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Right and Wrong....

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby Kadara » Mon May 04, 2009 4:53 pm

So we are going to look past Religious or atheist views and just to start out look at this in simply the view of a human being. The question being; What is right and wrong, what makes right right or wrong wrong? Ie: Suppose you a stranger set your cupcake down on a table and stepped away to get a drink and I pick up and ate your cupcake. Would this be right or wrong? Why? What are the things we consider right or wrong, we have a code of morality that is fairly common everywhere, not every one follows it but most every one I know aggrees that it exists. This code says don't kill another human being without just cause, What is just cause? Don't steal. Don't lie. These things naturaly conflict with our conscience why?
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Postby Questioner101 » Mon May 04, 2009 5:02 pm

Well, depends...if you steal my cupcake, I might get my "buddies" to steal you potato-chips....

It's people, having to live with other people....they make up the rules of culture.
"I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request."
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Postby greeney2 » Mon May 04, 2009 7:24 pm

If you want to not include religious views why post it in this section, like things that make you think forum? Obviously, you do not want to acknowledge some peoples sense of right and wrong is religion based, in addition to other things. Your parameters for the answer are unfair, and you have a loaded question to begin with. A baby doesn't know not to pickup the cupcake, any more than a dog who found your steak unattended while went to the frig for a beer. Your senerio leaves facts to be assumed. The ages of the subjects, were they perfect strangers, brothers or sisters, made at each other, revenge, starving, senile, or just couldn;t care less if they ate off someones plate. Obviously one has to access cupcake ownership first, to justify taking the cupcake at all. If you know it isn;t yours, that tells you if its right or wrong.

I understand your meaning in a way, its kind of the same thing as social graces or boundries. Things that are just common sense or unwritten rules. Although taking a cupcake you know isn't yours, is a written rule, in our legal system and religions. And the question is the bulk of our laws are derived from religious things, like the 10 Commandments.

Can you show whatever code you go by, doesn't actually have its roots from Judeo/Christian beliefs?

Nobody likes a cupcake caper. :lol:
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Postby Kadara » Tue May 05, 2009 12:25 am

Sorry I'm not yet adept at the whole creating scenarios for internet scrutiny yet, so not all of those boundaries were added, yet I did mention that they were perfect strangers, lets add that they had had no contact or dispute. As to why I posted it here, its an intro, a question that will eventually lead to a point. K so you stated that it was wrong if it wasn't your muffin. why? as to the 10 commandments yes we do derive concepts from these but think back, not all cultures had this Christian or Jewish concept, yet even cultures such as the native american tribes decreed that stealing from your fellow tribesman was a punnishable crime. How did this concept of stealing or wrong come to be so wide spread, so that it is almost every where? The culture deems this wrong? I think not because were this the sentiment then some cultures would be different, yet I know of no culture that allows stealing... well maybe not allows but does not acknowledge that that is precicely how it is veiwed, stealing. Where is this concept of right and wrong that is on the whole so universally simular come from?
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Postby greeney2 » Tue May 05, 2009 9:43 am

I guess if you really want to go back in history, you need to go back to the dawn of man. Forgetting any stories of Adam and Eve as a beginning, early man was a hunter and gatherer, and at somepoint in early man, tribes(for the lack of better words) learned that if they took form other tribes they could eat. Man has had wars ever since. When did tribes become countries? When did countries counquer other counties, just to take their cupcakes. At some point learned to get along as a better alternative learning to barter and trade, and became more and more civilized. At some other point Early man evolved into modern man, but thruout man he has always looked twards some kind of God. To me its pretty hard to separate our concepts of right and wrong origins didn't come from a relgion based idea. Man has a different ability to think and reason from the animal kingdom. Did the concepts of trading and bartering, defining ownership, come from early mans depending on the Gods they worshipped, no written history other than cave drawings tell us that. What ever cave drawerings may have been, that evolved into modern mans written scrolls and documents. We know that many cultures and religions have written historys, and most every culture has strong roots in religions. We have centered modern man evolved from the cradle of civilization.
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Postby screamzero » Tue May 05, 2009 3:45 pm

If ya piss 'em off it's wrong. If ya piss 'em off and they want to rip your head off....kill 'em...now figure it out.
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Postby greeney2 » Tue May 05, 2009 4:49 pm

Now we are ready for your punchline of why we k now right from wrong. Lets here your opinion now.
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Postby Nesaie » Wed May 06, 2009 10:22 pm

Hey, I like the question. I think it's very valid in this forum. Often, when debating around here morality comes into play. This could also go in questions that make you think. Many of these forums have crossover, it is the nature of discussion between humans.

To answer your question Kadara, for me, I've always had this inside thing. If I thought about doing something, like steal a cupcake, my body would kinda react. It's hard to explain with words, let alone on line. :( But, I know that for me, it doesn't come from a book or a law or a rule. It comes from an instinct or something.

I remember as a kid, 8 yrs old, we had this math puzzle. It was a dot to dot. In order to get to the right dots we had to add numbers together to get the next number. I cheated. I thought I could do the dot to dot without doing the math. My teacher called me on it. I knew it was wrong. I started crying and was very upset. I learned that day to not cheat, even if I think there is an easier way of doing it. This may sound like a stupid story, but it is a lesson that has lived with me all my life. When I was doing it, I knew it was wrong. Nobody told me it was wrong...I just knew it while I was doing it.
Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky
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Postby Kadara » Thu May 07, 2009 1:48 am

Thanks Nes, Though, *blush, as I said my question leads into other things, btw greeny, with time its not ready yet, but I liked your responce, don't agree with all of it but liked it. So early man had this concept of stealing, yet even within their own tribes such things are prohibitted, as it has been said all is fair in love and war so currently we are discounting war lol. however, you stated that this concept often came from religion, yet ness, you said even at a young age, "cheating" was obviously wrong to you. This concept of wrong and or right is there with us like an instinct, it is then cultured possibly by religion. This concept of right and wrong isn't just what is conveniant or it wouldn't be universal, what we do and what we feel or "know" is often different, ie. some times even though I know something is wrong I do it any way. however, I'm going to make the presumption that we all agree that there is unanimously this concept of right and wrong that is underlying in us all simular to an instinct. this scientifically speaking would make it a law something observed often enough that it always hold true. We will call it "moral law" please don't dispute the name for staying on topics sake, call it what you will if need be. So moral law is some thing that always happens within us, yet it is something that is very different from the natural laws we are acustomed to such as the law of gravity. this law is not physical, its inside us, in our minds. Well? where did it come from? Evolution? Idk, that doesn't really make sense to me because this moral law doesn't coencide with survival of the fittist, it actually often goes against it. I'm hungry I'll take the muffin and eat it would be survival, i'm hungry but the muffin is not mine so I won't eat it or guilt from doing so shows the moral law. What about some thing else, don't scream religious freak or christian or bible banger at me, i'm just saying hypothetically what if there is something else out there that made us with this thing? Say the It, made us and It must have some sort of standards so It passed them on to us. What do you think one of these two or elswhere?
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Postby greeney2 » Thu May 07, 2009 7:06 pm

When I was doing it, I knew it was wrong. Nobody told me it was wrong...I just knew it while I was doing it.


Boloney, you were told it was wrong a long time before the 3rd grade. You had to have been raised to know what is yours and what is not. You knew taking toys from someone else was wrong, and you knew the concept of knowing what is, and what is not yours. You learned to follow rules, and you knew schools have rules such as following teachers instructions, doing your own work, not copying, and not disobeying rules. It may have been tramatic to have been caught, but you already knew you were doing something wrong. Igt wasn't a blind instinct, it was a result of other training that started when you were a baby.
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