The Black Vault

(a mother daughter question is along the same viens and would be great as well, to get some feedabck on))

That's a really good point and worth looking into. A 'good' man could probably help his mate with that.

Orange Tom mentions men's ability or lack of it to really navigate their own emotions..I feel men, some men, many men?..who have daughters can sometimes get in touch more with that side of themselllves throught their daughter/s

I think I have witnessed tha tbefore.

Orange Tom,
You made a really good point/observation about men and their emotional landscape and the pressure they are under, perceive themselves to be under.
Pressure they put on themselves, pressure society outs on them, pressure their mate and offspring put on them.


The women's movement has helped with that a bit, i think. At least in the material, brining goods to the table, kind of way.
But it seems to have really put more pressure on them on the emtional/connecting kind of front.

I really believe that people who feel that modern society (at least in the US) is innadvertently trying to feminize men way too much. Boys will be boys, after all.
I think all the young boys dx'd with ADD are an example of this (yes..many of them have it..but alos..how mnay of them are simply "gulty" of being rambunctious boys?)

I guess the direction this thread might be taking is one that asks us to question people's roles in society, in general? Especially along male, female lines?

One thing is for certain our roles are in major transition right now (yet, maybe they always were)

Sheye,
I have to give credit to Native Alien (another poster) for this thread. He had actually brought the subject up in another thread and I felt it deserved it's own thread..so I started one here.

And, to be honest, I started it at a time while I was still, very much, wounded and hurting over my own mates deception and infidelity.
I was lashing out all over (hey Lash.."lashing"..ah..a light goes on)

Sandra,
You are a youngish single gal and might have the healthiest attitude about it of all of us here. (though it might come from innocence/naivete..not yet 'burned/smellted' by life enough, as yet..but that's my inner bitter cynic speaking, there)

That's your generation though, thefemales. I see much in your generation of ladies that I admire. (and perhaps covet?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A

Sandra,

My list doesn't exist. I have no time to contemplate what I can offer a man and what a man can offer me, in worldy terms, that is of no use to me right now.

Thats one of the issues with men today, now a days if they are helping along in a house hold financially they would like to think that is the only thing required of them to bring to the table.

If you consider conditions, risk, yes,,,,I need a risk taker, all else can't hang ten.

No problem here Sandra,
I think we understand now that you are dealing with a man here.
We have belabored the point enough now. Thanks,


sheye and bionic,

I think I will elaborate a bit more on a point I made earlier..expand it out a bit for clarification.

About RISK in men and what it does to them...year in and year out. This too is seldom spoken about..even among men. I have tried to define it and see what most of the males in my group of workers think and they are stunned. Silent. speechless. All they seem to be able to say or add is yes..or no. They seem unable to elaborate on it. I am not sure if it is because they are afraid of certain vulnerabilities or they simply cannot deal with a concept outside of running a touchdown.
Sports conditioning. Perhaps they simply are not accustomed to speaking of this concept.

What I am talking to them about is their emotions.

What most women do not sense about men in RISK is that when men take or work in such RISK taking environments..they ..by conditioning ..by knowledge, wisdom if you like..tribal knowledge would be another word...they know instinctively to stow or shut down their emotions. Switching instead to dicipline and training to get the job done and stay alive ..uninjured.
If they don't ...they can get themselves and other killed or maimed for life. If you know of what I am speaking..in this type of environment..there is a trust here among the workers. If you cannot make the grade and others have "no confidence" in you ..it can be as brutal if not more so as those women I described at the Christmas party...watching other women.

A man shutting down his emotions to reach a goal..earn a living ..becomes a lifestyle to many.
The command..the demand..the condition or list of conditions of a woman over her man ..can become a huge burden compared to what he just left on the job.

The condition and irony ..is that the same discipline which he must master to make his monies and bring home to woman and children ..alive and in one peace...is his downfall in the lack of mastery..because he often cannot switch rolls fast enough to meet her conditions or the children's conditions. Especially in a household without any Peace.

Women who are now in the workplace are discovering this glaring truth for themselves.
The big difference is in male verses female socialization. Women have a much bigger social network of help in this arena.
Men generally do not. Males do not socialize in this line of thinking verses sports conditioning to run touchdowns. Which is nothing more than conditioning for more risk taking...more emotional isolation.

This is especially true if his woman does not understand Peace..verses her conditions..her list. Got it now??

This is also how and why I know that most women though they may not know of this pattern among men...they are not interested in this type of traditionally male work involving such RISK.
They prefer a type of work which better suits their personality..verses one which may pay more but involve RISK. Work which meets more of their emotional goals..ie ..options.
Now are all women like this...no but it is more common than spoken aboutl Most males are oblivious to this pattern..even among themselves. It is actually pitiful in a way.

sheye,
this is interesting.

