The Black Vault Message Forums

Discover the Truth!        

Religion & Spirituality

The Bible ~ spiritually inspired?

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby event_horizon » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:29 pm

frrostedman wrote:your false claim against greeney regarding tele-evangelists


He didn't deny he watched televangelists after I said he probably did, after he mentioned watching a religious person speak on television. So, naturally, I thought he did. Get over it for whatchamacallit's sake.

frrostedman wrote:your false claim that I think we're all part of a Sims program,


I didn't say anything about Sims.

frrostedman wrote:Furthermore, I have always tried to be careful not to suggest that though I believe certain things are possible, even probable, that I think they are absolutely true. I don't know that the universe is a hologram. I don't know the brain operates like a hologram. I don't know that our reality is an illusion. But I've read enough about the theories and seen enough written argument and scientific backup to form an opinion in support of it.


I was simply asking you a question. A question mark looks like this ---> ? You're acting like I was accusing of something. Lay off the soda pop dude.

You said this:

frrostedman wrote:How do you know your life didn't begin a day ago, an hour ago, a second ago; and all your memories are false? You don't know that and you can't prove your way out of it either.

Now obviously I'm playing "devils advocate" but I'm sure you get the point.


You were talking about being placed here "a day ago" with "false memories". I asked you about the universe being put here 6,000 years ago. I didn't say anything about "false memories".

It's reasonable that I'd ask you that question since one of the main theories in hologram theory is that the universe could have been placed here at any point in time. And you also believe in the bible, which has a 6,000 year timeline. Hence, the reason I asked you the question.

frrostedman wrote:I wish--though it's your choice obviously--that you'd quit bothering yourself with why I believe things and instead concern yourself with what it is I believe


I'm not necessarily "concerned" about either. Hey, if you want to keep it an ancient Chinese secret, that's cool. Nobody's twisting your arm here man. Many people are curious as to how certain people come to their beliefs. It's a natural human instinct to ask such questions. <<<newsflash>>>...you're in a religious forum...these questions are going to arise. Sorry you got your panties all bunched up over it.
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
User avatar
event_horizon
 
Posts: 1621
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:51 am
Location: Colorado

Postby event_horizon » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:34 pm

rath wrote:
event_horizon wrote:To me the "Hologram Universe" theory is just a new fad for the techno-age.


No it not ....... The Holographic Universe has always been part of the string theory,
& the parallel Universes / multiverse theory.


I call it "a new fad for the techno-age" because it only became popular after "The Matrix" movie.
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
User avatar
event_horizon
 
Posts: 1621
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:51 am
Location: Colorado

Postby rath » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:09 am

shadowcass wrote:It is interesting how the latest theories mirror the teachings of the ancients, isn't it?



or the old theories never left us .......

Take the belief in reincarnation.

people claim to believe in reincarnation ......... & yet they don't comprehend its connections to the modern world.

one soul per person ...... :roll:
Image
rath
 
Posts: 4344
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby event_horizon » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:42 am

shadowcass wrote:Wow. Okay, to begin. The "Hologram" Theory---the idea that the universe is all illusion---is hardly a new one. One finds it (or something very similar) in the ancient teachings of Hinduism. Where "all that we see or seem is but a manifestation of Vishnu's Dream."

I will quote from the writings of the late Joseph Campbell on Hinduism:

"Vishnu is pictured as the divine dreamer of the world dream. Vishnu sleeps on a great serpent, whose name is Ananta, which means "Endless." The serpent floats on the universal ocean, called the Milky Ocean. But this Milky Ocean and the Serpent and the sleeping God: these are all the same thing. They are three inflections of the same thing,, and that thing can be thought of also as the subtle substance that the wind of the mind stirs into action when the universe of all these shifting forms is brought into being. Vishnu, the God, sleeps, and the activity of his mind stuff creates dreams, and we are all his dream: the world is Vishnu's dream. And just as, in your dreams, all the images that you behold and all the people who appear are really manifestations of your own dreaming power, so are we all manifestations of Vishnu's dreaming power. We are no more independent entities than the dream figures in our own dreams.

Hence, we are all one in Vishnu: manifestations, inflections, of this dreaming power of Vishnu; broken images of himself rippling on the spontaneously active surface of his subtle mind stuff. Moreover, this sleeping god's divine dream of the universe is pictured in Indian art as a great lotus plant growing from his navel. The idea is that the dream unfolds like a glorious flower, and that this flower is the energy-or, as the Indians say. the shakti or goddess-of the god. I hope that some of you are recalling the counterparts of some of these images in the Biblical tradition. The waters that are stirred into action when creation takes place are comparable to those of the first verse of the Bible, where it is said that the wind or breath of god blew, or brooded, over the waters.

