The Black Vault

That's a question I spent rather more than half a century on before I found an answer that satisfied me. Others may find their answers rather more quickly.
Lucky them.
(Yes, i think He was the Son of God, and along the way I may discuss some of the reasons that led me to that conclusion).
BUT FIRST:
Let me make it clear that while I can be called a Christian I am NOT what YOU might think of as a Christian.
I don't think being a Christian means one has to believe in Bishop Ussher's dating for the Creation of the world.
I don't think being a Christian means one has to throw out science.
I have never found anything in the Bible that requires that.
On the contrary, in fact.
I have found Science to be at fault because it doesn't INCLUDE enough. It is SCIENCE that tries reduce everything down to natural explanations that interferes with the Quest for Truth.
"But Pat Robertson said...."
I don't care what Pat Robertson said.
"But the Pope said...."
I don't care about HIM either.
I don't care about TV Evangelists, Christian Traditions, or the common misconceptions about what being a Christian means and how Christians are POPULARLY supposes to be and act.
NONE OF THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE TRUTH AS I HAVE COME TO KNOW IT.
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(We can talk about the reasons why i say that, too).
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But if you would read C. S. Lewis's SPACE TRILOGY you will find that there is no REAL reason why a Christian cannot believe in life (including INTELLIGENT life) existing on worlds beyond worlds..

Cass

Science and Faith have a lot in common. First they are both ongoing, second they both are subject to change on a daily basis, Third the conclusions are more often a consencous of many people. Process of elimination, that can all change by tommorrow morning. Science is not the absolute answer to our soul, and our soul is not really concerned with science.

shadowcass wrote:"But Pat Robertson said...."
I don't care what Pat Robertson said.
"But the Pope said...."
I don't care about HIM either.
I don't care about TV Evangelists, Christian Traditions, or the common misconceptions about what being a Christian means and how Christians are POPULARLY supposes to be and act.
NONE OF THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE TRUTH AS I HAVE COME TO KNOW IT.

I do not care what Pat Robertson, or the Pope, says either. Nor do I care about TV Evangelists or what the world thinks about Christians. I do care about Christian traditions as long as they are Biblically based and most of the crap that goes on in churches today is not Biblically based.

Jesus said in John that He was THE TRUTH. If that is the truth you have come to know than I rejoice with you.

greeney2 wrote:Science and Faith have a lot in common. First they are both ongoing, second they both are subject to change on a daily basis, Third the conclusions are more often a consencous of many people. Process of elimination, that can all change by tommorrow morning. Science is not the absolute answer to our soul, and our soul is not really concerned with science.

Well, to be fair...not all scientific knowledge (or religious knowledge either) can truly be said to be subject to change on a DAILY basis.

But I can see where one might have gotten that imoression

Secondly...one's soul should be VERY concerned with SCIENCE. I quote the first definition given in the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary: "the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding." Certainly, in THAT sense science is important.
To me...science is the search for Truth. Is Truth not important to the soul?

We can agree that many practitioners in BOTH fields have grossly misused them but that doesn't make them any less valuable to US.

God gave us our brains...one assumes He intended us to USE them

What I ment was new things are discovered in science everyday, and that everyday our Faith is tested according to what a day brings. Just speaking generally!

greeney2 wrote:What I ment was new things are discovered in science everyday, and that everyday our Faith is tested according to what a day brings. Just speaking generally!

I'm 61, how the hell do you think I feel? Most everthing I was taught in High Sciool and College has changed.

I was 28 before the Big Bang Theory took precedence over the "Steady-State Theory".

Pluto USED to be a planet. Not just a "dwarf planet" and it used to be the most distant planet in the Solar system...at least, most of the time it was. (Occasionally it comes THIS side of the orbit of Neptune as I'm sure you know) but now there are planets beyond it!!!

How many moons does earth have? One? Two? or more? Well, it depends on how you define a moon. ONE if it has to be gravity bound. But if all you need is a 1:1 orbital resonance with Earth we have several (Cruithne being the most famous thanks to the BBC series QI ("Quite Interesting" follow the link for a good laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1zuAQAhhMI

EVERYTHING has changed...they even tried to take the Triceratops away
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162- ... 01465.html

It's as though every teacher I ever had was just makjng stuff up...like Disney and the Lemming Myth you know
http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp

I sympathize with you greeney

greeney2 wrote:What I ment was new things are discovered in science everyday, and that everyday our Faith is tested according to what a day brings. Just speaking generally!

That is truth right there..
the humbleness of it is lovely
and one of the veyr basic point sof life, I believe
truth... real TRUTH..the genuine yearning for it... humbles one
as it is meant to
"I know that I know nothing"

bionic wrote:

greeney2 wrote:What I ment was new things are discovered in science everyday, and that everyday our Faith is tested according to what a day brings. Just speaking generally!

That is truth right there..
the humbleness of it is lovely
and one of the veyr basic point sof life, I believe
truth... real TRUTH..the genuine yearning for it... humbles one
as it is meant to
"I know that I know nothing"

To realize that one knows nothing is a good place to BEGIN...but one is not intended to remain in that state

Now, as I said previously...it took me something over half a century to find answers that satisfied me. I sought EVERYWHERE during those years..I studied under Israel Regardie at the Thelemic Temple of the Golden Dawn in Los Angeles...I hung out with Alan Watts at his houseboat in Sausalito....

The point is I studied with many teachers...in addition to my years in Seminary. I left THERE because I could not accept that one HAD to be a follower of Jesus Christ in order to attain...(insert your favorite word here--salvation, enlightenmen, oneness...whatever).

I still don't believe that.

Oh, I know...Christians will beat you to death with verses like "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;"

--Philippians 2:10.

I'm not saying there may not come a day when that will happen...maybe it will. But this I know: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16).

Now what if someone is believing in Him but doesn't know the NAME of the One they believe in? What if they call on ANOTHER name but the Being they are worshipping in spirit and in truth is really IDENTICAL with the one I call Jesus?

Will He not claim them?

The Gospels say He ransomed the whole Earth on the Cross on Golgotha. Can He not, then, call anyone He chooses? Be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, Taoist, Buddhist, or WHATEVER?

"MUSLIM?" some here might say.

Why not? Consider Hallaj:

"I am the One whom I love,
and the One whom I love is myself.
We are two souls incarnated in one body;
if you see me, you see Him,
if you see Him, you see us.

Your spirit is mingled with mine
as wine is mixed with water;
whatever touches you touches me.
In all the stations of the soul you are I.

Kill me, my faithful friends,
For in my being killed is my life.
Love is that you remain standing
In front of your Beloved
When you are stripped of all your attributes;
Then His attributes become your qualities.
Between me and You, there is only me.
Take away the me, so only You remain."

---Mansur Hallaj.
Again, Hallaj said: "I saw my Lord with the eye of the heart. I asked: Who art Thou?
He answered: Thou."

And, one more: "•People image that it is a presumptive claim, whereas it is really a presumtive claim to say “I am the slave of God”; and “I am God” is an expression of great humility. The man who says “I am the slave of God” affirms two existences, his own and God’s, but he that says “I am God” has made himself non-existent and has given himself up and says “I am God”, that is, “I am naught, He is all; there is no being but God’s.” This is the extreme of humility and self-abasement. "

Do you really think Jesus would not know this man...this Hallaj?

If yhou do...you don't know Jesus very well

(Incidentally..for those who don't know Hallaj was was publicly executed on March 26, 922.
For heresy.

Well the hound of Dracula is here shadow case.
and to you question I think he was both.

Lets have a chronology of him first.

1AD to 12AD He is born in Nazareth circumcised on the 8th day . Parents and Jesus flee and stay in Egypt for a short stay to come back to Galilee.
He has his Bar Mitzvah in Jerusalem

12 AD to 30 AD whereabouts unknown

30 AD Jesus is baptized, begins his ministry, and select 12 disciples. The first time for declaring himself as the Messiah he is rejected as the messiah by his parents and driven out of Nazareth by the townspeople.
Later on Jesus gets Peter to say and reveal to the other apostles that he is the Messiah. One week before his crucifixion the Transfiguration happens where he meets Elijah and Moses in a glowing light ( IMO a ufo ). on mount Hermon.
He predicts three times that he will be arrested tried crucified and risen in three days.

Strange is John is the only one of the evangelists that says that Jesus raised Lazarus from death. Why the others like Mark, Mathew ,Luke and Paul do not mention one word of this is in the other gospels. It would of been very important event.
The Gospel according to John was written around 110 AD.
Still around 30 AD Jesus heads for Jerusalem and is hailed by a crowd of Jews shouting Hoshana meaning save us son of David ( Heir to the throne of Israel with palm trees which was is a sign of victory at the time. The Jews following him tough he was the Messiah the anointed and the descendant of David to be king of Israel the King of the Jews and get rid of the Romain Empire who were the oppressors.

Later just before he is arrested there is the famous cleansing of the temple. Jesus, his disciples and the multitude that join him along the road of Jericho were mostly armed Zealots and seized the temple by force and held it for 5 days.
When the rebellion collapsed the Jews arrested some zealots by there temple police force and handed them to the Romans. The Romans having heard of this subterfuge demanded that Jesus be handed over to them.

The trial was headed by Pilate and Jesus was crucified which was the way the Romans executed traitors to the empire for sedition and treason.
Jesus was crucified with two other zealots ( They were not thieves but rebels ) it was baddy translated. The two zealots were the ones captured at the battle of the Tower of Siloam as mentioned in Luke . Jesus was crucified like the other two because they were rebels and revolutionaries considered like today terrorists. The two zealot rebels were captured at the the battle on temple grounds.

Jesus was later on pick up by Pilate who sent a cohort of soldiers to arrest Jesus. A roman cohort was composed of 400 to 600 hundred men.

Why would be such a number of soldiers to arrest an unarmed Jesus. Pilot knew that his disciples and others if present would be armed.

The reasons why his disciples fled was because they knew that if they would of been captured they would of been tried for being zealot rebels and for sedition.
They would of been crucified too.

31 AD to 33 AD The surviving disciples found the Apostolic Church which was an early Jewish christian sect called the Nazarenes who attended Jewish temple worshiping Moses and Jesus.
At the same time Apostle Stephen is stoned for blasphemy for saying that Jesus is the son of God. Paul a member of the stoning mob becomes persecutor of Christians.

P.S. Jesus preached his kingdom of God throughout Galilee and Judea for an entire year without getting into trouble.
The trouble started only after he entered Jerusalem and became a political suspect in the eyes of the Romans.

I think he was a super nut in mastering his own crucifixion like with all other conditions to prove that he was the Messiah according to scriptures.
I think that he was really dealing with supernatural entities and plans with Extraterrestrials like Elijah and Moses that had come back in a luminous cloud UFO and converse with him one week prior to his crucifixion.