frrostedman wrote:humphreys wrote:I would think that perhaps laws of physics as we know them apply to states of existence, and that when there is no existence, there are no laws as such, so anything can happen, including something coming from nothing.
If you think about it, laws are simply restrictions applied to material things. Remove the material things, and you remove the restrictions.
No Universe=no laws, which means it's pointless to even apply logic to such a state. That's where the kinda arguments being made in the opening post fall apart.
We see a Universe, and use the logic of that Universe to determine how it came to be, which misses the point that prior to the Universe, the logic we are using did not even necessarily apply.
The same problem arises when we ask what came before the big bang. Well, the big bang was also the creation of time according to mainstream science, so the question becomes meaningless. What came before the big bang is like asking what is outside the Universe.
Thank you for explaining that. Maybe you've done it many times before but if so I missed it. That makes sense, although the same argument could be used in favor of a Creator. Still it makes the something-from-nothing argument make more sense.
I know you are a stickler for scientic proof so you first statement in this to explain making something from nothing is scientically not feasable. With out matter, from absolute nothing, physics can not produce a thing. Also the laws of physics depend on the basic 4 forces of Nature, which are gravity, electromagnetism, the strong, and weak force of the nucleous. Are these forces present in a complete void of nothing? Reacting of what?
The Big Bang theory we talked about in advanced metalury, is still a theory that depends of "something" to begin with, not "Nothing". It depends on the existance of atoms to begin with, and tht the process of gravity making the atom more dence,until it reaches a point of added a proton, and becoming a new element. Our periodic table of elements all different numbers of protons and electrons, that evolved in this way, and in that same way, caused the big bang in theory. But is still depended on the most basic parts of the simplist atom, and that was not "Nothing". By the way, of all our atoms, they are either metals or non-metals, anyone know why? Lets hear a few theories? (I know the answer)
Back to the Bible and science, and the question, "In the beginning, there was nothing, only a void"? All the laws of Physics, or basic forces of nature do not explain how we formed our Universe, or how it began from a empty void. How can anything not have a beginning including our Universe? And how could it begin from Nothing unless it had God to do it? The concept of God is so beyond our scope of thinking, how can you comprehend that God always was, and that if we were a empty void of nothing, that that was not infinate.
