The Black Vault

Brother and Sister Americans, no longer should we have to accept gun violence. Far too many loved ones and innocent people have been lost.
Often it is a child. Each good person killed by a gun changes how the future would have played out. Leaving some of us wondering about the path
that will never be taken. How many more of our own must be lost to a broken system? How many more must die before the blood flows in the streets
like a river. How many more must be lost before our elected leaders wake up and realize the problem exists. How horrific will an incident have to be
before the public outrage becomes a storm the likes of which have not been seen since the days of The Civil Rights Movement.

Make no mistake. I am not advocating against the Constitutional right to bear arms for law abiding citizens. Here is the link that inspired me to speak up.
As I felt I must.

http://www.fixgunchecks.org/splash

Your website gives a current count of those killed with guns since Tucson. The shooter in Tucson bought his guns legally, and went through the required DOD and felony checks, before taking delivery of the guns. They were not illegal guns. His guns were purchased legally from a legitamate sporting goods store that did everything properly.

greeney2 wrote:Your website gives a current count of those killed with guns since Tucson. The shooter in Tucson bought his guns legally, and went through the required DOD and felony checks, before taking delivery of the guns. They were not illegal guns. His guns were purchased legally from a legitamate sporting goods store that did everything properly.

I can't speak to what the link says because I got it off of Facebook. Either way the point I made is still valid. The gun check system MUST be changed.
I've heard it's easier to buy a gun then to get someone to make you pancakes. That's ed up.

If the link used the Tucson shooting and the guy bought his legally then it's a bad move on their part. I didn't write the article and if I did had I known that
I wouldn't have.

Let me also say again I'm not saying we need to take away all guns. If Ted Nuggent and his friends want to fire away of his large property at a bunch of targets then go for it.

I think your link wasn't the best but this is actually a very good subject. The reason is shooters like the Tucson shooter are the rarity in what we should worry about as far as guns being used on us. We hear about the deranged nuts like Tucson, who have bought guns legally, only to turn out to have had known mental problems. In the Tucson case, was it the fault of the gun laws, or was it the fault of not using exsisting Arizona laws to have placed this person into a mental facilty? Which laws failed in this case? The gun buying laws worked, but what failed were the law where the school system, or the police failing to have him committed. In that State, this can be done, and his behavior with the school and cops was enough. The point is what makes the NEWS are tragic events like this, and sometimes mental problems are connected with them. However in all of those cases, almost none would qualify as insanity plea, because they still knew right from wrong.

The real issue is not you and I buying guns legally, and the cases like Tucson having a link to some mental/emotional problems. What do you propose, anyone who has ever had mental or emotional therapy, never be able to have a gun? anyone with a issue of anysort of therapy from smoking to overeating, drug abuse, Alcohol, domestic? Seeing a Phyciatrist for anything from fear of heights to flying, going outside, its a long list, so do we brand anyone having any such care as a risK? We have about 50K traffic deaths per year, half at least from Drunks, so does anyone with a drinking problem immediatly have their drivers licence revoked as a risk?

The big issue is the gangs and bad guy who have millions of stolen guns, that are used on innocent people. That death counter since Tucson on your link, which was up to about 1500 shooting deaths, how many were from people like the tucson shooter, and how many were from gang/drug related crimes and done with guns that were stolen? Rules are for the good guys, and the bad guys who can not use those rules, find ways around them. The can not buy guns legally, so they get them illegally, usually by theft, or buying already stolen guns. Felons can not own guns or buy them, so they get them from other thiefs. The answer is controlling that, not further clamping down on everyone that goes by the rules to begin with. In the Tucson case, people also have the right to have their medical conditions private, so how would you have a system that allowed doctors confidentiality, and be able to have a data base of everyone who recieved mental treatment, if he was never committed?

You bring up some great points greeney2. It's now obvious to me that this is a far more complex issue than I thought.

I admit I haven't been a strong advocate for anything yet. I haven't even been posting political stuff on message boards or Facebook until recently.
I remember one thing I felt the need to post and ever since then it's like the flood gates opened.

I'll have to look at this further. Any advice? Or does anyone else want to contribute to the conversation. More voices being heard puts more ideas
and information into the pot and together we can come up with something.

Welcome to the BV by the way. I was gone on a vacation last week when you joined. You will find around here that many subject can get very heated, and this is probably one of them. You will have the side that is totally against any further gun control, and you will have people who do not even believe in have their kids grow up playing cowboys and have a capgun. People like Rosie O'donell is outspoken about taking away every gun, and abolishing hunting completly.

People just need to say "gun control", and they go nuts over it. Canada has gun control, and the perception is nobody can have guns, however ask any Canadian. I'd like to know what there handgun policies are, becasue Canada has many places where have a 44 magnum in Bear country is a nessesity. I'm sure you would always have someone say justs use pepper spray if you have a Bear encounter. I know that Canadians are outdoorman, and hunting is a way of life so what guns are they not allowed to have, or what is the proceedure to buy them or ammo? Our Constitution was not imagining the kind of things you can buy today, anymore than hard core porn, when they wrote about freedom of the press.

No doubt about it, we have a problem, but is the problem guns, people, or failure to follow existing laws. We plea bargain everything, California was letting thousands of felons out of prison due to budgets, and let real lunitics out of mental hospitals that kill people within weeks or months. We have hard drunk driving laws, but everyday you read about one more. Actually its so common, like gun murders, only the worst or the worst make the news. There is just too many of them. Los Angeles can have as many as 10 murders on a weekend.

I know one thing for sure. I goto the Bass Pro Shops all the time, and see thousands of sportsman, fishermen, and hunters, all buying by legal means. I do not see droves of gang bangers, and gang members flocking to the Bass Pro Shop, or the Big Five, buying guns. I also do not see them at gun shows I;ve gone to. Guns shows also abide by the laws of 10 day DOD applications. Many have thought the law did not apply to old guns, like a 1920's antique becasue they never were registered to begin with, however that has all changed. The gang bangers aren't looking for and old Winchester 30-30 either.

Any suggestions how you can regulate the guns away from those who use them for illegal things better? My opinion is to stop making the good guys put up with new restictions, that never affect those living in lives of crime anyway.

greeney2 wrote:Welcome to the BV by the way. I was gone on a vacation last week when you joined.

Thank you. I much enjoyed the time I've been here allready. It's great to have a place to discuss paranormal issues with like minded persons and not be persecuted by those who are not. I was posting on a non paranormal board and had a non believer counter everything I said. It's not why I joined here though.
They just happened to take place around the same time.

I've actually been a fan of The Black Vault since it was just FOIA documents in zip files. Then I found the Encyclopedia. Some good stuff on there. So I'm happy to have a place where I can post a theory I come up with or report I find either on the net or in a book. Be it paranormal or mainstream science. Both of which are major intrests of mine.

Hopefully you'll post something about your vacation in an appropriate thread.

greeney2 wrote:You will find around here that many subject can get very heated, and this is probably one of them.

This is why I've stayed out of political threads of all kinds until now. But a person can only take so much before they're compelled to speak up. I think it was my Brothers, Sisters, AMERICANS speach that finally did it. Like poking a hole in a damn. I posted those words and since then I've felt a bit political. When I see something I believe in I post it. Whereas I would have kept quiet before. But I shall no longer. The stakes are too high. And it looks like the board has a section for threads that get out of hand but can still continue.

greeney2 wrote:Canada has gun control, and the perception is nobody can have guns, however ask any Canadian. I'd like to know what there handgun policies are, becasue Canada has many places where have a 44 magnum in Bear country is a nessesity.

Canada's problem as I understand it is there's a guns for drugs understanding with criminal organizations there and the U.S. Biker gangs or others give Canadian criminals guns in exchange for drugs. Meth and whatnot. I saw this on an episode of History Chanel's Gangland.

greeney2 wrote: I'm sure you would always have someone say justs use pepper spray if you have a Bear encounter.

Let the anti gun fanatics try pepper spray on a bear. I like being alive.

greeney2 wrote:Our Constitution was not imagining the kind of things you can buy today, anymore than hard core porn, when they wrote about freedom of the press.

That's probably the core of the issue. The right to bear arms made more sense back then when you needed to hunt for food or protect yourself from highwaymen and such. Now the hunting is by choice and we go to the grocery store for food.

greeney2 wrote:No doubt about it, we have a problem, but is the problem guns, people, or failure to follow existing laws.

I'd say it's people and more broadly human nature. We are who we are as a race. Killing each other has been a way of life since before civilization.

greeney2 wrote:We plea bargain everything, California was letting thousands of felons out of prison due to budgets, and let real lunitics out of mental hospitals that kill people within weeks or months. We have hard drunk driving laws, but everyday you read about one more. Actually its so common, like gun murders, only the worst or the worst make the news. There is just too many of them. Los Angeles can have as many as 10 murders on a weekend.

California's gun problem is definately gang related. With LA you have the two most famous gangs. The Bloods and the Crips. Then you've got the hispanic gangs in their neighborhoods. Plus any southern border state has a problem with drug cartels. I hear some Texas cities are all but official warzones.

greeney2 wrote:Any suggestions how you can regulate the guns away from those who use them for illegal things better? My opinion is to stop making the good guys put up with new restictions, that never affect those living in lives of crime anyway.

We expand what law enforcement is allowed to do. The current system isn't working and when something doesn't work you're supposed to fix it. The problem law enforcement has is they have to play by a set of rules. Criminals have no such barrier in their way. So I'd say start with a complete review of the current system and get some think tank operation to come up with ways to fix it. Just have some people come up with ideas and present them to whoever needs to be informed.

I'd suggest including raids and crackdowns in major crime areas. I live near Camden New Jersey and some fool decided to cut the police force. This will make a bad situation worse. The murder rate will rise and have less police to deal with it. I understand financial times are tough but what did we keep if the police got cut. My guess is some powers that be type got to keep their slice of the pie and inocent people will pay the price to keep someone's profits up.