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Proofs of God

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Postby frrostedman » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:10 pm

humphreys wrote:I would think that perhaps laws of physics as we know them apply to states of existence, and that when there is no existence, there are no laws as such, so anything can happen, including something coming from nothing.

If you think about it, laws are simply restrictions applied to material things. Remove the material things, and you remove the restrictions.

No Universe=no laws, which means it's pointless to even apply logic to such a state. That's where the kinda arguments being made in the opening post fall apart.

We see a Universe, and use the logic of that Universe to determine how it came to be, which misses the point that prior to the Universe, the logic we are using did not even necessarily apply.

The same problem arises when we ask what came before the big bang. Well, the big bang was also the creation of time according to mainstream science, so the question becomes meaningless. What came before the big bang is like asking what is outside the Universe.


Thank you for explaining that. Maybe you've done it many times before but if so I missed it. That makes sense, although the same argument could be used in favor of a Creator. Still it makes the something-from-nothing argument make more sense.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby at1with0 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:17 pm

We humans have observed a pitifully miniscule portion of space-time.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if one day it is discovered that something can come from nothing.
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Postby humphreys » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:43 am

frrostedman wrote:Thank you for explaining that. Maybe you've done it many times before but if so I missed it. That makes sense, although the same argument could be used in favor of a Creator. Still it makes the something-from-nothing argument make more sense.


No problem, hope you had a good Christmas.
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Postby greeney2 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:09 pm

frrostedman wrote:
humphreys wrote:I would think that perhaps laws of physics as we know them apply to states of existence, and that when there is no existence, there are no laws as such, so anything can happen, including something coming from nothing.

If you think about it, laws are simply restrictions applied to material things. Remove the material things, and you remove the restrictions.

No Universe=no laws, which means it's pointless to even apply logic to such a state. That's where the kinda arguments being made in the opening post fall apart.

We see a Universe, and use the logic of that Universe to determine how it came to be, which misses the point that prior to the Universe, the logic we are using did not even necessarily apply.

The same problem arises when we ask what came before the big bang. Well, the big bang was also the creation of time according to mainstream science, so the question becomes meaningless. What came before the big bang is like asking what is outside the Universe.


Thank you for explaining that. Maybe you've done it many times before but if so I missed it. That makes sense, although the same argument could be used in favor of a Creator. Still it makes the something-from-nothing argument make more sense.


I know you are a stickler for scientic proof so you first statement in this to explain making something from nothing is scientically not feasable. With out matter, from absolute nothing, physics can not produce a thing. Also the laws of physics depend on the basic 4 forces of Nature, which are gravity, electromagnetism, the strong, and weak force of the nucleous. Are these forces present in a complete void of nothing? Reacting of what?

The Big Bang theory we talked about in advanced metalury, is still a theory that depends of "something" to begin with, not "Nothing". It depends on the existance of atoms to begin with, and tht the process of gravity making the atom more dence,until it reaches a point of added a proton, and becoming a new element. Our periodic table of elements all different numbers of protons and electrons, that evolved in this way, and in that same way, caused the big bang in theory. But is still depended on the most basic parts of the simplist atom, and that was not "Nothing". By the way, of all our atoms, they are either metals or non-metals, anyone know why? Lets hear a few theories? (I know the answer)

Back to the Bible and science, and the question, "In the beginning, there was nothing, only a void"? All the laws of Physics, or basic forces of nature do not explain how we formed our Universe, or how it began from a empty void. How can anything not have a beginning including our Universe? And how could it begin from Nothing unless it had God to do it? The concept of God is so beyond our scope of thinking, how can you comprehend that God always was, and that if we were a empty void of nothing, that that was not infinate.
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Postby at1with0 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:21 pm

I'd like to see proof that there are only 4 fundamental forces of nature cuz I think creativity / creation is a fundamental force.

