yes, so now that we know I'm talking about scientific skepticism under the umbrella of science, do you now get it that a negative claim still falls under the onus of proof?


Now that I know you're not talking about science in general, but a branch of science, yes.

Scientific skeptics do not assert that unusual claims should be automatically rejected out of hand on a priori grounds - rather they argue that claims of paranormal or anomalous phenomena should be critically examined and that extraordinary claims would require extraordinary evidence in their favor before they could be accepted as having validity.


But at the same time, "paranormal or anomalous phenomena" is pseudoscience:

a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

If the scientific method can't be put to use regarding these claims, then there's no way to PROVE them false, and these ridiculous claims can go on forever.

SmokinJoe wrote:It very much applies. So much so that they often FOCUS their criticism on implausible claims. And out of that skepticism, scientists state that those who claim, for example, that God is a fairy tale, must support their negative claim. The onus of proof is on the claimant to prove it.

If said claimant fails or refuses to support their negative claim, then that is known, in scientific circles, as pseudoskepticism.

I'm talking about negative onus of proof. A claim is a claim. In science, if one make a claim for or against something, the onus of proof is on them.

If i were trying to submit my views into scientific discipline, then I would. I am not making any claims beyond my personal experiences that God exists. I'm not trying to make anyone else believe as I do. I'm not trying to claim God is provable through any scientific means. That is why I believe this subject falls under the realm of philosophy.


So, basically, anybody can make any outrageous claim they want (with no evidence), and just because they aren't involved in the scientific community, they don't get to be labeled "pseudoskeptics". But if a scientist comes along and says their idea is crap, and doesn't have the evidence to prove them wrong, they're the pseudoskeptic?

Something about that line of reasoning just doesn't seem right. :problem:

SmokinJoe wrote:In philosophy, this is how this bears out:

We each state our view on God -

SJ knows God exists.
EH knows God does not exist.

Both statements are true to each individual. This is debatable in Philosophy. However, neither of us can take our view on God from a philosophical debate to a scientific one. There are no scientific tools, methodologies or principles that can be used in science to establish the existence/non-existence of God.


I never said I "know God does not exist". I said I know the "Biblical God" doesn't exist. You're the one making the outlandish claim that not only do you KNOW "God" exists, but it's the "Biblical God".
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby event_horizon » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:00 pm

SmokinJoe wrote:
EH wrote on one interpretation, ie literal:
The timeline in the Bible still goes back 6,000 years to Adam and Eve (or roughly 4,000 B.C.). So according to the Bible, there shouldn't have been any humans living more than 6,000 years ago, but human remains have been found that are 400,000 years old. No matter how you slice it, the Biblical timeline does not coincide with the facts of how long humans have existed.


You are entitled to believe that interpretation if you like. Do you know why the ancestral jews interpreted it that way? BTW, most jews today believe the interpretation that many Christians believe as well, that Genesis shows an Earth billions of years old.

By the time God created the light and called it "Day" that was Gen 1:3. Anyone who reads Genesis knows there are two verses about the Earth and Heavens being in existence already. The "first" day didn't happen until 1:3.

Also, many Christians, like myself, understand the Genesis "days" referring to the light in the spiritual sense. That is because we believe God had already created the Heavens and Earth like it says in Gen: 1:1-2.(when darkness and chaos came over the Earth. Again, Earth was already in existence by Gen 1:3..

Quote from St. Augustine:

[Genesis 1] moves not so much between the poles of nothingness and creation as between the poles of chaos and cosmos." Some Christian scholars agree; Saint Augustine wrote that: "the Bible says: 'In the beginning God made heaven and earth.' It must be inferred that God has created nothing before that; 'in the beginning' must refer to whatever he made before all his other works. Thus there can be no doubt that the world was not created in time but with time." (Confessions IX:6).

We non-literalist believe this:

Sirach 18:1, creavit omni simul ("he created all things at once")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_ ... o#Creation

And while those in science haven't actually made claims in public that the "Biblical God" doesn't exist, they don't have to. The findings of these human remains speak for itself.