I think you would be surprised at what most women want,deep within their heart,and I think one of those things is to truly see the men they love(including brothers, fathers, friends, uncles ,as well as intimate lovers) be happy,feel secure,loved,but that is not always easy,because it is a dance that requires careful footing at times,

Ideally they would probably like this..but I also know that most women do not want a sensitive man per se..they want a man who is sensitive to them. There is a difference here.
It is indeed a dance requiring careful footing..well said on that Sheye.

Gotta clean up here..been making home fries here tonight.

thanks,
Orangetom

No problem- When I said first fruits had better be godly, I meant that. I don't care what a man can offer me worldly terms, If a man offers a woman real nourishment, we are very capable of unconditional love. When a woman can accept these gifts and grow in understanding of God from them, a man becomes very capable of unconditional love for her just the same.

Peace is not impossible, but it is not without real love, also provided from God. A woman can put a man first when he can provide what is really needed, not wanted. A man can appreciate a woman, when what he gives her brings her closer to him and god. His labor becomes worth that cannot be replaced....and women want that. Men want that....but I haven't seen much of it, and I dedicate my time thinking about god in other ways. To be part of a mans fruit, in a real sense. That is what I mean by risk taker. Risk taker in belief. You lead me into sharing something I didn't want to by irritating me...you knew what you were doing.

orangetom wrote:

Ideally they would probably like this..but I also know that most women do not want a sensitive man per se..they want a man who is sensitive to them. There is a difference here.
It is indeed a dance requiring careful footing..well said on that Sheye.

Gotta clean up here..been making home fries here tonight

.

I really hope you are incorrect about most women, although I think all women
want a man who is sensitive to them.
but also a man who is sensitive to worldly things,
who is a friend to humanity,in the sense that he is as sensitive to his neighbors, as he is unto himself.
a man who knows how to love himself with sensitivity,grace,and dignity
and loves the women in his life , using those same attributes.
By women I do not mean multiple "intimate relationships" like that of Solomon, but more the variety of relationships a man finds himself in through out his life journey.
That being, a son to a mother and father, a brother to siblings, a friend to a friend, a boy friend to a girlfriend, a husband to a wife, a father to a son,a father to a daughter, a beloved grandfather to his grand children.

Hopefully the dances in these different and varied relationships,
have much joy ,and quick stepped gaiety at times, and can recover from stumbles, trip ups and broken toes.

Thank You so much for posting ,
sincerely Sheye.

p.s (how did the home fries turn out..they sounded good, looking at them in text,and I developed a craving )

Sheye,

Been busy here of late. Not much time for the boards.

The home fries turned out well. I am consuming the last of them. As I said ..been awhile since I've made any of them.

Have a nice pack of chicken boobs to cook up soon. Planning to do them as chicken strips.

Concerning this dance of life....

I myself do not have much use for worldly things. I am not that interested in jumping to this ever changing tune. Not for me. This is historically an ever changing wind. It can just blow on by me.
Now if the woman I am with wants to jump to it....go ahead...sooner or later they are going to over jump on down the road...past the safety net. At which time the Peace will take a second seat..in order to support the jumping/dancing lifestyle. Not difficult to see. Keep on jumping and dancing. See ya!! This is called High maintenance.

I get along with my neighbors alright. I mostly stay out of their business and vice versa.
I think I told you I am not a day walker. I work night shifts. Prefer it that way. They are mostly day walkers.

That being, a son to a mother and father, a brother to siblings, a friend to a friend, a boy friend to a girlfriend, a husband to a wife, a father to a son,a father to a daughter, a beloved grandfather to his grand children.

Hopefully the dances in these different and varied relationships,
have much joy ,and quick stepped gaiety at times, and can recover from stumbles, trip ups and broken toes.

These are indeed good things.
The thing that a man knows..is that at some point with a woman or woman and children..he is going to have to take RISKS...to lead. This sometimes also means to STAND...And STAND ALONE.
For a man to do this ..he must have more than just social skills, Prettys, and pleasantries.
The things on your list are born of someone taking RISKS out here ..usually such that others can enjoy them in a peaceful atmospheres..and atmospheres in which many have no idea how they got that way. They don't really care to know.


Sandra,

No problem- When I said first fruits had better be godly, I meant that. I don't care what a man can offer me worldly terms, If a man offers a woman real nourishment, we are very capable of unconditional love. When a woman can accept these gifts and grow in understanding of God from them, a man becomes very capable of unconditional love for her just the same.

Peace is not impossible, but it is not without real love, also provided from God. A woman can put a man first when he can provide what is really needed, not wanted. A man can appreciate a woman, when what he gives her brings her closer to him and god. His labor becomes worth that cannot be replaced....and women want that. Men want that....but I haven't seen much of it, and I dedicate my time thinking about god in other ways. To be part of a mans fruit, in a real sense. That is what I mean by risk taker. Risk taker in belief. You lead me into sharing something I didn't want to by irritating me...you knew what you were doing.

This reads strangely to me. Mostly because of this statement.

That is what I mean by risk taker. Risk taker in belief.

So when a woman needs a man to take RISK for her ..he can give her risk in belief??
The appearance of risk taking ..the belief in Risk taking....not real risk taking!!?? She will be satisfied with that and give unconditional love??

Is that like the appearance of commitment..rather than commitment?? She will be satisfied with the appearance of commitment?? Without RISK?? Only the belief in risk??

I'm getting a bit confused here now!!??



Gotta shove off now.
Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

orangetom wrote:

These are indeed good things.
The thing that a man knows..is that at some point with a woman or woman and children..he is going to have to take RISKS...to lead. This sometimes also means to STAND...And STAND ALONE.
For a man to do this ..he must have more than just social skills, Prettys, and pleasantries.
The things on your list are born of someone taking RISKS out here ..usually such that others can enjoy them in a peaceful atmospheres..and atmospheres in which many have no idea how they got that way. They don't really care to know.

I for one do care about the "unknown " souls who have risked something of value,in order to make things better for the ones they care for, or even the ones they do not know,but wish to make it better for them anyhow..

I think I told greeney once ,that these are my kind of "saints",the ones that don't get "stamped" by the church, but have a seal of importance written on their hearts.

thanks for posting,
sheye

sheye wrote:orangetom wrote:

These are indeed good things.
The thing that a man knows..is that at some point with a woman or woman and children..he is going to have to take RISKS...to lead. This sometimes also means to STAND...And STAND ALONE.
For a man to do this ..he must have more than just social skills, Prettys, and pleasantries.
The things on your list are born of someone taking RISKS out here ..usually such that others can enjoy them in a peaceful atmospheres..and atmospheres in which many have no idea how they got that way. They don't really care to know.

I for one do care about the "unknown " souls who have risked something of value,in order to make things better for the ones they care for, or even the ones they do not know,but wish to make it better for them anyhow..

I think I told greeney once ,that these are my kind of "saints",the ones that don't get "stamped" by the church, but have a seal of importance written on their hearts.

thanks for posting,
sheye

Awww- the kind of risk I was talking about.

Okay, I need a woman, here I've been looking for sheye this whole time.

Now wouldn't a man that lived his life in real service be worth all the godly fruit god could give him......and the women and children could surely be first consumers.

I'm off for my seal of approval.

Awww- the kind of risk I was talking about.

Okay, I need a woman, here I've been looking for sheye this whole time.

Now wouldn't a man that lived his life in real service be worth all the godly fruit god could give him......and the women and children could surely be first consumers.

I'm off for my seal of approval.

eeeewwwwww

ona second thought I'll take that as a compliment hun taaanks

and your statement about men is very true but I'm not sure how I like the term "consumers" ..kinda freaks me out a bit..like I'm a commodity

How about everyone stops making more babies and live the singellife.
Too much humans already!

Hmmmm, i have to think about this.

Awww- the kind of risk I was talking about.

Okay, I need a woman, here I've been looking for sheye this whole time.

Now wouldn't a man that lived his life in real service be worth all the godly fruit god could give him......and the women and children could surely be first consumers.

I'm off for my seal of approval.

So by this definition the women an children are leading and running things. The man is following and risking...but getting second third or whatever fruits are left over when the first consumers are done in the fast food lane??? That is ..if there is anything left after running the fast food lane. By this I mean he does not get the fruit for which he labors. Labors as God told him he would have to do..by the sweat of his brow. The fruit for which he labors is defaulted over to the "first consumers."

Somehow a woman in this role does not come out as a help meet but instead as a help yourself meet. And of course the children will follow because it is easier and required less commitment...less work...less risk. More emotions...less thinking..more "feeling."

This is risk taking?? Or is it risk in belief??

That is what I mean by risk taker. Risk taker in belief

What happened here to the concept of Peace?? Or is it now only about being a good consumer??
Is this what womanhood of today is become?? Is this also a definition of unconditional love??

This is indeed confusing. LOL LOL..no not really..



Dark-Samus

How about everyone stops making more babies and live the singellife.
Too much humans already!

I know exactly what you mean...You will find this template if you read carefully at the United Nations history and practice/dogma.

You will also find it in the Georgia Guidestones.

The message is here ..notice carefully line one. This is a formula for good consumers.
Not thinkers or independent peoples..but controlled cattle...servitude. Nature conquering men..not men conquering nature.

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
2. Guide reproduction wisely - improving fitness and diversity.
3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
4. Rule passion - faith - tradition - and all things with tempered reason.
5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
9. Prize truth - beauty - love - seeking harmony with the infinite.
10.Be not a cancer on the earth - Leave room for nature - Leave room for nature

Georgia Guidestones here.

http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

Thanks,
Orangetom