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Proofs of God

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Postby greeney2 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:10 am

First Humphreys Congradulations to both you and Mrs. H with a new one on the way. :D Thats great news, and glad to hear how you enjoyed the holidays. :D

I think what you are saying we might touch on agreement, that the idea of any concept of pre-universe, when there was nothing, not a single atom, the actual beginning, nothing for the forces of nature, or laws of physics to react with, is too mind boggleing for everyone to visualize. No science known can figure that one out yet, or the answer to questions where does the universe end? and what is just beyond that? Does Time have a beginning or an end, when our preception of time relates to revolution of our planets, in our solar system? Some things are beyond comprehenion for man completly. For people like me, my only deduction is God for those questions. Does that just give me an answer I am content with? Maybe!
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Postby humphreys » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:04 pm

Thanks Greeney, hope you had a good Christmas too and here's to a good New Year.

I agree we don't have real answers to those questions and maybe we never will. We're a part of the Universe too, in many ways it's amazing that we've come as far as we have!
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby event_horizon » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:00 pm

This isn't "proof" of anything. All you're doing is prematurely answering one question and replacing it with another question.

If there was a "God" that created this universe, then how did "God" come into being? Something from nothing?...and if so, how is it more plausible that an infinitely complex/intelligent being can come into existence out of nothing than it is for a universe to come out of nothing?

From a logical standpoint, non-intelligence would have had to come first, whether that be a universe, singularity, higher-dimensional space, membranes, or whatever.

You could say that "Gods" evolved in another dimension, and perhaps one or more of them created this one. I'd have a much better time entertaining that as an infinitesimal possibility, than I would the idea that "God was and always will be" (never had a beginning), which is total nonsense.
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby greeney2 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:42 pm

Total nonsense? Based on what? If we are unable to comprehend the absolute beginning of our Universe, visualize "Nothing" but a complete empty void, Time as we know it would not exist in any form. Did one God alone always exist and always will? Is there merit to Greek Mythology beleiving in many Gods for differnet things in our Universe? Its not total nonsense, anymore than believing the Universe always was, that there was never a point in Genisis where "In the Beginning, there was nothing but a void". Some things there is not proof for, and somethings are just beyond the comprehension of man. Those things are just futile to argue over when you think about it, no side can proove their positions. I may deduct God, and you may deduct nonsense, but neither of us can proove it, short of leaving this life.

All we can agree on is sending a post card when you find out. :lol: I'll be checking my mailbox, cause I ain't in a hurry! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby event_horizon » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:14 pm

greeney2 wrote:Total nonsense? Based on what?


You tell me. How can any form of intelligence exist without ever having a beginning? It's a concept that was invented by ancient scientifically unsophisticated humans that had no basic understanding of reality. And you say that this concept is "beyond the comprehension of man," yet you believe that primitive men had a better understanding of it than us. :crazy:

greeney2 wrote:If we are unable to comprehend the absolute beginning of our Universe, visualize "Nothing" but a complete empty void, Time as we know it would not exist in any form. Did one God alone always exist and always will?


If there was "nothing" prior to the universe for your "God" to exist in, then how could it have existed?

Why or how could your ONE "God" exist in absolute nothingness, all alone, for eternity? And how did it get there if it were surrounded by nothing? Was it created by nothing?...and if you believe so, then why is it so hard to believe that the universe sprang forth from nothing?

greeney2 wrote:Its not total nonsense, anymore than believing the Universe always was,


I don't believe that. It's estimated that the universe is around 13 billion years old. Plus the fact that it's expanding should tell you it didn't always exist.

greeney2 wrote:All I may deduct God, and you may deduct nonsense, but neither of us can proove it, short of leaving this life.

we can agree on is sending a post card when you find out. I'll be checking my mailbox, cause I ain't in a hurry!


You couldn't send a postcard from "nothing," since there would be "nothing" to send it through. :P
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:48 pm

The Universe is matter! It is Atoms! The Universe is solids, liquids, and gases! You look for science for your answers, and science can not give you an answer for any process that formed our Universe from a empty void of nothing, not even a single atom. All scientifc explanations deal with the laws of physics, and forces of Nature, acting and reacting on these elements that form all celestial bodies. Science also can not answer the question if the Universe always was. Or how it that is true!