Which can be taken one of two ways, humans believe God created the Earth in 6 literal days. Other humans believe God created the universe at once and the Earth was already in existence when God starting talking about the spiritual light of being and the darkness that was on the Earth.

It is easy to speculate why the scientists haven't commented. It's just as easy to say they don't have to because they know too many Christians hold the view of an Earth billions of years old.


You just completely ignored the point I made. Your reply has nothing to do with what I posted. This isn't about the "6 Day Creation" period. This is about the Timeline in the Bible that starts with Adam and Eve 6,000 years ago and onward. Here, look at the Biblical people chart that begins in 4,000 B.C. with "Adam":

http://www.startagain.org/images/Creati ... ne-web.gif

The fact that humans walked the Earth 400,000 years ago obliterates the "Adam and Eve" fairy tale.
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby event_horizon » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:03 pm

humphreys wrote:Atheists acting like the crusades? Get real, Greeney.

You getting butt-hurt by some unbelievers on a message forum cannot be compared to wholesale slaughter and torture, but whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose!


He's completely off his rocker...literally and figuratively. I hope he's got that "I've fallen and I can't get up" whatchamadoodle thingy.

I'm beginning to think he's a spam bot. He's posted the same rant now like 10 times already.
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:18 am

Like posting every imaginary god proof isn't more of the same trash!
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Postby event_horizon » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:51 am

greeney2 wrote:Like posting every imaginary god proof isn't more of the same trash!


I wouldn't expect you to see it any other way. :crazy:
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:54 am

Thank you, now if you can just figure it out, everyone else sees it as trash too, we can stop wasting time, and talk about fishing. :clap:
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Postby event_horizon » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:29 am

You'd need to go to another forum to talk about fishing. Sheesh, you're supposed to know these things, Mr. Mod. :thumbdown:
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby humphreys » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:00 am

at1with0 wrote:
humphreys wrote:
at1with0 wrote:Hmm, so you believe that belief in the Christian God is false?


Yes.

at1with0 wrote:How does that not make you a strong atheist?


Greeney thinks the Muslim belief is false, is he a strong atheist also?


No because he believes in a God. Your turn. I asked if you believe that belief in the Christian God is false belief and you said yes; one assumes you feel that way about all Gods. If you believe all belief in Gods is false, that makes you a strong atheist.
"False belief held with conviction," after all.


That makes no sense. Similarly I could say, if one has belief in the Christian God, surely one feels the same way about all proposed Gods?

I believe belief in Zeus, or the Christian God is false, but the Deist's God or the God of pantheism I have to admit there is the possibility of its existence.

The problem you're having grasping such a simple concept is strange to me, because you're usually very sharp.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby humphreys » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:02 am

event_horizon wrote:
humphreys wrote:Atheists acting like the crusades? Get real, Greeney.

You getting butt-hurt by some unbelievers on a message forum cannot be compared to wholesale slaughter and torture, but whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose!


He's completely off his rocker...literally and figuratively. I hope he's got that "I've fallen and I can't get up" whatchamadoodle thingy.

I'm beginning to think he's a spam bot. He's posted the same rant now like 10 times already.


No as you say, I think he's just blown a gasket and its shot him straight into fantasy land.

If the atheists kick off like the crusades, you'll be the first to know about it, Greeney :twisted:
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby at1with0 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:12 am

humphreys wrote:That makes no sense. Similarly I could say, if one has belief in the Christian God, surely one feels the same way about all proposed Gods?

I believe belief in Zeus, or the Christian God is false, but the Deist's God or the God of pantheism I have to admit there is the possibility of its existence.

The problem you're having grasping such a simple concept is strange to me, because you're usually very sharp.


It's pretty simple. You believe and/or claim that belief in all Gods is a false belief held with conviction (correct me if I'm wrong). That makes you a strong atheist. Greeney2 is not a strong atheist because he believes in a God.
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