The separation between God and the universe is an illusion at best.
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Postby greeney2 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:35 pm

Scientically those are the 4 forces of nature. I didn't make it up. Any guess about why metals are metals?
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Postby at1with0 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:43 pm

I never said those forces don't exist I'm looking for proof that they are the only forces.
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Postby gudskepteacal » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:07 pm

Proof of that may be a long time coming, at1, seeing as how scientists can't fully explain how gravity works.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19442_8- ... er_p2.html
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Postby bionic » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:29 am

humphreys wrote:I would think that perhaps laws of physics as we know them apply to states of existence, and that when there is no existence, there are no laws as such, so anything can happen, including something coming from nothing.

If you think about it, laws are simply restrictions applied to material things. Remove the material things, and you remove the restrictions.

No Universe=no laws, which means it's pointless to even apply logic to such a state. That's where the kinda arguments being made in the opening post fall apart.

We see a Universe, and use the logic of that Universe to determine how it came to be, which misses the point that prior to the Universe, the logic we are using did not even necessarily apply.

The same problem arises when we ask what came before the big bang. Well, the big bang was also the creation of time according to mainstream science, so the question becomes meaningless. What came before the big bang is like asking what is outside the Universe.



we have consciousness..now it/we could have developed from nothing, but it/we exists..and if you are aware you must realize that Jung was right..the is a connected consciousness within our species..and if you are really aware..you will notice it goes beyond that..to other species..our ocnsciousness connects with theirs...and if you are really, really aware..you will notice it goes beyond, even that..right down to that rock, at1 mentioned and onward to the stars..and that is when you realize..we are God

you don't have to believe me..just consider it
Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams
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Postby humphreys » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:16 am

greeney2 wrote:
frrostedman wrote:
humphreys wrote:I would think that perhaps laws of physics as we know them apply to states of existence, and that when there is no existence, there are no laws as such, so anything can happen, including something coming from nothing.

If you think about it, laws are simply restrictions applied to material things. Remove the material things, and you remove the restrictions.

No Universe=no laws, which means it's pointless to even apply logic to such a state. That's where the kinda arguments being made in the opening post fall apart.

We see a Universe, and use the logic of that Universe to determine how it came to be, which misses the point that prior to the Universe, the logic we are using did not even necessarily apply.

The same problem arises when we ask what came before the big bang. Well, the big bang was also the creation of time according to mainstream science, so the question becomes meaningless. What came before the big bang is like asking what is outside the Universe.


Thank you for explaining that. Maybe you've done it many times before but if so I missed it. That makes sense, although the same argument could be used in favor of a Creator. Still it makes the something-from-nothing argument make more sense.


I know you are a stickler for scientic proof so you first statement in this to explain making something from nothing is scientically not feasable. With out matter, from absolute nothing, physics can not produce a thing. Also the laws of physics depend on the basic 4 forces of Nature, which are gravity, electromagnetism, the strong, and weak force of the nucleous. Are these forces present in a complete void of nothing? Reacting of what?

The Big Bang theory we talked about in advanced metalury, is still a theory that depends of "something" to begin with, not "Nothing". It depends on the existance of atoms to begin with, and tht the process of gravity making the atom more dence,until it reaches a point of added a proton, and becoming a new element. Our periodic table of elements all different numbers of protons and electrons, that evolved in this way, and in that same way, caused the big bang in theory. But is still depended on the most basic parts of the simplist atom, and that was not "Nothing". By the way, of all our atoms, they are either metals or non-metals, anyone know why? Lets hear a few theories? (I know the answer)

Back to the Bible and science, and the question, "In the beginning, there was nothing, only a void"? All the laws of Physics, or basic forces of nature do not explain how we formed our Universe, or how it began from a empty void. How can anything not have a beginning including our Universe? And how could it begin from Nothing unless it had God to do it? The concept of God is so beyond our scope of thinking, how can you comprehend that God always was, and that if we were a empty void of nothing, that that was not infinate.


Like I said Greeney, laws of physics are laws of the Universe, not pre-Universe.

Science attempts to explain the Universe, but for obvious reasons will always struggle to describe the way a reality would act that preceded the Universe as we know it.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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