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Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural

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Postby orangetom1999 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:33 pm

Greeny2,

Though it has been awhile I believe we have, in times past, conversed on what it is I do in my occupation. One of the facets of this type of work...machinist ..is that you have to be able to think somewhat in three dimensions. And you are quite correct in referencing industrial drafting as it relates to three dimensional thinking.
By trial and error...mostly error..I have learned on many tasks to make a template before beginning the first cut or shaping of something I am fabricating. An error here can tax your language skills severely...in addition to ones pocketbook. Some materials more so than others.
On many jobs ..cost overruns/rework are looked at today ..more severely than in times past. And when it is out of your own pocket...even more so..personal.

Hence three dimensional thinking comes somewhat natural to me when looking at an item.

Though not directly related to this topic or science per se...there is another aspect to Faith...it schools or disciplines one to think and sometimes see in a fourth dimension....by Faith. And this Faith is with a capital F...not lower case. I hope you understand to what I allude here??

No extra charge.

I do Believe there are many on this board who absolutely understand what I am saying here...and that by Faith..not of myself.


Continuing on about the shroud and the RCC.

Correct about who is paying the bills...science or organized religion. I agree.

I too do not know whether the Italian Science team is related somehow to the RCC. Not really interested.

An artificial UV source would be hard to come by considering the stage of development of power sources in those days. I do not believe that was how it was done. I believe it was done over a long session of time as were early photos...where a darkened lens cap was removed/opened by hand for long exposure times and the negative was not that sensitive to light as is today's film materials..or even digital materials/techniques.

A camera obscura is just such a technique.


The Vatican does indeed house many historical artifacts. Also some very important documents. Hence my comment in a previous post about what is in the private section of the Vatican Library.

I am also aware that there are peoples out here ..private collectors who have a number of pieces in their private collections which have never been made public.
That too would be very interesting to know about. But the Vatican is one of the largest..indeed.

What began my thinking along these lines was the first time I got to see so many Faberge Eggs in a museum. Up in Richmond, Virginia at the Museum of Fine Arts they have some 7 or 8 Faberge Eggs. I was astonished to learn that most of them came from private collections.

The Vatican also does research indeed into many arenas..not just religion or faith....but all aspects of life.
Most of the people I have met who went for most of their lives to Catholic Schools and Universities seem to have a grasp of languages, logic and reason which is several cuts above most of what one gets in public school. The very width and breadth of their very knowledge base/simple facts/information's..which serves as a grist for their thinking apparatus seems to be much broader than most of the public school people I know.

Thanks for your post,

Orangetom
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Postby gudskepteacal » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:52 pm

So not only is it not supernatural, but it's a big fake as well? :( Dang, orangetom, you sure know how to take the wind outta someone's sails; joy out of Joyous and everything. :P If you don't mind, I'm gonna keep right on believing it's the real deal for a little while longer; just 'till the new year then that's it! - no more wishful thinking. :shifty:
"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." - James Madison
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Postby bionic » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:32 am

humphreys wrote:
frrostedman wrote:
humphreys wrote:Just thinking about it I think that in normal circumstances, what orangetom says is surely true, but, technically, as we're POTENTIALLY dealing with the supernatural...well, normal rules don't apply.


Aye. Sorta like the something/nothing deal.

I did have a good Christmas. And you? How's the ball 'n' chain and rugrat.


Shannon is good, she is pregnant right now so in the rare occasions she doesn't feel sick she's great. Little Jack had a great Christmas too, lots of presents and getting spoilt.



oh..congrats to you both
A baby BRIT!!!
:thumbup:
(we need to retake over the world..it's a secret plan...shh..)
“Whether you sniff it smoke it eat it or shove it up your ass the result is the same: addiction.”
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Postby orangetom1999 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:25 am

Gentlemen...and Ladies,

You folks believe or not believe about the shroud as you wish.

I choose not to believe based on simple reason and the knowledge I have gained on certain technologies over the years.

However...one guiding principle I have learned over the years.

As Believers we are to reason together...not to emote together. There is no such instruction in the Word to become an emotional drama queen over many issues out here on which we are constantly bombarded.

Most of this bombardment to me ..is to shake our Faith and get us to deviate and follow false doctrine...even to briefly or even long term.. keep us off sound doctrine.

To follow if possible..after strange gods...gods newly come up.

We are also told not to be in pictures..believing...images...idols..et al.

There is to my limited knowledge no accurate images or paintings of how Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins appeared.

What little I know is of what is in the Word...or though it has been some time since I have read it...a description by a Roman Author..in that He was hard to look upon..and had the cares of the world on his shoulder. A stressed out person in His walk in this world. It was not the description of a person pleasing to the eye.




However concerning artifacts...or archaeological discoveries...the one which intrigues me the most is the Baruch Bullae.

It is a clay seal of the type put on a scroll and when removed they were often put in a pot or container before opening the scroll.

Some time in the 1970s a bullae came on the market which bore in olde Hebrew or Paleo Hebrew the name...or term...Baruch son of Neriah.

Now Baruch is a common name of that time but when combined with the term....son of Neriah...that changes the perspective. For Baruch was the scribe to the Prophet Jeremiah.

Another such bullae came on the market in the 1990s with the same name on it...Baruch Son of Neriah. The interesting thing about these Bullae is that they were put on with a type of stamp..sometimes carved on the side of a roll..or cylinder...they were rolled on or sometimes on the end of a stamp...and pressed into the clay or wax.


What is of interest is the presence of a fingerprint on the Bullae put on the market in the 1990s.

Now can one claim accurately that this is the fingerprint of Baruch..no one certainly cannot.

But it is startling to think of the possibilities here.

This single artifact, to me, gives creedence to the validity of the Word more than most of the artifacts in the museums.

You folks believe in the shroud all you want. That is certainly your decisioin.

But we are to be in Faith Believing..not in pictures..statues...or even artifacts.

I merely find this artifact from archeology ..the Baruch bullae..startling and unexpected.

http://ancientroadpublications.com/Stud ... aruch.html

I never heard anything at all from the major media about this archeology find.

I only heard about it from a taped sermon by a preacher from out west. Even then I was startled by it. Most unexpected to me.

Thanks,
Orangetom
Last edited by orangetom1999 on Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:49 am

This Came in the mail today...
I've only had time to briefly scan it.


The Turin Shroud

by

Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince

ISBN # 13:978-0-742-9217-7

Copyright 1994,2000,2006

http://www.amazon.com/Turin-Shroud-Vinc ... 153&sr=8-1



Interestng thing in this book the authors show how they recreated the process of making an image by such an Camera obscura over a 12 hour exposure time.

Thanks,
Orangetom
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Postby humphreys » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:07 am

I won't comment on the quality of that book as I have never read it, but looking at the reviews I'd say it's about the worst rated book I've ever seen on there :eh:
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

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Postby greeney2 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:31 am

Sounds like an interresting book OT, but my first question would be if it were as simple as the book claims, why wouldn't the greatest scientists in Italy be able to firgure that one out?

Back to unfolding the shroud and Blueprints. OT, one of the best classes I ever took was called Discriptive Geometry, where we did drawing projection problems. By using drafting projections you could unfold odd shaped 3-D views into flat views to make a template. Can not even remember how it was done, but it was a very fun class. You learned how to use a compass, plus some of those other gadgets in a drafting set, for things other than drawing a circle.
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Postby event_horizon » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:01 pm

This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.


Alien technology. :shock:

frrostedman wrote:Now, the way I alwasy imagined it is, Jesus' body turned to white light and ascended. That idea is completely consistent with the condition of this shroud because had Jesus turned to a brilliant light, it would probably leave something akin to radition burns behind as it as the light ascended through the cloth.


Jesus was an alien, lifted up by the anti-gravity beam of a flying saucer. :shock:
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby bionic » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:06 am

event_horizon wrote:
This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.


Alien technology. :shock:

frrostedman wrote:Now, the way I alwasy imagined it is, Jesus' body turned to white light and ascended. That idea is completely consistent with the condition of this shroud because had Jesus turned to a brilliant light, it would probably leave something akin to radition burns behind as it as the light ascended through the cloth.


Jesus was an alien, lifted up by the anti-gravity beam of a flying saucer. :shock:



I actually kinda think that, too, sometimes
“Whether you sniff it smoke it eat it or shove it up your ass the result is the same: addiction.”
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Postby orangetom1999 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:45 am

Greeny2,

Sounds like an interresting book OT, but my first question would be if it were as simple as the book claims, why wouldn't the greatest scientists in Italy be able to firgure that one out?


Good question Greeny2. My answer would be politics.

I am about a third of the way through this book. According to the authors it took alot of time and effort to get approval for samples in the Carbon 14 tests.
To me that indicated politics.

This is also why I say many times that politics is a very devout religion with very zealous adherents or if you prefer members willing to protect the flock. A very powerful and zealous priesthood as well.

And another thing Greeny, You stated..scientists in Italy. Italy has long been known for intrigues and conspiracies going back to the Romans and up to today ...Propaganda 2 or P2 and the Vatican Bank...Roberto Calvi...et al.
Even the short reign of Pople John Paul the 1st of about 30 days or so...mired in intrigue and conspiracy to suppress.

The Vatican Bank scandal still occasionally crops up in the news..albeit in suppressed form...known only to those with an attention span going back far enough to remember. Which is very few here in America. I catch it every time..but most Americans would not. Did you see American Idol?? Dancing with the Stars??? That NASCAR Race??? Who is sleeping with who or divorcing who in Hollywood???


From Event Horizon's post..

This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.

Alien technology.


Jesus was an alien, lifted up by the anti-gravity beam of a flying saucer.


LOL LOL LOL...now how is that for faith Greeny2???

That is just a version/variation of "Going where every other man has gone before."



You know...speaking of conspiracies Greeny2...

I know of a Baptist Minister who quit the church he was pastoring and formed his own church. He even left his state to do this.
What he got tired of..sick and disgusted of...was the Baptist Association leadership coming to him telling him what he could and could not preach and teach on. They wanted to censor him. They did not want him teaching and preaching the Whole Council of God.

What he was teaching and preaching on was Eastern Religions Including Freemasonry ..to show how and where they deviated from the Word of God from Ancient Times unto Today. How this other religion exists even in academia, in television, in movies..et al..while the Word of God is suppressed.
What he was also teaching was that many of these Eastern Religions were operating in the churches, including the church and religion of politics, without many even being aware of it. In the Baptist churches through church groups like the Royal Ambassadors.

Even through the Boy Scouts and into the Tall Cedars...

These groups are recruiting grounds for certain desired individuals into the Occult orders/religions..right in many of our churches.
But how about those Redskins?? Dancing with the Stars...NASCAR??

What the Baptist Association did not want taught ..was the Whole Council of God...such that the patterns of this world and the god of this world would not be known by most in these congregations. Thus the traditions of men could pass unseen and unknown by most Christians.
This is why you often see me say that many Christians are an ignorant lot...even about Christianity.

It is the same with this Shroud. So that you do not see what is behind it. What is not desired to be seen. To be seen only by those trained in it. To be seen only by a certain spiritual eye...not by the profane and outer world.

You don't have to buy into any of this ..it is just what I think and know.
And I have had several opportunities to have this verified by certain adepts schooled in it.

What you have here in this shroud..is a Catholic lodge passing on its relics and artifacts to both Catholics and non Catholics lodges...to keep them on the string.
There are churches out here who have no interest in Catholic lodge doctrine nor non catholic lodge doctrine and dogma.

You have going on out here a quiet war...been going on for centuries..albeit quietly now..between the catholic dogma and non catholic dogmas...but both of them being quietly played by another church and religion called politics.
The problem both of these churches have is that they are being quietly abandoned by the whorish religion called Politics..for another religion called Islam.
Islam is closer to the religion of politics in its private secretive nature than is Catholicism and non Catholicism. More vicious, more conspiratorial, more secretive, more double dealing. But they are all devout religions....including politics.
And politics, like many zealous religions, does not care who it sleeps with nor whose souls it sells for lucre/power. Including the soul of science.


This preacher of whom I spoke has broken away and joined a handful of small churches doing the same. But they will not organize and form an association. They will remain small independent churches as were the churches in the early days of Christianity. They do not want to become Nicolaitians as is the RCC and others.

They, a small group of churches, will go their own way to teach and preach the Whole Council of God. They will also teach and preach thier peoples..their flock... to know the patterns of things in Heaven and here on this earth. Not just the traditions of men..which we call secular...but both.

This is the nature of conspiracy Greeny2...even among scientists and thinkers.
The history and track record of men ..particularly natural men..is to rig the show for their purposes..the traditions of men.

This shroud is just one of the facets of the traditions of men.


Thanks,
Orangetom
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