The Black Vault Message Forums

Discover the Truth!        

Ancient & Lost Civilizations

Old Europe 7000–1700 BC

Here, you can discuss the Mayans, Atlantis, the Aztecs and other ancient and lost civilizations.

Postby sandra » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:27 am

Aquatank wrote:as for the venuses being prehistoric porn, from our times perspective maybe, from theirs maybe not. What is considered pornographic varies from place to place and time to time.


Well in the time of the gods and goddesses, what I have read, is that men had much more desire to depict gods and goddesses than mortals. And I'd prefer to think that much of the art was not manifestation of only sexual fantasies of the gods. Alot of those earlier times had alot to do with fertility, as well as I remember reading that for a good harvest a man and woman would be found exposing everything in the crop fields. I think almost all of the ancient art is translated with some type of modern ideal attatched to it, seems like it at times. Bionics thread in questions that make you think, about our physical placements of our reproduction organs made me think about alot of these things, as I believe alot of the ancient cultures new alot about it. About sexual power, magic, and creations, being centered around these things.


I might even say there is an almost survival of this in atleast Cathedral floor plans and entrances which are designed very vaginal: A vulva fulvum shaped entrance surrounded by men/saints, followed by uterus where the congregation is, the alter is placed where pooling occurs and generally two rooms of center to the back like ovaries, not to mention the phallic pillars holding the space open for all to enter and be "reborn" and the flying butresses that could represent fluid exchange.

Porn seems to be to modern a concept when compared to veneration.


Yeah, 'porn' does seem to be a modern concept. And I did have previous knowledge of the Cathedral floor plans, however I'd like to know more about the spiritual and religious significance of the placements. Along with I wonder how much the Vatican has of this ancient 'pornographic' art. My Uncle has a major in History, one of his, and I've tried to ask him about these things (he retired at 45 and now just sells and collects art, especially pottery), but its not a topic he'd rather discuss with me. lol
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
sandra
 
Posts: 3702
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:27 pm
Location: Minnesota US

Postby sandra » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:33 am

Aquatank wrote:Considering most peoples in the 8000BP and prior were nomadic foragers, I'm guessing they had some kind of portable shelter of some kind. Tents or teepees. If I was in charge I'd have favored teepees because the poles can be used as dual purpose travois, stretcher, and in a pinch maybe a lance against charging megafauna (atleast mine could have been they had the diameter of a popcan). The problem with such technology is skins and wood don't last long in so unless there are fixed settlements you aren't going to find post holes or anything generally.


Yes, and I wish I could find that article, because it mentioned holes being dug on the outskirts edge of teepees, in which I had never heard of. I've never heard of anyone sleeping in holes or ditches covered like teepees. Of course one reason- the only hole was to be in the middle for the fire, so this had really confused me, but the article was referencing much earlier times,, like way before the 1600s when the plains people started using horses and such for travel, which then allowed them to use bigger structures for teepees because the weight could be carried. And if that was the case, it had to come from much earlier times as well. Now I keep searching for the material of the article, which all I am now coming up with is more of the modern housing structures of the teepees and longhouses and such.
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
sandra
 
Posts: 3702
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:27 pm
Location: Minnesota US

Postby Aquatank » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:53 pm

I'm not saying the ancient art was sexual fantasies, but while I was walking today I wondered if the shift towards the pantheons and such was a philosophical-theological by groups that were trying to find got fed up with rituals that might have been becoming more hedonistic: pleasures of the Spirit vs pleasures of the Flesh sort of thing.

The church layouts, are what I term a survival. Survivals are interesting because most times the symbology got lost, and it just becomes the "traditional" way of doing this or that.

I can see how teepees and ditchs or more importantly holes go together quite readily actually. Simply put look at a real igloo. A pit is dug into the earth and the shell is placed over the pit. Its something about ground temperatures actually being warmer about 2 feet or more down. Now on the other hand a teepee doesn't have any protection a the bottom, a smart builder has an internal liner for air current reasons, but anyone whose slept in a tent should know you don't touch the wall if it is raining. thus a small circular ditch around a teepee would serve as a gutter drainage ditch to the insides from having a puddle of water in it. Atleast those are what comes to mind. A pit is dug in the winter and a drainage ditch is made in the rest of the year, perhaps even both at times.
Aquatank
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am
Location: Midwest USA

Postby sandra » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:26 am

Aquatank wrote:I'm not saying the ancient art was sexual fantasies, but while I was walking today I wondered if the shift towards the pantheons and such was a philosophical-theological by groups that were trying to find got fed up with rituals that might have been becoming more hedonistic: pleasures of the Spirit vs pleasures of the Flesh sort of thing.