This metaphor represents the miracle of creation, bringing the world into being as a multiplicity out of the stillness of an unstirred sleep. And the bride of the divine being, coming forth in the Indian myth from the navel of a dreaming god, is drawn in the Biblical myth from the rib of a dreaming man. What was originally one has become two. And how delightful it is to see such an image-reflection of an aspect of one's own being-which was not present to consciousness before, and yet was there, nevertheless! So it is with Vishnu's dream. The god becomes aware of his own power and is delighted by the charms of his own power, as represented in the presence derived from him: the presence of his own dream, which is the universe. Thus, the universe is the dream-bride, or dream-goddess, of God."

It is interesting how the latest theories mirror the teachings of the ancients, isn't it?


Hardly.

shadowcass wrote:Do you want the Hindu Vrsion of the Big Bang Theory?

"Just think, Vishnu sleeps in the cosmic ocean, and the lotus of the universe grows from his navel. On the lotus sits Brahma, the creator. Brahma opens his eyes, and a world comes into being, governed by an Indra. Brahma closes his eyes, and a world goes out of being. The life of a Brahma is 432,000 years. When he dies, the lotus goes back, and another lotus is formed, and another Brahma. Then think of the galaxies beyond galaxies in infinite space, each a lotus, with a Brahma sitting on it, opening his eyes, closing his eyes."

---Joseph Campbell, speaking to Bill Moyers on the progam JOSEPH CAMPBELL AND THE POWER OF MYTH.

Ok...that's my contribution for this time...next?


Great...the ancient Hindu version of the Big Bang, brought to you by a 20th century person. :lol:

Neeeeeeext....
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
User avatar
event_horizon
 
Posts: 1621
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:51 am
Location: Colorado

Postby SmokinJoe » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:25 pm

rath wrote:
Smokinjoe wrote:

rath,

The Buddha lesson isn't about the existence of God or nonexistence. It's about the person asking the questions.



Buddha said, "I was not talking to you at all! You had not asked, I had not answered YOU. The first man who came was a theist, the second man who came was an atheist, the third man who came was an agnostic. My answer had nothing to do with God, my answer had something to do with the questioner. I was answering the questioner; it was absolutely unconcerned with God.

"The person who believes in God, I will say no to him because I want him to drop his idea of God, I want him to be free of his idea of God -- which is borrowed. He has not experienced. If he had experienced he would not have asked me; there would have been no need.


As a personal example, I use to be agnostic. I had experiences that have shown me that there is an afterlife and a Creator. So, I would never need to go and ask the question "Does God exist." This is what Buddha was talking about.




They not mutually exclusive ...... why do you think manking invented christian scientist's

Does God exist? ... is not the same question as' who or what is god?


Rath......HUH?!?

You appeared to be replying to my post when I said that Buddha's comments had nothing to do w/ God but it was all about the person asking the questions. Yet, your response is talking about GOD and if he exists and who/what is God? And you throw in a little "christian scientist" in the mix.

Yet, none of that has to do with my reply. Again, it's not about God. So I'm unsure why you state that it is about God, and apparently some christian scientist.

I'll say it again, if one experiences the the other dimension, other reality, afterlife .....(insert name here) and knows it to exist due to personal experience, then THERE IS NO QUESTION that needs to be asked concerning its existence or the reality of a Creator.
Dawkins thinks belief in God is an excuse to evade thinking in the scientific world. Sadly, he is ignorant to the list of christian scientists who have contributed & founded many of the sciences he himself believes in. How ironic.
User avatar
SmokinJoe
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am
Location: OHIO

Postby SmokinJoe » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:38 pm

Shadowcass,

I see that you refer to Vedic texts and the Nag Hammadi collection often. I've read some of each, but not all of either. They are extremely interesting.

I have read about Vishnu and all of this reality simply God's dream. Also, I've read about the flying Vimanas and the 'rockets of fire' that they shot at each other in the sky.

Interestingly, the description of the destruction of one of the cities in vedic lore sounds exactly like the descriptions given after we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Did you know that some of the books currently banned from the Bible have been voted in and back out again of the Bible throughout the centuries? If you were a christian living in, I believe 1400's, you would have add approved books like the Apocryphon of Peter as well as a few other 'banned' books to study from.

I mention Peter's book only because it has a completely different version of the end times and a totally different concept of Hell. And it was an official book taught from by bishops before 325 AD and at different times since then.

