The Black Vault

CodeBlackv2 wrote:Cryptographers use celestial phenomenon as random number generators, but common sense tells one that those events have a cause.

Would you call the principles of quantum mechanics common sense?

Pretty sure I was destined to disagree. It's just in my nature.

I'm not destined to disagree with you. I can change my mind at any time.

Only to show that just because we cannot determine the exact cause of an event does not mean that there isn't one.

Yep.

at1with0 wrote:If there is that indeterminacy, then destiny flies out the window in agreement with what I said (though for entirely different reasons).

Not quite. It just means that the point at which the inevitability becomes realized is moved further out in time.

As for what Bionic is talking about, I hope it doesn't become an Olympic sport.

The only thing that will prove that inevitability you're talking about with the fate of the universe is for that time to be realized.

the idea of the black swan comes to mind, here, again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

also Terrence Mckenna and his "Novelty theory"
http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/Arti ... arity.html

Weren't we just discussing th esingularity somewhere around here?
I believe randomness is a type of energy..it's not like the Butterfly Effect..but might play a role in it
it's hard to predict all things in such a complex system, with so many variables interacting..
this is where chaos and complexity come in
it seems like chaos, randomness, but is is simply too somplex for our puny brains to wrap around..any event..
that's the idea, right?

but Black Swans...
Novelty events..
they ar eincreasing..terrence Mckenna believed it wa sleading to the singulariyt..variables interacting were leading to some kind of critical mass (2012)

the supposed randomness probaly being the sutff that comes form A-LOT (massive understatement) of varibales, constantly intereacting with each other

I am beginning to wonder, though..if there is something more going on

An, as yet, undiscovered by product type of energy that comes off variables interacting. A sort of thrown off bit of ether/ectoplasm.soemthing or other. Kind of like static electricity. A build up or something, that when it gets to a certain point, there's a lightening strike..a black swan event..a completely unexplainable, unpredictable willy nilly moent..that in some magical way ADDS to it all..existence (maybe a God growth spurt..God's supposed ever expansion, kept in mind)

and maybe becaus einteractions, via the net and such..and th einformation age.have gone off the charts..this energy is building quicker thna it can dispense off?

thoughts?

Free will, the capacity for humans to make decisions is something that flies in the face of destiny.
Are black swan events destined to happen? It's sometimes hard to say whether events that have occurred were destined to occur. I would say that events that happened as a result of a decision that could have gone another way were not destined to happen. The 9/11 attack, for example, was a product of a decision by humans and was not destined to occur. When I flip a coin, it's destined to land in one of three ways: heads, tails, or on its side (in very rare occasions). The unpredictable isn't the same as the unpredicted. The unpredictable is not destined to occur and lots of the time, human behavior and decision making is unpredictable.

I think you can have free will and destiny at the same time. My scenario where the inevitability is applied at the end of the universe is the best case scenario, but not the only one possible. The universe is going to end. Its almost a provable thing these days. And if there is one inevitability, there's another and another.

What we think is random is not completely so. Its just that the cause is beyond our current ability to measure. If people can predict the future then the future can be known.

CodeBlackv2 wrote:I think you can have free will and destiny at the same time. My scenario where the inevitability is applied at the end of the universe is the best case scenario, but not the only one possible. The universe is going to end. Its almost a provable thing these days. And if there is one inevitability, there's another and another.

The physical universe might end, if you exclude space from being a part of the universe. It's not even close to provable what the boundary conditions of the physical universe are, especially the end conditions. For one thing, the laws of physics aren't even necessarily the same everywhere.

What we think is random is not completely so. Its just that the cause is beyond our current ability to measure. If people can predict the future then the future can be known.

What about the behavior of quanta, is that just beyond our current ability to measure or is it unpredictable? I definitely agree that genuine randomness is hard to come by. If someone likes to define random in terms of compressibility of the data, it is very hard to prove that such and such data is genuinely random (incompressible).

I'm not sure what part the boundary of space plays in the question of deterministic outcomes. The universe may expand forever into nothingness. Stars will all die out. Or the universe may stop expanding and collapse. Either way you get infinite darkness.

Several new black holes are formed every day. And how many days have their been since the beginning of the U? Answer: 5 trillion. That adds up to a lot of black holes.

CodeBlackv2 wrote:I'm not sure what part the boundary of space plays in the question of deterministic outcomes. The universe may expand forever into nothingness. Stars will all die out. Or the universe may stop expanding and collapse. Either way you get infinite darkness.

You don't know that for sure.

Several new black holes are formed every day. And how many days have their been since the beginning of the U? Answer: 5 trillion. That adds up to a lot of black holes.

And you're suggesting that eventually they will die out faster than they form without really knowing if that is the case. We can't even predict the weather. Why would someone think that the "fate" of the universe is any more predictable?

The question of destiny can boil down to whether or not absolutely every process in existence is deterministic. At the very least, some artificial processes are non-deterministic. The behavior of quanta and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle as well as the human mind's ability to choose differently offer some hope that some processes are non-deterministic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminism

However, the advent of quantum mechanics removed the underpinning from that approach, with the claim that (at least according to the Copenhagen interpretation) the most basic constituents of matter at times behave indeterministically, in accordance with such properties as the uncertainty principle. Quantum indeterminism was controversial on its introduction, with Einstein among the opposition, but gradually gained ground. Experiments confirmed the correctness of quantum mechanics, with a test of the Bell's theorem by Alain Aspect being particularly important because it showed that determinism and locality cannot both be true. Although, Bohmian quantum mechanics can still be made as an argument for determinism (albeit at the expense of special relativity).

Well, you're touching on a wide breadth of physics. First, the rate of formation of black holes looks to be far more important than the formation of stars. And the formation of black holes far exceeds their rate of dissipation.

HUP. simply put, says that you cannot know the location and the velocity of a particle at the same time to a high degree of accuracy. But that is really just putting a rule to something we don't completely understand because we cannot measure down to the level necessary to work out those values simultaneously. We aren't fast enough and we can't see small enough. We have to use the laws of physics to measure the laws of physics and that is an inherent limitation.

For quantum behavior its just more of the above.

Leads you here, despite your destination.
Under the Milky Way

The universe has a fixed amount of matter. Some portion of that matter exists in stars. All stars die. The rate of formation of black holes is quite high and black holes effectively remove matter from the universe, or at least make it inaccessible to form stars. So therefore it is only a matter of time before there is no more matter available to form stars and the number of black holes is great enough to overwhelm the number of stars. And then the inevitable happens. All horizons dim.