Oh yeah, I know you weren't saying that, however percival was suggesting more in paleolithic times that statues such as that of the Venus could be more physical adornment than anything, which I do not believe. Although it doesn't look like percival is even around the BV anymore.

And some of the art could have possible been sexual fantasies, however not how we would perceive them in modern contexts. I think you are right about there being a philosophical influence in the transformation of many of the rituals and their meaning (if thats what you were meaning to say). Even in Ancient Greek from the worshipping of gods and goddesses, I think many things were transformed by what was later written.

I've done a bit more reading on the statues that are more paleolithic, and I believe I read that in neolithic times, a figure physically similar to that of the Venus one, 'Dobrogea the goddess of fertility'...had even more dramatic physical characteristics.

I was reading an insert from a Reichel Dolmatoff book, whom states that the father penis and mother vulva were the original shamans.- But I do not believe that was the Upper Paleolithic regions, and I could not find any further information on that. Very interesting to me though. I think paleolithic people were primitive in the fact that their physical expressions were more microcosms, yet of a much larger spiritual superstructure, that most modern minds are not capable of understanding, as today physical and spiritual manifestations are of more equal value in eyes sight.

One hypothesis I read was that these paleolithic figures could have been used to stretch hymens open in woman hood initiations...and although I doubt that, it was still one of the more rare possibilities. I would like to believe with some of the others, that entrance into dwellings and caves were seen as entrance into more of a spiriutal realm, like an axis mundi.
Even today Native Americans believe the Lodge to be symbolism for the womb, that of a woman and mother earths, which is sacred. Also reminds me of Delphi from Greece which is translated to 'womb', 'mother earth' etc which is a axis mundi. With the axis mundi symbols and appearance taking place in pretty much every culture in the world, I'd like to think these figures like that of the female figures were more a microcosm and one of the most earliest physical manifestations of the axis mundi symbolism which represented the connection to life, even on a cosmic level. Some of the arts depicting women in paleolithic times are thought to show the significance of the power of womanhood, not just motherhood, I really believe that, along with the fact that there are far less of these figures impregnated.

And with almost all of the earlier figures having no legs or arms, it reminded me (many axis mundis are depicted as trees and such in later times) of a more microcosm, that of the female reproductive system,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray34.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray589.pngand even far more of a microcosm, the fertilization of an egg. Along with a female pronucleus.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2004-05/1085534032.Ge.2.jpg
The point is, I think the physical representations of these figures
are much more than what anyone has yet suggested they spiritually meant...and the shapes of these figures, can be seen throughout many other physical representations.
Just like I know some archaelogists are not always sure if it is female or male that some of these figures are, because male organs can appear much the same, like the frenulum and urethral opening. I think these figures suggest a portal of spiritual importance, very much so. Maybe that sounds way out there to most people but portals come in endless amounts of symbolism, and why not start at the very center of the Human Body. :mrgreen: lol

In some cave art, umbillica cords are depicted coming out of women with scenes in which animals are also in, you know what possible fantasy could that be? Ok kidding, but really.
There were obvious significance to these things while some would like to believe almost all cave art did not have a sense of physical reality, although their spiritual beliefs I'd like to believe were much more radical. They had to work harder spiritually to physically manifest things. Which makes me more prone to believe that anything at that time that was physically manifested, objects/art and otherwise had great spiritual meaning attatched to it regardless if it appeared to have a simple physical use. Like some of the hunting tools. That time period I see they really exerted their imagination. Native Americans to this day keep the little parts of the cord, and hold it in a medicine bag, as it is viewed as spiritual protection and physical health for the childs future. Well I just wanted to add some more of my own thoughts on the figures like the one of Venus.

The church layouts, are what I term a survival. Survivals are interesting because most times the symbology got lost, and it just becomes the "traditional" way of doing this or that.


I think alot of symbology did get lost, although I think alot of it is still here, yet we continually change 'how' we do things, along with 'why' we do them. Although the church layout is definitely a survival, now I see more of what you mean, less tainted like? Although most people are completely unaware of why a church would have such a layout, so in reality its physically survived more.

A pit is dug in the winter and a drainage ditch is made in the rest of the year, perhaps even both at times.