Who knows, maybe this pope will vote it back into the Bible in the next couple years.
Dawkins thinks belief in God is an excuse to evade thinking in the scientific world. Sadly, he is ignorant to the list of christian scientists who have contributed & founded many of the sciences he himself believes in. How ironic.
User avatar
SmokinJoe
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am
Location: OHIO

Postby rath » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:25 am

SmokinJoe wrote:
rath wrote:
Smokinjoe wrote:

rath,

The Buddha lesson isn't about the existence of God or nonexistence. It's about the person asking the questions.



Buddha said, "I was not talking to you at all! You had not asked, I had not answered YOU. The first man who came was a theist, the second man who came was an atheist, the third man who came was an agnostic. My answer had nothing to do with God, my answer had something to do with the questioner. I was answering the questioner; it was absolutely unconcerned with God.

"The person who believes in God, I will say no to him because I want him to drop his idea of God, I want him to be free of his idea of God -- which is borrowed. He has not experienced. If he had experienced he would not have asked me; there would have been no need.


As a personal example, I use to be agnostic. I had experiences that have shown me that there is an afterlife and a Creator. So, I would never need to go and ask the question "Does God exist." This is what Buddha was talking about.




They not mutually exclusive ...... why do you think manking invented christian scientist's

Does God exist? ... is not the same question as' who or what is god?


Rath......HUH?!?

You appeared to be replying to my post when I said that Buddha's comments had nothing to do w/ God but it was all about the person asking the questions. Yet, your response is talking about GOD and if he exists and who/what is God? And you throw in a little "christian scientist" in the mix.

Yet, none of that has to do with my reply. Again, it's not about God. So I'm unsure why you state that it is about God, and apparently some christian scientist.

I'll say it again, if one experiences the the other dimension, other reality, afterlife .....(insert name here) and knows it to exist due to personal experience, then THERE IS NO QUESTION that needs to be asked concerning its existence or the reality of a Creator.



The short answer is ..... because i think your wrong.

& Im not saying your wrong and im right, Im just saying i think you have taken Buddha's words the wrong way.

A ..... what buddha said, has everything to do with weather or not there is a god.

B .... Asking the question is not the point of life and the there after.

Any dumb shiit can ask the question, is there a god & why am i here?

But rather seeking an answer is how one obtain's a higher understanding of the world / universe.

C ...... Buddha believed in reincarnation.


& There nine consciousness in Buddhism. ( more in other faith's)

& Buddha lived in a world that had much less then 6 billion people in the world.

I'll say it again, if one experiences the the other dimension, other reality, afterlife .....(insert name here) and knows it to exist due to personal experience, then THERE IS NO QUESTION that needs to be asked concerning its existence or the reality of a Creator.



Then they may have reached level ONE, of nine levels of consciousness.

However reaching level one is not the same as passing level one.


& does not tell you if there is a god or not .... nor does it tell you if god is a well GOD or if god is a talking Potato.

Riddle me this .......

If reincarnation is the rebirth of the soul ...... Well lets face it .... When mankind evolved 400,000 odd years ago ...... there where around 50,000 people on earth .....

Today it's more like 6 Billion people.

Now remember ..... one soul per person.

So if 400,000 years ago there where only 50,000 sould on earth ...... & each soul is reborn to a body meaning one soul per body ....


Then there is still only 50,000 or less now .... & yet we now have 6 billion bodys on earth.

What do you think buddha would make of that.???

Like i said .... anybody can ask the questions, but not many have found the answers.

& that is why they invented christian science.

To try and fill in the gaps.


if one experiences the the other dimension, other reality, afterlife .....(insert name here) and knows it to exist due to personal experience, then THERE IS NO QUESTION that needs to be asked concerning its existence or the reality of a Creator.


Your not making sense .......

Are you saying that proof of another dimension or reality, proves that God is not real ....... or are you sayng that proof of another dimension or reality, infact proves God IS real. ????


Please explaine.
Image
rath
 
Posts: 4344
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby rath » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:44 am

SmokinJoe wrote:Shadowcass,

I see that you refer to Vedic texts and the Nag Hammadi collection often. I've read some of each, but not all of either. They are extremely interesting.

I have read about Vishnu and all of this reality simply God's dream. Also, I've read about the flying Vimanas and the 'rockets of fire' that they shot at each other in the sky.

Interestingly, the description of the destruction of one of the cities in vedic lore sounds exactly like the descriptions given after we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Did you know that some of the books currently banned from the Bible have been voted in and back out again of the Bible throughout the centuries? If you were a christian living in, I believe 1400's, you would have add approved books like the Apocryphon of Peter as well as a few other 'banned' books to study from.

I mention Peter's book only because it has a completely different version of the end times and a totally different concept of Hell. And it was an official book taught from by bishops before 325 AD and at different times since then.

Who knows, maybe this pope will vote it back into the Bible in the next couple years.


SmokinJoe wrote:Rath......HUH?!?


Sorry SmokinJoe i should have realised that you had only entered the conversation and was still catching up on the issue.

After all ..... this is the 3erd thread about this topic / ongoing discussion ......

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4292
Image
rath
 
Posts: 4344
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby at1with0 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:14 am

rath wrote:Riddle me this .......

If reincarnation is the rebirth of the soul ...... Well lets face it .... When mankind evolved 400,000 odd years ago ...... there where around 50,000 people on earth .....

Today it's more like 6 Billion people.

Now remember ..... one soul per person.

So if 400,000 years ago there where only 50,000 sould on earth ...... & each soul is reborn to a body meaning one soul per body ....


Then there is still only 50,000 or less now .... & yet we now have 6 billion bodys on earth.

What do you think buddha would make of that.???



Why would you think reincarnation precludes the birth of new souls?
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9183
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby SmokinJoe » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:15 pm

The short answer is ..... because i think your wrong.

& Im not saying your wrong and im right, Im just saying i think you have taken Buddha's words the wrong way.

A ..... what buddha said, has everything to do with weather or not there is a god.

B .... Asking the question is not the point of life and the there after.


You aren't arquing with me, Rath. You are arquing with Buddha's own words. I merely quoted him and agreed with him..Here is what BUDDHA (not Smokin Joe) said about the issue of God:

Buddha said, "I was not talking to you at all! You had not asked, I had not answered YOU. The first man who came was a theist, the second man who came was an atheist, the third man who came was an agnostic. My answer had nothing to do with God, my answer had something to do with the questioner. I was answering the questioner; it was absolutely unconcerned with God.

So, you are actually saying Buddha is wrong about Buddha's message. Buddha is nothing if not abundantly clear that his answers had nothing to do with God.

I did go on to say I feel Buddha's message is about the personal journey of the questioner. If one knows from experience, then the question is mute. And that is what Buddha is saying, he can't answer that question FOR anyone. They must find it on their own journey.


Riddle me this .......

If reincarnation is the rebirth of the soul ...... Well lets face it .... When mankind evolved 400,000 odd years ago ...... there where around 50,000 people on earth


I don't believe in reincarnation. It may be possible, I don't know. But, if reincarnation did exist, at some point that soul had to start it's journey. So, maybe 50,000 souls started about 400,000 years ago, and maybe 6 billion plus started more recently on their journeys. Who knows.

My personal experiences haven't given me any answers on this subject. So, I can't comment with any certainty either way.



rath's quote:
smokin joe's Quote:
if one experiences the the other dimension, other reality, afterlife .....(insert name here) and knows it to exist due to personal experience, then THERE IS NO QUESTION that needs to be asked concerning its existence or the reality of a Creator.



Your not making sense .......

Are you saying that proof of another dimension or reality, proves that God is not real ....... or are you sayng that proof of another dimension or reality, infact proves God IS real. ????


Neither. I'm saying I believe we all call it something different, but in actuality it's the same thing. Those who don't believe in an afterlife, but believe in different dimensions could still be talking about the same thing without knowing it. Who's to say that when we die here, our existence doesn't continue on in another dimension (or afterlife). And who's to say another dimension isn't the same thing as life beyond this one? We don't know.

It's not proof of anything. We may discover other dimensions in theory and never be able to reach them. Maybe physical death in this dimension is the open door to existing in the next one.



Sorry SmokinJoe i should have realised that you had only entered the conversation and was still catching up on the issue.

After all ..... this is the 3erd thread about this topic / ongoing discussion ......


Don't sweat it. I'm all caught up. I understand the discussion and commented on it. I read Buddha's words and agreed with them.
Dawkins thinks belief in God is an excuse to evade thinking in the scientific world. Sadly, he is ignorant to the list of christian scientists who have contributed & founded many of the sciences he himself believes in. How ironic.
User avatar
SmokinJoe
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am
Location: OHIO

PreviousNext

Return to Religion & Spirituality

  • View new posts
  • View unanswered posts
  • Who is online
  • In total there are 0 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
  • Most users ever online was 292 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests