Test

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Re: Test

Postby Tairaa » Tue May 03, 2011 8:42 pm

First of all thank you for outlining something that I can respond to, I appreciate the clarity with which you have offered your opinion, sincerely.

What you're asking is tantamount to asking whether a forest takes any action as in my analogy the forest is the universe and all the trees and foliage are all constituents of said forest. I can see why it's tempting to think the forest doesn't ostensibly "do" anything. The forest is somewhat abstract and how can anything abstract "do" anything? Well, a forest can burn down, it can expand and contract, it can change its shape..hell, there are lots of things "the collection" can do.


But the forest, while taking and being possible of taking, many many actions, does nothing objectively. It is, and it does, but it does not try or attempt anything, there is no objective.


These laws you're talking about are merely our best conclusions that fit the data. Having these "laws" articulated does not preclude the possibility of something unexpected happening, like the fine structure constant varying in different parts of the universe. I think it smacks of arrogance to basically say "we have observed a pattern many times (but for a relatively short time) from one tiny corner of the universe and therefore those patterns must be present everywhere in the universe forever." Arrogance at the least and incorrect reasoning at worst.


No, that sounds like a theory that fits all the data. These laws, such as thermodynamics, aerodynamics, etc, are not simply conclusions that fit all the data, they are an observed rule. A pendulum will perform as expected EVERY time. Airplanes do not spontaneously fall out of the air, entropy in a system does not randomly reverse. If all the variables in an equation are the same, the answer will always be the same. You're a mathematician if I remember correctly, you should know this. Only different variables can yield a different answer. There MAY be shortcuts to a given rule, and that is hard to determine. But do you think the universe is so unstable that physical laws are only followed sometimes? Well if that's the case god must exist, but there's no indication that that is the case. Gravity remains a constant, so does electromagnetism, the weak and strong nuclear forces, photons always behave the same way they have since we knew they existed.


That is induction, not deduction. Induction, tantamount to extrapolation, is logical but being such isn't enough to prove the patterns we have seen will be the pattern we will see. To think that science as we know it is not open to revision is equivalent to closed mindedness and shutting off our imagination.


One area we absolutely agree on.


It reminds me of an IQ test where you're given a sequence of numbers and you're asked to predict the next number in the sequence. In my analogy, the sequence of numbers represents data collected from observation. The pattern in the given sequence is the so called physical LAW. The problem is that there are literally infinitely many different patterns that equally well (perfectly) fit the data. So which ones out of that infinite sea of patterns is "the" law?


Not so. Continuance of a pattern is seperate to observation under controlled variables. Similar, I see where you're deriving your opinion, but I don't see that as a valid analogy.
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Re: Test

Postby DIss0n80r » Tue May 03, 2011 8:50 pm

If something literally is its behavior, does that make it a constant?
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Re: Test

Postby Tairaa » Tue May 03, 2011 8:54 pm

DIss0n80r wrote:Oh and as for Tairaa, see my sig. I might also add that she seems to get defensive and hostile rather easily. Perhaps she is insecure and feels others think they are superior and are belittling her? Perhaps she has trouble controlling her prosodic projections? I dunno.



If you'd bloody well say what you mean it wouldn't be so difficult. Note my directness. You know what I mean, cuz I SAY it. Also, I'm not hostile, what I am is easily aggravated. I'm trying to have a discussion and you're being ridiculous on purpose. I am irritated by that.

Your original argument (or whatever you wish to call it) is meant to entail that talking to god is absurd yet when I make the modified argument, the conclusion should be that talking to a confidant is absurd. But talking to a confidant isn't inherently absurd.


Difference being a confidant is demonstrably real. Unless the confidant is imaginary.

That's like me saying, if I replace E with P than the equation is P=MC^2. Clearly momentum isn't equal to the squared velocity of light times mass.

Talking to a confidant isn't ridiculous, talking to a confidant through a hair dryer IS. Yes. Which is why people would say it's ridiculous to talk to god through a hair dryer.
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Re: Test

Postby DIss0n80r » Tue May 03, 2011 9:00 pm

Tairaa wrote:
DIss0n80r wrote:Oh and as for Tairaa, see my sig. I might also add that she seems to get defensive and hostile rather easily. Perhaps she is insecure and feels others think they are superior and are belittling her? Perhaps she has trouble controlling her prosodic projections? I dunno.



If you'd bloody well say what you mean it wouldn't be so difficult. Note my directness. You know what I mean, cuz I SAY it. Also, I'm not hostile, what I am is easily aggravated. I'm trying to have a discussion and you're being ridiculous on purpose. I am irritated by that.


But then I'd have to do more thinking myself, and not have you do it for me! :snooty:

(BTW thanks for the tip)

PS How's the bait taste? :P
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Re: Test

Postby Tairaa » Tue May 03, 2011 9:04 pm

DIss0n80r wrote:If something literally is its behavior, does that make it a constant?


Give me an example, gravity literally is gravity. I don't get it, elaborate.


Also, what useful ideas have you presented that I haven't understood? And also, lack of agreeing does not mean lack of comprehension.

The bait tastes like the rest of your posts, to be perfectly frank. Is it worth your time to troll around? I mean, I may be irritated at times by it (not right now for instance) but as soon as I go away from the post I'm not. And it doesn't even work all the time either, so does it amuse you or something?
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Re: Test

Postby Tairaa » Tue May 03, 2011 9:05 pm

Also, I'm not a woman, thanks.
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Re: Test

Postby at1with0 » Tue May 03, 2011 9:09 pm

We are off on some tangent. I'll be happy to entertain your thoughts but let's not forget that pantheism does disprove the claim that belief in God is irrational, as per your "test".

But the forest, while taking and being possible of taking, many many actions, does nothing objectively. It is, and it does, but it does not try or attempt anything, there is no objective.

Taking action is doing something.
The objective of the forest is to maintain and flourish, and grow.


No, that sounds like a theory that fits all the data. These laws, such as thermodynamics, aerodynamics, etc, are not simply conclusions that fit all the data, they are an observed rule.

What's the difference? Being an observed rule means the conclusion (such as laws of thermodynamics) fits the data.


A pendulum will perform as expected EVERY time.

Oh ye of great faith. What if that pendulum is on the other side of the universe? Are you sure it's going to behave as expected?
Like I said, this type of reasoning is induction, not deduction.


Airplanes do not spontaneously fall out of the air, entropy in a system does not randomly reverse.

Like I said, I think it smacks of arrogance to basically say "we have observed a pattern many times (but for a relatively short time) from one tiny corner of the universe and therefore those patterns must be present everywhere in the universe forever."


If all the variables in an equation are the same, the answer will always be the same. You're a mathematician if I remember correctly, you should know this.

Answer? :P If you mean 1+1 will always be 2, for instance, that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

But do you think the universe is so unstable that physical laws are only followed sometimes?

No, I'm saying we don't KNOW that we know the correct physical laws nor do we know if what happened in the past MUST happen in the future.

It reminds me of an IQ test where you're given a sequence of numbers and you're asked to predict the next number in the sequence. In my analogy, the sequence of numbers represents data collected from observation. The pattern in the given sequence is the so called physical LAW. The problem is that there are literally infinitely many different patterns that equally well (perfectly) fit the data. So which ones out of that infinite sea of patterns is "the" law?


Not so. Continuance of a pattern is seperate to observation under controlled variables. Similar, I see where you're deriving your opinion, but I don't see that as a valid analogy.

Yes so. A law of thermodynamics was written in order to elaborate on a pattern among observations.
Like the observation of numbers in a sequence.
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Re: Test

Postby at1with0 » Tue May 03, 2011 9:13 pm

Tairaa wrote:Difference being a confidant is demonstrably real. Unless the confidant is imaginary.

Your passage doesn't prove the confidant is imaginary. That's my point.
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Re: Test

Postby Tairaa » Tue May 03, 2011 9:19 pm

My point is if the confidant isn't imaginary he or she is demonstrably real. God is not demonstrably real.

I will respond to the rest tomorrow, but for now I'm going to bed, good night all. Even you, mildly amusing troll man.
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Re: Test

Postby DIss0n80r » Tue May 03, 2011 9:24 pm

Tairaa wrote:
DIss0n80r wrote:If something literally is its behavior, does that make it a constant?


Give me an example, gravity literally is gravity. I don't get it, elaborate.


Also, what useful ideas have you presented that I haven't understood? And also, lack of agreeing does not mean lack of comprehension.

The bait tastes like the rest of your posts, to be perfectly frank. Is it worth your time to troll around? I mean, I may be irritated at times by it (not right now for instance) but as soon as I go away from the post I'm not. And it doesn't even work all the time either, so does it amuse you or something?


Tairaa wrote:Also, I'm not a woman, thanks.



You're welcome? :)

I think it's more useful (and fun!) to explore possibilities and ask questions (as annoying and dumb as they may seem to some) than to simply regurgitate the consensus.

As for my question, I just wondered if constants are as constant as they appear. The question was not even particularly directed at you.

Anyways, this whole business of demonstrating what's real is a bit shady, if you ask me. How exactly do we have to demonstrate something in order to prove its reality? What about thoughts and emotions? Are they real? Does a kiss prove the existence of love? Does cogito ergo sum prove the existence of thought?

I'm more concerned with validity of a proving process than its results.
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