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Proofs of God

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Postby at1with0 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:01 am

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/2011_08/ha ... of_god.pdf

Starting on page 30

and on wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_S._Hatcher



Written in first order logic, Hatcher's proof of God is based on three axioms that he calls "empirically grounded" and an apriori assumption that "something exists."

The axioms are that:

P1. The principle of sufficient reason: All phenomena are either self-caused (i.e. A->A) or other-caused (B->A; B is not equal to A) but not both. Put another way, this principle says that the question "why?" is always meaningful. Everything happens for a reason.

P2. The potency principle: If A -> B then for all C element of B, A -> C. In other words if A is the cause of B then A is the cause of every part of B. There are several notions of causality in philosophy. Hatcher's notion of causality is total causality; i.e. it is not the straw that breaks the camel's back but the 1000 straws before it, the camel, gravity, and so forth, that give rise to the camel breaking its back.

P3. The principle of limitation: For all A, where A is an element of B, B -> A does not hold. This says a system (which Hatcher represents as a set) cannot be the cause of its own components. Hatcher justifies this by explaining any system has (1) form (the parts) and (2) function (the relationship between the parts). A car (the system) cannot be the cause of its own steering wheel (a part), because the car does not even logically exist until the steering wheel exists. Thus the car's existence cannot precede the steering wheel's existence.

Hatcher shows that the logical outcome of these 3 axioms together with the above noted assumption are the existence of a "unique, universal, uncaused cause."

[...]
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Postby frrostedman » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:51 pm

The existence of a Creator, as you stated very eloquently and successfully, is simply logical.

The only question that remains, using this logic, is do we know the Creator and if so, which proposed God is the true one?
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby humphreys » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:28 am

I think, unless you can prove this first uncaused cause is sentient, you have no more logical right to call it God than I do to call it nature, or as I like to explain it "the laws of physics that exist in a state of complete nothingness".

Also, atheistic scientists have proposed similar mechanisms which they certainly do not refer to as God, such as Quantum Fluctuations in vacuum, and something I read about which I forget the exact term for, but it's basically a formula which tries to prove inflation occurs constantly in a multiverse, spawning an infinite number of bubble Universes within the whole.

I doubt Christians will be happy if you turn their God into the laws of physics!
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Postby bionic » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:33 am

We are God..we are some kind of collective..of some sort..we..us and everyhting around us..we are connected..yet..seperate. I don't know how this works..but I know..in my heart..it's true..and there is some kind of heirarchy..yet..I do not know how it works

believe me or not..whatever

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Postby at1with0 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:19 am

We are God only inasmuch as a rock is God. The holographic principle and all.

Ever notice that in Star Wars, the holographic form of someone during a long-distance phone call is the same as the luminous being Obi-Wan has? I just thought that was a curious move on Lucas' part.
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Postby greeney2 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:02 am

How do you know that when God created the Universe, God knew it had to include a specific law of physics to work properly? The basic forces in nature were created first?
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Postby at1with0 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:10 am

I'm not sure if you're addressing me but I'm not convinced that the universe is a creation.
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Postby greeney2 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:03 am

Humphrey mentioned physics. I also do not think the world was created at least in the bible explanation of it. I think the bible leaves us with the question of what a day was to God. Most people see Genesis as Monday to Friday, and a 24 hours day as we know it, literally. I believe in the creation, to the point of thinking from a complete void and nothing, God created the heavens and earth. How God did it, the process, and most important the time it took, is the question. If it took billions of years and the forces of nature, that could have been only the first day for God.

How do you answer "In the beginning, there was nothing, and world was just a void"? How Nothing was turned into something, and what forces could there be if there was nothing. Or was there ever just nothing? There had to be a beginning! Is there an end point to the Universe, but what is just past the end point if any? Another void? What law of physics covers turning nothing into something, let alone a universe? Even Science can not answer that one. Physics and science can not provide all these answers, at least yet.
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Postby humphreys » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:35 pm

I would think that perhaps laws of physics as we know them apply to states of existence, and that when there is no existence, there are no laws as such, so anything can happen, including something coming from nothing.

If you think about it, laws are simply restrictions applied to material things. Remove the material things, and you remove the restrictions.

No Universe=no laws, which means it's pointless to even apply logic to such a state. That's where the kinda arguments being made in the opening post fall apart.

We see a Universe, and use the logic of that Universe to determine how it came to be, which misses the point that prior to the Universe, the logic we are using did not even necessarily apply.

The same problem arises when we ask what came before the big bang. Well, the big bang was also the creation of time according to mainstream science, so the question becomes meaningless. What came before the big bang is like asking what is outside the Universe.
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Postby greeney2 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:59 pm

The 4 basic forces of nature cannot do a thing to "nothing or a complete void". Nothing means nothing, not a single atom, no matter whatsoever.
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