I think the question is to you, that if there was a beginning, and it began from absolute nothing, how else except by God could it occur? According to science, and according to all known about physics, it could not happen if there were no matter whatsoever. Either explain that, or explain how the Univserse always was?
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Postby frrostedman » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:02 pm

When it all boils down, the Atheists have a certain degree of 'faith' that the universe was borne from nothing scientifically. Because it can't be explained, and, they are left to shrug their shoulders and say, "I don't know" which is precisely what those of faith have to do when asked all the "why" questions.

All of us collectively shrug, and lean on our "faith," whether it be in science or in something beyond science.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby event_horizon » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:35 am

The "nothing" theory is not the only current theory fellas.

I don't believe the universe sprang from nothing. You can't get something from nothing. If nothing was all there ever was, it would have stayed that way.

I'll go over the other theories:

You know of the old Big Bang theory, which suggests that the universe sprang forth from an infinite density...which is still a reasonable theory because it could have happened by way of a collapsed star/black hole in another universe.

String Theory suggests that there was a 12-dimensional universe that collapsed onto itself, where we can only experience 4 dimensions of it, one of them being time, and the rest of them are curled up and undetectable. But the latest string theory suggests that there are empty membranes "floating" around on gravity waves in a 5th dimension, and when these membranes collide, the friction creates matter in those membranes, in essence creating a "Big Bang."

I don't believe in either of those string theories, because I don't believe membranes or a 12-D "object" can appear by themselves, caused by nothing. The "Big Bang"/infinite density theory is plausible, but it doesn't explain how the very first universe came about. [Note: the original Big Bang theory doesn't suggest that the infinite density came from another universe; it was supposedly always there/eternal -- I don't believe that part of it for the same reason I don't believe in the 2 string theories.]

I'm going to explain how I believe that very first universe came into existence. I've been over this before, but some people may have forgotten...and for the new people...

Because you can't get something from nothing, something had to be there. I believe there must have been a basic single form of eternal energy, but there had to be space for the energy to exists in, and it couldn't have been 3-dimensional. 3-D empty space is just too wide open for anything to really interact and get something going when there's no matter. So there must have been a higher-dimensional space (or 4th spatial dimension, commonly known as "hyperspace") -- a space where it would be theoretically possible for quantum particles to jump from point A to point B instantaneously, and also be able to jump INTO one another.

Quantum Entanglement (quantum particles interacting with each other over large distances instantaneously) hints that our universe could be embedded in a higher-dimension.

So what we have ("in the beginning") is a single form of energy existing in an infinite/eternal higher-dimensional space. At some point, a "region" in this infinity became unstable, and the single form of energy then released positive and negative charged quantum particles...and both a positive and negative jumped into one another, which then fed off of the surrounding single form of energy, and created a universe. But that first universe was probably very weak and had different laws of physics than this one, but from it began a chain of universes where each one evolved closer and closer to the common laws of physics we see in this universe.

That sounds much more plausible to me than an uncreated, infinitely complex/intelligent being that magically appeared out of nowhere, came from nothing, and possessed unlimited powers, all without going through any sort of evolutionary process.
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby humphreys » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:24 am

You are right in a way Tom, but it isn't faith the atheist has, it's a philosophical position that says if you don't know where something comes from, don't invent extra stuff to explain its existence without very good reason, especially when the existence of that extra stuff is even harder to fathom and explain than the original thing you're trying to explain.

Also called the principle of parsimony...
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

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Postby greeney2 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:58 am

Good statements by everyone seriously, and I think we all agree the answer of the true beginning, the answer to if the Universe began from absolute nothing, or it the Universe always exsisted, is something Man has not figured out. That is a great explanation about making up explanations, but proposing theories is what that may be Humphreys. EH, I had a different idea of big bang from metalurgy, but even so, it was a theory based on "something", atoms and parts of atoms forming, I don't quite undestand your other ideas but you touch on a unknown energy sourse being first for a "nothing" theory. An energy sourse that is your theory tha that is unexplainable or definable. Why isn't God a possibility for that energy sourse, since the comprehesion of the true beginning of our universe is so unknown? You rule out God as part of your belief, I rule it as the only deduction. Neither of us can proove it either way.

PS. I asked the question regarding atoms the other day, as to what is the differance between metals and non-metals. Our Periodic chart gives us about 110 elements, with about 3/4's if them being metals. The one factor that classifies a metal from a non-metal, is that all metals share electrons. Non-metals do not share electrons. The sharing of electrons in the outer ring makes them a metal, and why they conduct electrical current and heat. Electrons on metals flow in the outer rings into each other, in non-metals the electrons stay within the atom and do not travel to the next atom. They therefore are not conductor of heat or electricity.
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