Thats what I couldn't figure out, if both could be used at times, and I seriously did not know that the ground of igloos were dug out. Of course the ground would have to be cleared out.
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
sandra
 
Posts: 3702
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:27 pm
Location: Minnesota US

Postby Aquatank » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:36 am

Oldest known porn 7200BP discovered circa 2005, Not how this is also the oldest known male depiction as well.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/ap ... ts.germany

You're really going to like Gambutas' book, one of the controversies is that she says there is paleolitic writing of a sort on some of the items, while her detractors casually dismiss the claims. My opinion is this if one can draw, that means one has made a symbolic connection, hence the move from that to telling an idea through drawing is quite simple, hence a system of writing was probably around, how good it was at communicating the intended thought is a different matter, even in todays writing a simple poem can get some very odd interpertations.
Aquatank
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am
Location: Midwest USA

Postby Aquatank » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:49 am

Suggestion keep an eye on this story: Woman X or X Woman in the 30000BP -50000BP range, it's my opinion we still have living cousins who look enough like us that we don't even know they are there, but they may well know they aren't us. http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/03/ ... a-siberia/

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/sc ... 00812.html
Aquatank
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am
Location: Midwest USA

Postby sandra » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:14 pm

Aquatank wrote:Oldest known porn 7200BP discovered circa 2005, Not how this is also the oldest known male depiction as well.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/ap ... ts.germany

I need to find a visual of this, especially since you say it is the oldest known.
I'd like to see how this compares to other stone figures. What are you defining as porn and not porn? Because of this specific depiction?


You're really going to like Gambutas' book, one of the controversies is that she says there is paleolitic writing of a sort on some of the items, while her detractors casually dismiss the claims.

Yep- I can't wait to get into it. I'm sure its reading material I'll really get into. I'm moving in to my new place next friday, I'll be able to order it.

My opinion is this if one can draw, that means one has made a symbolic connection, hence the move from that to telling an idea through drawing is quite simple,


:lol: Yeah thats what I would think just the same, however I understand how hard conclusions like that can be to make for those time periods. Its simple for you to understand, but look how difficult for others just to make that connection. I'm sure to them it was monumentous at times. I'd like to think that even if they are simple markings on objects, their minds were very wondrous/creative/imaginative to the meaning.

hence a system of writing was probably around, how good it was at communicating the intended thought is a different matter, even in todays writing a simple poem can get some very odd interpertations.


Yeah even today it is like that, just in different terms. At times however, I do believe we are able to encapture the entire creative intent behind what is being conveyed, and at other times, we are not, because it is places our imagination has not been.
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
sandra
 
Posts: 3702
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:27 pm
Location: Minnesota US

Postby sandra » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:23 pm

Aquatank wrote:Suggestion keep an eye on this story: Woman X or X Woman in the 30000BP -50000BP range, it's my opinion we still have living cousins who look enough like us that we don't even know they are there, but they may well know they aren't us. http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/03/ ... a-siberia/

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/sc ... 00812.html


Thats one heck of a heads up, thanks. 8-) Now did they just discover someone that will give more answers into the rhnegative factor, for these 5% or more of the population whom believe they are more evolved? I'm teasin of course.
hmm lets stay posted on this, its absolutely amasing news...and I don't want to miss the first few things that come from it.
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
sandra
 
Posts: 3702
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:27 pm
Location: Minnesota US

Postby Aquatank » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:16 am

I'm being overly simplistic , and not terribly serious in defining it as porn: as a depiction of humans copulating or similuated copulation. Having seen depictions all my life I can say there is: "Bikinis don't count that not porn", oh nude art, beautiful, blah, holy cow thats hot, bizarrely hot, bizarre and the "who does something that despicably unspeakable mean" and various other degrees. I realize for some all of its lumped into the unspeakable category though.

The statue itself looks a bit like dung, though it clearly isn't. In point fact it looks like two people lying down and hugging. Falling under my silly categories as "afternoon soap opera porn" or "museum art porn" see article has pic
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/1 ... 03418.html
Aquatank
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am
Location: Midwest USA

Postby sandra » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:38 am

Here you think it looks a bit like dung, and I'd be inclined to agree, and one man in the article states 'these people were clearly obsessed with sex'- and the figure is close to microscopic. I like your descriptions along with 'and various other degrees' :lol:
:? lol Oh that was funny to read.
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
sandra
 
Posts: 3702
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:27 pm
Location: Minnesota US

PreviousNext

Return to Ancient & Lost Civilizations

cron
  • View new posts
  • View unanswered posts
  • Who is online
  • In total there are 0 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
  • Most users ever online was 292 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests