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New Discovery Substantially Reduces Air Friction Drag.

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Postby esecallum » Tue May 05, 2009 1:19 am

[quote="greeney2"]I wish my Dad was still living, he was an Areonauticl engineer, and actually taught wind tunnel. The idea is interresting, but if the shape of the airfoil and surface finshing creates the drag, I'm tyring to picture any internal induced vibration or ultra sonic waves physically affecting the drag in on the air at all. Obviously the size of the wing is a function of the difference in air pressure in order to lift the weight. Any lighter material would result in needing a smaller wing, so in that sense total weight is less drag becasue the size required of the wing. Total surface area has to reduce drag.[/quote

Thanks for your interest.

Here is a crude analogy. Now I am NOT saying is how this works but just a an illustration as a mode of action.

You have noticed if you put a juice mixer or any thing with a motor on a flat hard surface how the object will tend to have less friction and move and if the table is at a slight incline it will glide down the incline or just move away from its original position.

THIS THIS SAME OBJECT WHICH AS QUITE HEAVY suddenly seems to have less friction due to the motor inside it and lets it slide horizontally more easily.

A second example is a drill which will tend to slide across a hard surface when switched on.

This piezo acoustic transducer method seems related although the mechanism is not clear as to how it works.The possible modes are explained in the INITIAL post.

Modern aircraft materiels are quite advanced and more flexible and may be amenable to using this to reduce drag and a huge saving in fuel which could add up worldwide to large amounts.

Remember most aircraft are already subject to vibration anyway but this vibration is structured/controlled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectric

http://www.piezo.com/tech2intropiezotrans.html
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Postby Tairaa » Tue May 05, 2009 8:55 am

Piezoelectric, so you're using quarts eh? Is it the stabilizer for another power source or is it the sole power source?
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Postby greeney2 » Tue May 05, 2009 9:20 am

This is a very good question. I understand the affects of a hard vibrating surface making a heavy object move, by overcoming the static load of the weight of the object. The physical movement of a tabletop moves the object whos only force is gravity holding it down. I've not sure if the same theory would apply to air moving with volocity already, which is not a solid object but a gas. Gases react differently than a solid or liquid would, in same circumstances. Gas molcules fill the void around an object, but are they resting upon an object like a tabletop or a wing. Becasue a solid object has a solid lattice structure of atoms, such as a metalic grain structure, vibration would transmit thue the atomic stucture, where a gas could not.


The one differrence in elements that makes a metal a metal vs a nonmetal is that the atoms share electons in metals. They do not in non metals or gases. IN all solids atoms are arranged in a lattice structure of the atoms, but gases do not have a lattice. Long story short, and I'm not totally sure of the answer is that a solid, liquid or gas all would react differently to the examples you are giving.

It definatly is a very interresting concept, and would love to see real experiments and know how fisable it is. I have a few engineers I keep in contact with from my old company, and will ask their engineering opinion.
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Postby Tairaa » Tue May 05, 2009 9:40 am

Well, fluid dynamics apply to aircraft flying through the air, so it's possible.

While they are quite different, gasses and liquids are also similar in several respects.
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Postby greeney2 » Tue May 05, 2009 4:44 pm

Thats true tairaa, however gases do not have cohesive forces like a liquid. 2 drops of water when they touch will join and pull togather, so the drag on a boat hull would be trememdous since the hull has to also push large volumes of surrounding water away, with the water that contacts the hull, that multiply the force of the drag. The same volume of water can not compress like a gas would.
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Postby Tairaa » Tue May 05, 2009 7:39 pm

Yes precisely, a chemical that is a liquid has many times more atoms within a given area then a gas does.


But, with the example of the water coming together, air does the same too, you just can't see it.

If we could tune our eyes to see the flow of air you would be able to see what I mean. I'm no good at expression, but basically the best equivalent to your example, would be, two tanks of compressed gas that leak will continue to leak until external pressure is equal to internal pressure. Which doesn't sound like it has a lot to do with your example, but it is similar. :)

There are big differences between the fluid dynamics of a body of liquid and a body of gas. . Moreso in numbers then in phenomena though.
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Postby Jaack » Wed May 06, 2009 10:29 am

Tairaa

I must say I am impressed with your understanding of physics, and the physical sciences. Good show for an 18yr old.
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Postby Tairaa » Wed May 06, 2009 10:40 am

Well thanks Jaack. :)

Greeney- I missed part of one of your posts.

Becasue a solid object has a solid lattice structure of atoms, such as a metalic grain structure, vibration would transmit thue the atomic stucture, where a gas could not.


Absolutely, super low frequency vibrations don't carry well in gas. In fact they carry better the denser the object is, this is how we can roughly tell what the Earth is made of underneath the ground when Earthquakes occur.

However, this would only make the idea work better, for the vibrations wouldn't mess with the airflow around the craft past what is actually touching (and therefore the cause of friction) the skin of the craft.
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Postby esecallum » Tue May 19, 2009 6:31 am

Tairaa wrote:Well thanks Jaack. :)

Greeney- I missed part of one of your posts.

Becasue a solid object has a solid lattice structure of atoms, such as a metalic grain structure, vibration would transmit thue the atomic stucture, where a gas could not.


Absolutely, super low frequency vibrations don't carry well in gas. In fact they carry better the denser the object is, this is how we can roughly tell what the Earth is made of underneath the ground when Earthquakes occur.

However, this would only make the idea work better, for the vibrations wouldn't mess with the airflow around the craft past what is actually touching (and therefore the cause of friction) the skin of the craft.



The idea is to reduce friction between he air and the fuselage.Aircraft are already designed for vibrations from the engine, etc.

I am sure they could be designed for this also.

Here is an experiment you could do using a pc and pc loudspeaker.

drive your pc loudspeakers from your sound card which can be fed with sine,square or triangle waveforms from free sound wave generation software.

the loudspeaker can be attached to any object , e.g. a balloon or a model aircraft vessal.

air is fired at it from a hairdryer .airflow could have added smoke, etc but not essential.

the force acting on model or balloon measured as waveform/frequency fed to loudspeaker altered while air speed kept constant.
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Postby Tairaa » Tue May 19, 2009 10:52 am

I was more thinking of anchoring an airfoil to a block attached to some sensors to detect how hard the object tries to move up or backwards in accordance with the wind, inside a large PVC pipe with fans at either end.

Not exactly a too-scale test, but I can certainly work with it enough to get a feel for the phenomena. In the event that I DO find the time and resources to do this I'll be sure to organize it into a scientific manor and offer any findings to you.

Whereas the balloon example I couldn't very well tinker with variables and bring any useful data out of it so it would solely be for interests sake.
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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